Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 6 - This Reminds Me of a Crossover Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

layton sucks, but the best part of the game is probably his theme song
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DGS1-3 is super great. Probably the best case in the game.
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So I got just home from work and decided to get back to trying to beat More Chalices since I had about 15 minutes to kill before going to do something else, and I got it on like the third or fourth attempt.

I hate these chalices.
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It's not like you have to beat More Chalices! I skipped it on my replay, mostly just went and did the puzzles that were required or that I felt like doing.

more chalices i'm pretty sure is the most fun puzzle in the game!
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it's the only puzzle that i can actually remember, for that matter
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Paratroopa1 posted...

It's not like you have to beat More Chalices! I skipped it on my replay, mostly just went and did the puzzles that were required or that I felt like doing.

I can't back down from the challenge! It's like it's taunting me to beat it.

I actually like doing all the puzzles anyway.
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I don't hate it, I just didn't have the patience for it

Probably won't play anything today.
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It took me until the end of L-4 to realize:

Cantabella
Belduke
Bezella

jesus

i was gonna mention that i noticed that the first time through until i realized you were referring to the fact that the whole world revolves around a bell
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also, lttp beating oot is pretty neat and unexpected! lots of other 3D zeldas in the way, but oot only has 22% or so of the vote.
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Zelda discussion no thanks
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SeabassDebeste posted...

i was gonna mention that i noticed that the first time through until i realized you were referring to the fact that the whole world revolves around a bell

What did you think I meant? Just the fact that they all sound similar?

Bells and bells and bells and bells and bells

What is this the Shadow Hearts final boss or something
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Paratroopa1 posted...

What did you think I meant? Just the fact that they all sound similar?

I mean, I realized the 'bell' (I might have thought 'spell') motif, but it didn't occur to me that it was because the whole game revolves around a bell.
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Don't forget about Barnham

wait no

Anyway, I got to the Layton/Maya segment in Chapter 5, so the game stays pretty interesting for a while from here.
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All right, finally finished Chapter 5. Figuring out the trick to the fire pit was pretty cool, but ugh, that puzzle afterward where you have to fit Phoenix, Luke, and Espella into the back of the wagon is awful (or I'm awful at it, either way). Layton/Maya start the process of figuring out how magic works in Labyrinthia, and it becomes very obvious that this "Great Witch" is Darklaw because she has the exact same gestures. Barnham showing up at her mansion was pretty cool, too.
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Yeah, I actually ended up using a hint coin for the first time on that puzzle. Normally I don't use hint coins and just work on a puzzle I'm stuck on for a while, but I was mostly wanting to replay the court segments here, so I just brute forced my way through that one. I don't think I had to hint coin any others. Most of the puzzles in this game are a step easier than most of the puzzles you find in Layton games, with a few exceptions like that one and More Chalices (and also that stompy one) that do stand up with the tougher puzzles in the main Layton games (although there are FAR worse).

Is that one of the sliding block puzzles?

Those can be pretty rough. They're usually the hardest Layton puzzles.
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Yeah

It's the only hard one in LvW really, the other two sliding block puzzles in LvW are pretty easy

Yeah, it's the sliding block puzzle, although I feel like it didn't take me as long as it normally does. I've mostly avoided using hint coins this time around, although I used them fairly liberally on previous playthroughs whenever I'd get stuck.
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Playing through Chapter 6, where everyone gets back together again. The reunion scene is a pretty nice moment because there's a lot of emotion between everyone (except Layton, of course). It was also fun coming up behind Layton/Maya and investigating the Eldwitch Woods with Phoenix, Luke, and Espella from a different perspective. The Great Witch is also clearly leading us to solve all of Labyrinthia's mysteries, but it's still unclear as to why and that she's actually working to undermine the Storyteller.

