Board 8 > SeabassDebeste finishes Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff [spoilers]

(+) Yeah! (+)

ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 12

Recap: Cordelia comes back to life for just one day. She helps Angel with his Lindsey problem and then returns to the netherworld.

I had some idea this was going to happen, made stronger by the fact that Charisma Carpenter was billed as a 'special guest star.' And what I found is kind of weird, and feels kind of blasphmeous to say: I miss Cordelia Chase very badly. Angel, the show? It doesn't.

Because the fact is, the show was dragging. I'd have loved for Angel/Cordy to work out for the sake of both characters, but it wasn't working that well even on camera, and starting as early as her massive vision pains, Cordelia was already showing signs of becoming a liability on the show. I'm butthurt beyond belief by what happens to Cordelia on Angel. But you know what? I'm over it now.

Anyway, Cordy mostly spends the early part of this episode telling Angel that he's been corrupted, and in a nice role reversal, Angel is forced to defend his position at Wolfram and Hart. In the end, Angel proves himself good by exacting some old-fashioned fisticuff taxes from Lindsey, but I'm not 100% sure why this proves him non-corrupt. After all, Angel's the one railing against Gunn getting too cozy at his new role with his new powers.

Later, she's pure fun. She's pretty disgusted with Eve ('And I thought Darla was rock bottom'), and she's also similarly disgusted when Angel points out 'I can't just... torture her.' Her facial expression speaks volumes: Wait, why not? My favorite line: when she heads off to confront Lindsey. 'Yeah Angel, order me around all you want, but I know my rights...' (draws katana from the wall, Pulp Fiction-style) '... and I wanna see a lawyer.'

I'm glad that Cordy going away is so telegraphed. It reminds me a fair amount of the Cassie episode from S7 of Buffy. And like there, Cordy doesn't die from the actual fight, where she seems like flagrantly obvious collateral damage. Good stuff.

We're really deep into the season now, and I believe we've seen 'Previously on Angel' just once. Really fascinating. Let's see what remains.
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* Gunn laughs when Cordy is shocked that he has hair. 'What'd you think, I was prematurely bald?' (awkward silence) 'I wasn't.'

* I love Lindsey's motive for what he's doing: pure pettiness. The absolute best. Also I enjoy his reminiscence with Angel about when Angel kicked the vamp out the window in the pilot: 'It was a defining moment.'

* Lorne, on requiring his blood for the spell: 'Why don't they ever ask for the urine of an unclean? I've got plenty of unclean urine...' (Gunn draws a knife) 'Look, I'm making some right now...'

* 'How's Connor?' / '... Who?' THE BEST.

* Harmony so good. 'I'm so excited! You, and me, together again! So... how was the coma?'

* 'Spike... Spike who?... Okay. Spike's a hero, and you're CEO of Freaking Hell Incorporated.'

* Speaking of whom, he's playing the original Donkey Kong this episode! And mashing his right hand a lot... on an Xbox. Oh well.

* I feel like Supernatural happily steals the demon-warding Enokian body tattoos from Buffyverse here. Just some more examples of borrowed tropes!

* 'That's the type of person you do business with now. Do you realize what's happening? You've made a deal with the devil.' / 'Oh come on, Cordy, you're being a little overdramatic. It's not that -' / (Red-skinned, pointed-horned demon appears) 'I gotta go. Everything's in place. He'll draw up the paperwork.' / (shaking hands) 'Good, great.' / 'Racquetball Thursday?' / 'Okay then.'

* 'Spike! Heard you weren't evil anymore! Which kinda makes the hair silly...' (Spike goes vamp-face) '... or... nice?'

* 'And you call this guy the big hero?' / 'Did you call me a hero?' / 'I didn't know you were eating people.' (headbutt, both parties flinch)

* 'The failsafe's meant for me. I can't risk anyone I care about.' / Spike: 'I'll go.' / 'Okay!'
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Xbox Donkey Kong
zero stars
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My favourite little sidebar on this episode is when they go to pick up Cordy at the hospital and she pulls the curtain around her body, "That chick's in rough shape."

But yeah, this episode is "Hey, remember what you used to be about?" and it does it so well. Cordy coming back, finding the video of Doyle (the actual Doyle), Lindsey as an antagonist, no-one knows who Connor is...

<_<
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Also giving us some good Wesley and Cordy scenes, haven't had those since Waiting in the Wings.
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Episode 100, it was quite the gift
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SeabassDebeste posted...

* 'The failsafe's meant for me. I can't risk anyone I care about.' / Spike: 'I'll go.' / 'Okay!'

So good.


Also, I remember Cordy watching Doyle's awful commercial video made me really sad. Such a great call back.
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muddersmilk posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

* 'The failsafe's meant for me. I can't risk anyone I care about.' / Spike: 'I'll go.' / 'Okay!'

So good.


Also, I remember Cordy watching Doyle's awful commercial video made me really sad. Such a great call back.

Tears, every single time.
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doyle got done so dirty!
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 13

Recap: A figure returns from Angel's past, and we are shown in flashback Angel's conscription (by the fledgling Initiative) into the U.S. Special Forces during World War II. He infiltrates a commandeered German sub with the mission to bring it back to shore... so that the U.S. can continue its vampire research. Angel kills or releases all the vampires on board and is forced to turn the leader on board into a vampire in order to get the sub back to shore. That turned leader has returned and seems to be infected with Angel's soul, so Angel kills him.

It's both cheesy and adorable when you have creators who are so clearly fans like Joss Whedon. Not that the story justification of this isn't reasonable - I'll get into that. But you can see exactly, from a meta perspective, why they chose to tell this story.

It's fun to set an episode on a freaking World War II sub with 1940s aesthetics. It's fun to have characters talk about the good old days. And there's some creator's nostalgia when Angel and Lawson talk about how it was a simpler time back then. You generally get the sense that way back when, there were good guys and bad guys, and now we've got this cloud of grey. Whedon has an obviously difficult time reconciling the nostalgic idea that morality in stories was simpler and better back then, too. See Cabin in the Woods, a modern love letter to an ancient genre. He longs for those relatively innocent stories, but he can't unironically tell them without a framing device to make it possible and accentuate why the past is imperfect.

So yeah, we get some enormously cheesy, old-school dialogue. And we're constantly reminded that it was cheesy. And while it's a tough sell at first... in the end it's great.

Alright, so onto the meat of the episode beyond its aesthetic and meta qualities: Lawson proves a much more interesting character than he lets on at first. I love the way the tension builds throughout the episode. We know that Lawson's a bad dude now - but did he jump through time, or is he a vampire? Lawson mocks the suggestion that Angel's mission was to get the crew back to shore - do those vampires wind up eating everyone on the ship? It's a surprisingly good way to build suspense for an otherwise no-stakes past plot. (Again, I'm reminded of how ridiculous the Initiative feels - though the planting of roots for research into Spike's Chip is pretty cool.)

Speaking of Spike, talk about a pointless role this episode. Nonetheless, dressing him up as a Nazi is hilarious, and he fits amazingly well with the two ridiculous vampires with him, each of whom looks so distorted I didn't actually know they were vampires. Nostroyev is just an enormous douchebag all around and gets on Angel for having made his name by 'muscling around weaker vampires,' which Spike objects to. The 'Prince of Lies' - yes, that's his name, LOL - keeps shifting around and talking like Renfield in the adaptations of Dracula. My favorite Prince of Lies moment: when he starts cackling maniacally, only to realize he alone is laughing, then feeling awkward about it.

The emotional hook of this episode is entirely in the present. Lawson's back, and now we know he's a vampire. So why, exactly, is he seeking out his death? We find out that he's the only vampire Angel has sired since getting a soul, and unlike any other vampire we've seen, Lawson is very conscious of his lack of soul, bothered that he can't seem to find true enjoyment in his cenutry of slaughter. It's sobering how Angel has to dispatch of him. 'Does that mean I have [a soul] too?' *pause* 'I don't think it works that way, son.' A clear one-off episode, a lovely little reminder of the toll that a century and a half of ensoulment has taken on Angel.
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* Love that the big brother/little brother dynamic is very much intact on the sub between Angel and Spike. Spike doesn't seem to know Angel is ensouled, which is a plus on the continuity front.

* There's an unfortunately awful moment of cinematography early in the episode, where one of the subordinates points a gun at Lawson. As it cuts back and forth, the different camera angles show him with a different number of hands on the gun. Very distracting - and that's before how lame it is to manufacture drama with gun-waving.