I liked the TURNABOUT PUZZLE where Layton defers to Phoenix's outside the box style, mostly because of the presentation, where Phoenix has to HOLD IT and OBJECTION his way to the solution. It's just a lot of fun. Now we're working our way through the THREE SEALS despite the warnings telling us not to do it. It's weird that Layton talks about how Phoenix is ready to tackle any puzzle now even though he never solved a puzzle until they split up. Even Espella is solving puzzles now!
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LeonhartFour posted...

The reunion scene is a pretty nice moment because there's a lot of emotion between everyone (except Layton, of course).

lol
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Chapter 6 complete! Easily the shortest chapter thus far. Everyone teams up to solve the three seals (Layton and Phoenix working together again is pretty fun as they shout "Every puzzle has an answer!" in unison) and we find former location of THE BELL OF RUIN! Unfortunately, Espella freaks out about being Bezella again and runs off, and then we get a quick cutscene of the Storyteller going, "It begins."

By the way, do you remember how awesome the original Layton/Ace Attorney trailer was? I was just thinking about it and decided to watch it again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpxEQIe5jdw

The Storyteller's design changed a lot after that trailer! Also, I'm kind of sad some of this stuff never ended up making the final cut, like Espella actually protesting that she's not a witch or the "I'm going to be killed" thing. It'd have been interesting to see Phoenix and Layton butting heads in the game like they did in the trailer, too.
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Haha what the hell this trailer is so weird - it's like some totally alternate history version of the game that never happened, nothing that happens in it is anything like the events of the actual game. So weird!

We'll talk about this more later I'm sure, but I do really feel like they missed out on having Phoenix and Layton actually face off against each other - they try to do it in L-4 but it feels completely half-hearted and forced. It's funny how Layton and Espella seem totally different in that confrontation in the beginning of the trailer - they're both a lot colder.

The best part about having Phoenix and Layton on opposite ends in L-4 is presenting the wrong evidence as Layton.
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Haha, yeah. I think I skipped a couple of those at the end because I was tired and wanted to finish and had only 1 miss left and saves in LvW are the fucking worst. Seeing all the fail dialog in L-4 is a CHORE.

Yeah, it's tough getting to the Layton segment with enough marks left to see all the dialogue because I think you can only miss one thing beforehand since there are three total, and you have to filter through those ridiculous Vigilante testimonies.
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It would be fine if saves just left you at the actual point you were at, but they always throw you back like 1-2 minutes of dialog for no reason. It's the worst!

Yeah, the way they handle saves is dumb, especially when you're used to insta-saves from the main series. Do the Layton games work that way? It's been a while since I beat Curious Village, and I don't remember.
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Layton games don't have any situations where they would have the opportunity to work this way, since they're all basically like the Layton-based chapters of LvW. They're instant.

I'm not sure I ever ended up stopping in the middle of a lengthy story section when I played the Layton games. Since I only really saved while wandering around solving puzzles, there isn't really any text to replay.
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The initial trailer is much better than the final game and was one of the reasons I ended up disappointed by the game.
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I was randomly reminded of a great exchange between Layton and Maya when you first arrive at the underground ruins. Maya's like, "There's definitely treasure to be found here, Professor! My spirit medium's instincts are speaking to me!" And Layton just goes, "Spirit medium's...instinct, you say?" He's legitimately taken aback by that statement and doesn't know what to do with it for perhaps the only time ever.
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This is why Layton and Maya are a great partnership - she's like the only person that can actually leave the professor speechless

Let's send Professor Layton to Khura'in and see how he reacts.
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It's really telling the difference between the two series, actually, that Layton seems to accept the existence of magic a lot quicker than Phoenix, despite the fact that everything is supposed to have a rational answer in the Layton series, and Phoenix's series literally has spirit channeling.

Based on your complaints about Layton's character I think you'll like the third Layton game a decent amount more than the first two
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Paratroopa1 posted...

It's really telling the difference between the two series, actually, that Layton seems to accept the existence of magic a lot quicker than Phoenix, despite the fact that everything is supposed to have a rational answer in the Layton series, and Phoenix's series literally has spirit channeling.