* 'I'm telling you, he's some kind of supersoldier - like Steve Rogers, or Captain America!' / 'Steve Rogers is Captain America, you eight-ball.'

* Found it kind of surprising that Angelus never learned to read or speak German.

* 'Only you and your Fuhrer could come up with something this sick.' Dat irony.

* 'We all need a reason to live, even if we're already dead.'

* Lawson: 'Aren't you gonna ask me how I got in here?' / Angel: 'No. You'd be amazed at how many people break into this building on a regular basis.' THE BEST.
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I like this one, but next episode MAXIMUM HYPE.

Not to raise your hopes too high or anything. =P
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I am really looking forward to your reaction to the next one.
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time to smile then
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What you did there. I see it.
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whoops, i've seen the episode, writeup shall come
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I wanna talk about the Cordelia episode.

So, this episode really hinges on the Angel and Cordelia relationship. I think a lot of people were really iffy on that idea when they started pushing it in S3, and especially after the ickiness of Cordelia x Connor in season 4, but this episode really drives it home and shows why it works.


I think it's pretty clear Angel and Buffy S1-3 Cordelia would not have gotten into a relationship. She's petty and vain and self centered. She does help out with the team a lot, but she ultimately doesn't care that much about good and evil or helping the helpless. She's not a *bad* person, but she's stuck in her high school bubble, and isn't really thinking that much about the greater good. She would help if she saw something going wrong. Development for Cordelia mostly revolves around hings like falling from grace as Queen Bee of the Mean Girls, or by comparing herself to Buffy. Or dating Xander I guess.

It's interesting to note that Cordelia and Wesley were interested in each other back then - but they were both very immature characters compared to where they went after toughening up from a few seasons on Angel.

I'd guess that if you asked Cordelia to talk about Angel's personality or what makes him tick, she actually wouldn't really have that accurate of an answer - she just didn't really know him that well. Meanwhile, Angel had a sense of her being pretty vapid as displayed by his "it's great to see she's grown as a person" comment when seeing her in the Angel pilot.

So to begin with, no, these characters did not make any sense whatsoever as a couple.

Then Cordelia appeared on Angel and began a lot of growth as a character. She begins by being the administrative clerk to Angel Investigations, functioning basically as his assistant. She's mostly the same she was on Buffy - focused on the practicality of making money. Angel was pretty content to be a lone wolf and didn't consult very much with her, but it was the start of her attempting to support him. Over time she grows more invested in what they are doing largely because of Doyle. His death emotionally had an impact her by itself, but passing the visions left a more longlasting change on her life.

Seeing people in trouble had the direct benefit of providing missions for Angel to go help people with, but the more interesting effect was on Cordelia's psyche. She started seeing people in trouble, and couldn't help but want to save them. It's a different perspective than when she was Slayer adjacent, or for the most part was just letting Angel run off and deal with things himself. This made it all real for her. Seeing people being hunted, attacked, and murdered couldn't help but fill her with empathy and compassion. That bad guy in the S1 finale thought he was taking her out by hitting her with that mass visions whammy, but what he really did was reaffirm just how committed she was to the cause. When she wakes up from that coma, she talks about all the people she saw in danger, or being murdered, and waht she says is "We have to help them."

And as Angel says, "We will."


I think that's the point that leads to those two falling for each other.
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Over the course of the next season or two, you see Cordelia more and more involved in the business. Not just helping from the sidelines, but actually joining the fights. She trains alongside Angel, and they become comrades. She's certainly not fighting on the level of Buffy, Angel, or Spike, or even on the level of Gunn and Wesley, but she wades into battle constantly. And unlike in earlier seasons, it's not just because she's caught up in the trouble. She's there because she wants to be. Even when Angel goes all emo and abandons the team, she's still there keeping things together. Then when Angel returns to the fold, he makes particular effort to make things up with Cordelia, who he really let down.

Back together as a team, they work together more and more. As Fred says when she lays out the role of each member of the team - Cordelia is the heart. She keeps the team focused and together, and eventually Angel starts to notice this. Right under his nose, Cordelia has matured and grown into a practically different person.

But it's not until she's really gone does the effect she's had seem apparent. She's not really there for Season 4 - and as a result, the group dynamic practically falls apart. The relationships are all strained, Connor is basically a nightmare, and people are just straight up not nearly as happy anymore. It's actually very apparent on rewatches how poorly Jasmine fills the role of Cordelia in the group. Angel barely makes it through the season. Then S5 opens up and the team is swallowed by the beast known as Wolfram and Hart. This is a much more cheerful season in a brighter and structured setting, but there's constantly doubts about if they are doing the right thing. Because quite frankly, they aren't sure that they are.

Then Cordelia returns. It's just a short reminder of who she was, but it drives it all home. It's immediately apparent just how much Angel has been missing with her being gone. He needs her support, he needs her opinion. He needs her to tell him what to do. Because over the first three seasons of Angel, he grew to depend upon her and see her as a comrade and colleague that he needs. Someone who believes in what they are doing just as much as he does. That's why he fell for her, and that's why this episode has such a big impact on him. Right when feels like giving up on what they are doing, Cordelia shows up to remind him just who he is and what he's fighting for. Because after three seasons, she understands it better than anyone else.

I think if Buffy were to hear that Angel and Cordelia got together, she'd be shocked and dismayed that Angel would go for someone like her. But that would be a pretty uninformed opinion, because Buffy just doesn't know Cordelia anymore.

That episode was just a perfect capstone to both Cordelia's growth as a character, and to the relationship between Angel and Cordelia. She's truly grown to be a champion in her own right, (which I guess lorewise justifies why she's going off on her own otherwordly path). It's bittersweet that she and Angel don't to be together. And it's a great success of the episode to make you feel that way about a romance that seemed somewhat shaky and forced to begin with.


I certainly miss not having Cordelia around every episode, but this was just a perfect episode for her. It really highlighted the change and growth she's had since S1 of Buffy.


This got pretty rambly and I lost track of what I was even talking about many paragraphs ago but maybe this all made sense.
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episode 14

Recap: Angel investigates a kids' TV show (about puppets) that he suspects of stealing kids' souls. He promptly gets turned into a puppet.

Holy shit, Angel as a puppet is fucking funny.

Is there anything to analyze about this episode beyond that? Angel is one of the most self-serious characters in the series, and seeing him reduced to a bit of felt and cotton filling is spectacular.

Should we talk about how the puppet seemingly gestures way more than Angel normally does (and how this is played off as Angel's emotional maturities shrinking with his body)? ('Is there a reason you won't look at me?' / '... I'm hiding under my desk?') How about the puppet's eyebrows being its defining feature? (A spectacular scene early on as puppet-Angel watches and listens to the 'Self Esteem Song,' and you can just see dem eyebrows TWITCHING and GROWING ANGRIER - so damn good.) How about the fact that Angel in puppet form can still kick Spike's ass this way to Sunday? ('What are you people looking at?' (long pause) / 'They're looking at the wee little puppet man.' / 'STUPID. LIMEY. PIECE OF. CRAP.')

Avenue Q for the small screen. And it's brilliant.

It's not all puppet-Angel. I love that the episode misdirects you. I mean, not that it's not about Gunn affirming his dark side (or does he?! Gunn is one of the most prominently non-featured characters this season - when are we getting the explanation?), or that it's not about Wesley/Fred finally becoming a thing, or that it's not about the most prominent subplot of impossibly hot werewolf Nina trying to ask Angel out. But it all feels like smoke and mirrors when you realize what the episode actually winds up turning on.

And yes, the puppet villains are great, too. One of them is literally card Ratio Hornblower. The doggie has been working on a new song about the difference between an analogy and a metaphor, because he recognizes that aside from being evil, he's also foresworn to uphold a certain quality of edutainment. The lead puppet makes some really disturbingly orgasmic sounds when he's sucking souls, and the kids are suitably creepy with their smiles afterward, too.

Spectacular stuff.

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* 'I'm gonna tear a new puppet-hole in you!'

* Three more puppet-Angel sequences.

Nina: Are you okay?
Puppet-Angel: I'm... made of felt... and my nose comes off.'

Gunn: You wanna take out Smile Time, take out the puppets.
Puppet-Angel: Well then... *draws sword* let's take out some puppets.
*badass walk cut, with two-foot Angel at the vanguard*

Puppet-Villain: After all, it's Smile Time!
Puppet-Angel: No, it's not... It's time to kick your ass all the way back to hell.