I don't know if Layton accepts the existence of magic as much as he accepts that it exists to Labyrinthians, and he understands they have to operate with that basic assumption in mind. Trying to argue that magic doesn't exist is a fruitless exercise.

But Ace Attorney has supernatural skepticism even from people who've witnessed it firsthand, especially Edgeworth! Franziska is strangely the person who accepts it the quickest out of all the rivals and doesn't hesitate to use it to her advantage. Well, I guess Godot has no issues with it either because of Mia.
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I meant it more as a commentary about how despite a focus on skepticism, nothing in the Layton series makes a fucking lick of sense

Every puzzle has an answer, even if the answer is more puzzling than the puzzle itself.
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The beginning of Chapter 7 is really well done, with the four of them returning to a seemingly empty Labyrinthia, only to find a copy of the Final Story foretelling the death of both the Storyteller and Bezella. It was certainly an interesting twist to have him become the victim of the Final Story, although by this point, it should be clear that he probably won't die. Literally everyone is gathered around the bell tower as "Announce the Truth" plays and the Storyteller talks about Labyrinthia being free not only from the curse of witches but also the curse of the Story. It's interesting wording. We get a cutscene of what looks like Espella summoning a giant fire dragon and the Storyteller spreading his arms wide as it descends upon him.

Perhaps the more unexpected twist is Darklaw having Barnham arrested for treason after he explains how he pursued her into the Eldwitch Woods and noticed the Shades referring to her as the Great Witch. It's interesting that she doesn't deny the accusations and comes pretty darn close to confirming them, but she has Barnham arrested because he can't prove his accusation and lacks the resolve to see things through, particularly when it comes to doubting the Storyteller himself. Barnham says it's not his place to question his master, and Darklaw replies that this is why he failed. Barnham declares that he cannot accept that the Storyteller would choose his own daughter to be Bezella and to have her kill her own father as the finale to the Story. He never cared about the truth before meeting Phoenix and Layton, but now he wants to know why.

News of Barnham's arrest and Darklaw assuming control of the final witch trial reach the group via Constantine, who also brings a message that there's a vital clue awaiting them in the Storyteller's Tower. Now we split up into our traditional duos as we proceed toward the end.

It's weird that Espella is the defendant in three out of four cases here. Not even Maya accomplished something like that!
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I get really annoyed with how often this game flipflops between Espella attempting to out herself as Bezella and then deciding, wait, no, I don't want to do that

should've been defiant like in the original trailer
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Spent all day in St. Louis yesterday, so I didn't get a chance to play.
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Played a bit more today, and got to the save point in Chapter 7. Investigating the bell tower is kind of fun because there's a bunch of stuff up there to find and it actually feels a bit like an Ace Attorney investigation. Unfortunately, it's way too short, and we switch over to Layton/Luke for a fuller investigation segment.
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Chapter 7 complete! Another short chapter! We don't even get into the Storyteller's Tower proper. We just work our way up to the entrance before hitting the save point. I do like those puzzles where you have to insert numbers into triangles and get them all to add up to a certain number. Got it right on the first try this time around!

also I got really lucky on that Stomp It puzzle and literally solved it in the fewest possible moves without even trying
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Started the Final Witch Trial! I really like the look and ambiance of the outdoor court. That was a very cool stylistic choice there. I forgot about Maya's ridiculous disguise to prevent people from recognizing her. So good. Also, Darklaw has some really great animations, especially the afterimages from her claw, but man, her OBJECTION clip is so terrible. It's right down there with Calisto Yew for the worst one in the series. The cross-examination with Espella is kind of weird because Eve hops up onto the bench after the first round of pressing, and you're supposed to do the HANG ON thing with her afterward, but the game never gives you any indication that you need to do it. I guess it makes sense that Eve wouldn't react to a specific statement since she's a cat, but you'd figure the game would drop a hint or something!

Next up: Ugh, the Vigilantes.
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What is it with terrible female objection clips in this series? Yew and Darklaw are both inexcusably bad, and I never liked Franziska's much either

On the other hand, Athena's VA is great and Ga'ran's is really cool too