* So Wesley and Fred finally get together at the very end of the episode, Fred evidently having broken things off with Knox. 'Is that clear enough for you?' Fred says, leaning in, come-hither all in her eyes. 'Not even close,' says Wesley, and the swoop together, finally consummating what we've wanted for Wesley since three y- SELF ESTEEM SONG KICKS IN holy shit I died laughing this episode did not disappoint in its final minutes.
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CoolCly posted...

especially after the ickiness of Cordelia x Connor in season 4

I'm sorry - who?

Great post on Cordy and her role on Angel. I think just about everything you say is accurate - though I don't necessarily draw the same conclusions as you do. Cordelia undoubtedly becomes a better fit for Angel as the series gets deeper. But to me, she's more memorable and awesome as the Queen Bitch from Buffy Season 1.

Cordelia comes into existence vain and shallow, but already magnificent, multifaceted, and pretty much amazing. The compassion is already there. To me, making her compassion #1, her capacity for love #2, and her lowering bitchiness all the way to 'recurring character trait' made her less interesting, even if it does represent a complete character arc. So I'm already not particularly for the premise of the change, but the implementation had a ton of bumps in the road. This might be shallow, but Cordelia just... she's not a great screamer. Her wails of pain sound like a baby instead of a damsel in distress. Which is fine - not a strike against her - but that sound is so frequently heard. I expounded on this at length earlier, but making the visions inflict physical pain/literally shorten her lifespan... well, it just isn't nearly as interesting as the psychic pain. (Look at Angel - compelling, angsty - suffers emotional pain from being a vampire but kinda enjoys being near-indestructible and having super-strength. Buffy, too, for that matter.) Also, making Cordy 100% good-guy kind of struck a lot of the inner conflict from her as well. She was just 100% unironically self-assured, all the time, which made her less compelling to me.

That said, the biggest reason I was against Angel/Cordy was because it was the most transparently 'not-gonna-work' pairing of the show's entire run (up there with Buffy/Spike).

(Again, I don't think anything you said was inaccurate! It just doesn't lead in a great direction for the show as a viewer IMO.)
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Oh god...next episode is....


HYPE
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One line that irks me is Knox's "Could be the Joker...YKNOW, FROM THE COMIC BOOKS?"

Like, no shit Knox, I thought you meant Joker the orthodontist.
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he could have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGpv3IjjmPA

May the Floss be With You
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Turducken posted...

One line that irks me is Knox's "Could be the Joker...YKNOW, FROM THE COMIC BOOKS?"

Like, no shit Knox, I thought you meant Joker the orthodontist.

Normally that type of stuff bothers me, but I think he did that because Fred gave him a blank stare.
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Yeah, that's definitely one of those moments where someone (perhaps wishfully) mixes up "didn't get it" blank stare with "thinks you're an idiot" blank stare.
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Yeah, I think I meant to say something at the end along those lines but must have forgot to do it before I posted and passed out. It's definitely fair to think Cordelia was at her most entertaining in Buffy - she was just on fire all the time.

But she was a side character back then, and had the luxury of behaving that way at every opportunity. I don't think that character could long term stay that way as a main character. I really enjoy what they did with her and how they decided to grow her.
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From the A5E2 writeup:

SeabassDebeste posted...

Most important of the 'new' Spike characterization: the way he and Angel interact now that both of them are good guys. If this quality of character interaction holds for the rest of the season, it'll be incredibly clear why this season is hailed as the best: because these two guys are absolutely fire together

All these episodes and they are just still on fire together.


lmao @ Puppet Angel leaving Spike battered in the elevator.
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htaeD posted...

he could have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGpv3IjjmPA

Well I walked into that one!
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CoolCly posted...

From the A5E2 writeup:

SeabassDebeste posted...

Most important of the 'new' Spike characterization: the way he and Angel interact now that both of them are good guys. If this quality of character interaction holds for the rest of the season, it'll be incredibly clear why this season is hailed as the best: because these two guys are absolutely fire together

All these episodes and they are just still on fire together.


lmao @ Puppet Angel leaving Spike battered in the elevator.

and spike laughing all the way
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RyoCaliente posted...

Oh god...next episode is....


HYPE

Fred > Illyria
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just went back and rewatched the self-esteem is for everybody

so good

CoolCly posted...

lmao @ Puppet Angel leaving Spike battered in the elevator.

yeah, this has easily been one of the highlights of the episode. that whole sequence is incredible. when spike realizes angel's 'condition' and the camera does this super-closeup...

in the meantime - I did watch the next episode... it's been a long time since I watched two in a row.
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Puppet Angel may be the best thing in the Buffyverse. Amazing. I may have to go back and re-watch that one.

Also I disagree with Tera's spoilers but I think I'm in the minority there. I never really liked Fred very much.
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ANGEL - Season 5, Episodes 15-16

Recap: Fred receives a sarcophagus, which infects her with the spirit of the Old One Illyria. Gunn is the one who pushed through the sarcophagus from customs, while Angel and Spike choose not to recall Illyria, because doing so will kill tens of thousands. Wesley watches as Illyria consumes and destroys Fred. The group moves in to contain Illyria as she attempts to raise her armies... but they're all gone. Instead of wrecking the human world, Illyria asks Wesley to help her adjust to it.

So, how hilariously typical is this? Wesley finally gets his girl, and in the next episode she's dead (by about as literal a deus ex machina as can be). Because of course. The imminent death of Fred also provides some cheesy moments, where the whole crew puts its heads together REALLY URGENTLY and we have a DRAMATIC SPINNING SHOT as they have a SERIOUS CONVERSATION about the COURSE OF ACTION. Angel DOESN'T WANT TO SAY IT, but HE'LL SAY IT ANYWAY: WINIFRED BURKLE. The plotline is also very unfortunately a direct echo of Jasmine/Cordelia - female character eaten from inside by ancient demon.

Minor cringe doesn't stop this pair of episodes from shining, though. Angel 5x15-16 has echoes of Buffy's heralded 5x16, 'The Body.' The cast searches furiously for a cure in the first half, but as a viewer, we know Fred is doomed - this episode is given to us as much as an opportunity to mourn Fred as it is for hoping that she'll somehow pull through. For a few scenes, Fred's face gets the Joyce treatment - unrelenting closeups to show us just what state she's in. And it's stunning - a zero-makeup look, with parched and cracked lips - a turn away from the Hollywood glamor that's become her go-to since returning from Pylea.

Props to Fred for going down with a fight: 'I am not the damsel in distress. I am not some not just a case!... I lived in a cave for five years where my kind were slaughtered like cattle! I will not be brought down by some monster flu. I am better than that!'

Angel's angst is kind of cheesy, but he gets one really great exchange:

Angel: I can't lose her, Spike.
Spike: You won't.
Angel: I lost Cordy.

This is the payoff for Gunn we deserved. We didn't get a centric episode around him, but that's fine - I wass always leery of Gunn episodes. Instead, the few minutes of screen time per episode he's received result in fireworks when Knox and the not-so-good doctor reveal the truth to him. Wesley having zero fucks left to give and stabbing Gunn also makes for a brilliant capper to their relationship thus far. 'I couldn't go back to being just the muscle,' Gunn sobs. And of course, that's the tragedy of Gunn's final arc - that he never believed Gwen when she told him that he was more than the muscle.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how Illyria goes. Her initial dialogue is very typical OH-WORSHIP-ME-y and intentionally archaic/formal-sounding, but over the course of her episode, it becomes more endearing than annoying. When she takes Spike's and Angel's swords and hisses, 'Unimpressive'... that's some Dark Willow shit right there. But it's her stranger in a strange land alienation at the end that's truly phenomenal. 'My world is gone.' She intends at first to be genocidal, but we're going to be in for an interesting character, which gets me super-excited. Also, she looks totally creepy and insane and that's awesome news.

Sorry for a scattered/undetailed writeup - the notes will ahve most of my thoughts.
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* Disclaimer - I knew vaguely about Illyria taking over Fred's body going in. I don't think it detracted, but it did influence my viewing of Fred.

* Angel, on getting impaled by Spike: 'You just like stabbing me.' / 'I'm shocked, SHOCKED, you'd say that! I much prefer hitting you with blunt instruments.'

* Cavemen versus astronauts isn't a particularly interesting debate, but Angel and Spike's reaction to being caught debating it is awesome. 'It was mostly... theoretical.' Wesley tries to mediate and explain how stupid it is that they've been arguing. 'You've been shouting at each other for forty minutes over this.' (really long pause) '... Do the astronauts have weapons?'

* 'You and me. This isn't working out.' / 'Are you saying we should start annoying other people?'

* The cough of blood from Fred is violently shot. It's beautiful.

* Fred overall was used primarily to advance Wesley's character. I'm glad she got her own focus at the end of Season 4 and toward the beginning of Season 5 so she could come into her own a bit. Now that said, Wesley is hardcore here.

Wolfram Schmuck: The whole company can't be working Ms. Burkle's case.
Wesley: Of course... (BANG) Jennifer? Please send anyone else who isn't working Ms. Burkle's case to me.

* Hey, it's Eve! She's not looking quite as composed as she was...

* Random Guy In The Crypt looks like a Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones character.

* 'Flash-fried in a pillar of fire - I got better.'

* Gunn definitely drops a Flash reference there. No one gets it. I barely get it.

* 'Astral projection? Is there any way you can get her astral over to L.A.?!'

* 'I got a degree in tearing things up. ' / 'Never a truer word.'

* That musical montage to end the episode... hnnnnnng.
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Fred :(
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Wesley finally gets his girl, and in the next episode she's dead (by about as literal a deus ex machina as can be). Because of course.

I suspect they probably would have given it a bit more time if the season wasn't in rush mode at this point, but I don't know this for sure. I do know Illyria was happening this season one way or another, though.

But yeah, it's probably more consistent with how life treats Wes this way, lol.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

The cast searches furiously for a cure in the first half, but as a viewer, we know Fred is doomed

I certainly didn't know that going in, especially early on in the episode. I mean they definitely turn up the drama compared to other times, but we've had plenty of dire situations that do get fixed. It's sort of par for the course.

SeabassDebeste posted...

* Disclaimer - I knew vaguely about Illyria taking over Fred's body going in.

See, I think this may be a factor here.
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I really like Illyria.
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I love Illyria. It's the forceful way she stares at people with her solid blue-eyes wide open. Whenever she's looking at someone it feels like she's observing a bug. It makes her feel... alien. Inhuman. It's perfect.

I'm not sure if it's Amy Acker's acting or the makeup / costume doing work here, or both. But it's great.


SeabassDebeste posted...

* The cough of blood from Fred is violently shot. It's beautiful.

It's the singing with Lornes snap around that really sells this for me. He's reacted pretty strongly to horrible things he's seen when someone sings before, but never like this.

you make me happy...
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My wife's a big Fred fan. It's the reason she doesn't like season 5 any better than 4. (I'm a big Fred fan too, but Amy Acker really sells Illyria so that helps me get over it better.)

kevwaffles posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Wesley finally gets his girl, and in the next episode she's dead (by about as literal a deus ex machina as can be). Because of course.

I suspect they probably would have given it a bit more time if the season wasn't in rush mode at this point, but I don't know this for sure. I do know Illyria was happening this season one way or another, though.

The show's cancellation was announced after the WW2 episode. I don't know exactly where they were in filming when it happened, but the main thrust of the season did indeed continue as planned (there were some changes, but the main stuff is still there).

The whole story of the cancellation bugs me still.
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"There's a hole in the world...feels like we ought to have known."
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Illyria is great.

But Fred :(
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kevwaffles posted...

I suspect they probably would have given it a bit more time if the season wasn't in rush mode at this point, but I don't know this for sure. I do know Illyria was happening this season one way or another, though.

But yeah, it's probably more consistent with how life treats Wes this way, lol.

Angelus goes psycho right after Buffy and he finally do the deed. Tara dies right after reconciling with Willow with twenty-four hours of sex. It's not a new pattern!

kevwaffles posted...

I certainly didn't know that going in, especially early on in the episode. I mean they definitely turn up the drama compared to other times, but we've had plenty of dire situations that do get fixed. It's sort of par for the course.

SeabassDebeste posted...
See, I think this may be a factor here.

Yup, that's possible. See the above reasoning for why I think that the writing is on the wall - but it's impossible for a viewing (especially a first viewing) not to be colored by foreknowledge. TVTropes will ruin your watching experiences. (Unmarked/terribly indicated spoilers are par for the course..)

ClyTheCool posted...

I love Illyria. It's the forceful way she stares at people with her solid blue-eyes wide open. Whenever she's looking at someone it feels like she's observing a bug. It makes her feel... alien. Inhuman. It's perfect.

I'm not sure if it's Amy Acker's acting or the makeup / costume doing work here, or both. But it's great.

I absolutely love what Amy Acker brings to the role, and yeah, makeup/costume are on point for sure.

ClyTheCool posted...

It's the singing with Lornes snap around that really sells this for me. He's reacted pretty strongly to horrible things he's seen when someone sings before, but never like this.

you make me happy...

so good

JonThePenguin posted...

The show's cancellation was announced after the WW2 episode. I don't know exactly where they were in filming when it happened, but the main thrust of the season did indeed continue as planned (there were some changes, but the main stuff is still there).

5x13 is from mid-February 2004 according to Wikipedia... I'd expect them to be working on near-finale episodes by that point. Maybe they had like an extra two weeks' notice before the announcement?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

JonThePenguin posted...

The show's cancellation was announced after the WW2 episode. I don't know exactly where they were in filming when it happened, but the main thrust of the season did indeed continue as planned (there were some changes, but the main stuff is still there).

5x13 is from mid-February 2004 according to Wikipedia... I'd expect them to be working on near-finale episodes by that point. Maybe they had like an extra two weeks' notice before the announcement?

Well, the whole process was abnormal with this one. The show was riding high - great ratings and great critical response - and Whedon decided to push for an early renewal - according to one of the producers...
David Fury

Joss specifically asked Jordan Levin, who was the head of The WB at the time, to give us an early pick-up because every year they [would] wait so long to give Angel a pick-up [and] a lot of us [would] turn down jobs hoping that Angel will continue - he didn't want that to happen. So, he was feeling very confidant and he just asked Jordan, "Like, make your decision now whether you're going to pick us up or not," and Jordan, sort of with his hands tied, with his back up against the wall, called hims the next day and said, ‘Okay, we're canceling you.’

So it was definitely decided earlier than normal, though I've heard they wanted to sit on the announcement longer than mid-Feb but a leak forced that hand too.
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WB not the brighest of the bunch
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Angelus goes psycho right after Buffy and he finally do the deed. Tara dies right after reconciling with Willow with twenty-four hours of sex. It's not a new pattern!

Having shit go wrong around this time, sure, but usually the damage tends to be a pretty sudden and instantaneous event. Actually having a whole episode with a character dying and trying to fix it, and then still failing? That's the part I find pretty abnormal.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

I will not be brought down by some monster flu. I am better than that!'

Guess not!

...Too soon?
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kevwaffles posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

Angelus goes psycho right after Buffy and he finally do the deed. Tara dies right after reconciling with Willow with twenty-four hours of sex. It's not a new pattern!

Having shit go wrong around this time, sure, but usually the damage tends to be a pretty sudden and instantaneous event. Actually having a whole episode with a character dying and trying to fix it, and then still failing? That's the part I find pretty abnormal.

or even trying to fix it post-death and then being told that:
no she's gone
her soul has burned, there is no reviving her
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I mean, that's not too dissimilar to Joyce and Tara.

Both Buffy and Willow respectively were told "She's gone forever, there's nothing you can do."
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kevwaffles posted...

Having shit go wrong around this time, sure, but usually the damage tends to be a pretty sudden and instantaneous event. Actually having a whole episode with a character dying and trying to fix it, and then still failing? That's the part I find pretty abnormal.

Hmm, I'd say the closest precedent that comes to mind is probably 4x10, the episode where Angelus is unleashed. We spend an episode practically told that this is a fantasy, but in the end he succumbs. Not a perfect match, obviously.

Turducken posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

I will not be brought down by some monster flu. I am better than that!'

Guess not!

...Too soon?

Fair game. Though characters being wrong is nothing new - still appreciate the fight!

htaeD posted...

her soul has burned, there is no reviving her

Terastodon posted...

I mean, that's not too dissimilar to Joyce and Tara.

Both Buffy and Willow respectively were told "She's gone forever, there's nothing you can do."

I mostly agree with Terastodon here. The difference IMO is the whole soul has burned thing. That is just straight-up dark - even never seeing Tara again, we know she's out there somewhere. Fred is eternally gone, which is a different kind of horror.
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