Board 8 > The comments on this Tomb Raider article make me smile.

(+) Yeah! (+)

From: yoshifan823 | #098

She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.

She was a pair of boobs holding guns

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From: KingButz | #096

If you are looking towards video games for quality writing you are looking at the wrong place imo

Why? It's my aspiration to eventually enter the business. Why can't I hope that the medium will become better, and that I can be a part of the process?

From: CoolCly | #097

From: KanzarisKelshen | #094

We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.

I really have to ask Kanz, did YOU watch the trailer? Because this game is like, exactly the kind of immersive storytelling that gaming should be moving towards. I really get a sense of wanting to root for Lara to make it through whatever the **** is going on in that island.

I did. We must be watching different trailers, because that was absolutely not what was shown. It was very polished, but not particularly immersive, you know.

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From: KingButz | #099

From: KanzarisKelshen | #094

We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.

Video games are ALL ABOUT the mechanics! Nobody will buy a video game for the story if they don't like the mechanics. Video games are not primarily a story-telling medium, and they never will be. That's why we call them "games!" Do you open up your game of monopoly or chess looking for an engrossing story?

There are reasons that movies, books, etc. still exist and are popular and always will be. They are primarily storytelling mediums and nobody goes to a movie looking for gameplay.

Planescape: Torment called. It wants its credit as a work of art back.

So did Persona 4, for that matter. It's telling you to stop being silly. I can continue rattling off examples if you'd like. You can absolutely play a game for their story, with the mechanics as a method of immersion.

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yoshifan823 posted...

Yes, "Lara may NOT have been the greatest female icon for women characters in gaming (Because that belongs to The Boss). But she was one of the first female badasses that can shoot bears and TRexes." is the exact same as "women really don't mind being glorified sex objects and trophies."

She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.

Nice cherry picking there. But let me pick, you know, the first thing she actually says about the character.

"So lets see...let's remove Lara from being fully badass to weak 'Whedon-flavored female hero' bull because you know...that's exactly what I want to see in Lara. Not a confident badass fully aware of her sexuality. Nope, can't have that, might scare the boys are TARGET DEMO."

Lara wasn't a "confident badass aware of her sexuality." She was a mostly personality-less sex object and exactly the thing they hate being glorified. But suddenly now she was a badass fully aware of her sexuality? What, because she shows weakness instead of "BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM I KILLED ALL OF YOU NO SWEAT LOLOL."

--
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From: KingButz | #101

From: yoshifan823 | #098

She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.

She was a pair of boobs holding guns

For the record, I think Yoshi's arguments have become silly too. But saying 'videogames are purely about mechanics, no one buys them for their story' is just blatantly false.

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KingButz posted...

From: yoshifan823 | #098

She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.

She was a pair of boobs holding guns

She was also one of the first female action heroes in video gaming. It was bad that she was essentially created for sexual exploitation, but you can look at the bright side, because at least it started a trend. Without Lara Croft, we probably wouldn't have Jade, or The Boss, or any of the other good female characters we have.

From: KingButz | #099

From: KanzarisKelshen | #094

We have to hold EVERY GAME to a higher standard. Videogames should evolve as a medium and have stories as good as books or the more thought-provoking movies if they're trying to tell a story instead of just prepping some dressing for the mechanics.

Video games are ALL ABOUT the mechanics! Nobody will buy a video game for the story if they don't like the mechanics. Video games are not primarily a story-telling medium, and they never will be. That's why we call them "games!" Do you open up your game of monopoly or chess looking for an engrossing story?

There are reasons that movies, books, etc. still exist and are popular and always will be. They are primarily storytelling mediums and nobody goes to a movie looking for gameplay.

I disagree with this post. I think a great story line is something near every game should strive for. Mechanics are definitely important, but I find games, especially if they are just single player, with weak or nonexistent story line / characters to be... mindless. A game should make me care about what's going on just like a book or movie should.


One thing I really like about this trailer is that it actually felt like a movie trailer. It didn't feel like a video game. Except I'm pretty sure that wasn't all cutscenes, there was actual game play footage laid in there and it didn't break it up. I think that's excellent.

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Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.

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The problem is, the argument that people buy games for the story is like what the JRPG/VN camp falls into and even they are complaining about gameplay and mechanics becoming stale over the years as a major downfall to the genre. The other case is like that bioware worker who wanted to have a thing to skip combat. In this case you dont want a game you want some sort of interactive choose your own adventure or something.

Story is important, but it's rarely the deciding factor if you'll get a game or not.

--
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We have seen action hero characters get tortured, beaten, and maimed. Being subjected to torture "completely removes one's agency and sense of empowerment" and yet is common fare for the action genre.

how often have those instances of torture been advertised so blatantly as this, though, as a crucial part of the development of the character? they're usually set up as another obstacle for that hero to overcome and boom it's back to fighting terrorists or sneaking through the enemy base or whatever.

i don't think rape and torture can be compared so easily. not to say that they're are not similar in some respects, but torture is most often about getting something, like information or cooperation. rape is mostly a power display through sexual violence.

i just don't think it's the kind of thing most video games can wield effectively as a narrative device.

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

From: ExThaNemesis | #108

Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

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*SVU SPOILERS*

Do you think that episode of SVU where <spoilers>Benson almost gets raped</spoilers> was bad? That was one of the best episodes. The way they describe the story for this game sounds great, honestly. I don't see how you can be "disgusted" by the thought of an almost-rape. You know people actually get raped in real life, right? Stop acting so sheltered.

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foolmo
at work

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

...But the attempted rape is in the trailer already. There's not really much left to prove, because unless the following cutscene is her crying for five hours... It's perfectly harmless.

Then again, you're calling the trailer "torture porn," so I really don't know if we're watching the same thing. >_>

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sorry about the gaps in my response times. i'm trying to make myself clear about what i'm trying to say.

i end up having to rewrite my posts a couple of times to get it right.

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

From: KanzarisKelshen | #111

From: ExThaNemesis | #108

Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

So wait

"bad writers shouldn't have the right to write about rape"?

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From: foolm0ron | #112

*SVU SPOILERS*

Do you think that episode of SVU where <spoilers>Benson almost gets raped</spoilers> was bad? That was one of the best episodes. The way they describe the story for this game sounds great, honestly. I don't see how you can be "disgusted" by the thought of an almost-rape. You know people actually get raped in real life, right? Stop acting so sheltered.

Haven't seen it so I couldn't tell you. What was its name? If you give me a while I could go watch it and give you my impressions of it, if it matters.

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From: DSAutoResponder | #110

i just don't think it's the kind of thing most video games can wield effectively as a narrative device.

Oh so you're dismissing the story of a game you haven't played because it's unlikely to be good?

--
foolmo
at work

From: foolm0ron | #117
From: DSAutoResponder | #110

i just don't think it's the kind of thing most video games can wield effectively as a narrative device.

Oh so you're dismissing the story of a game you haven't played because it's unlikely to be good?
im very wary of it. i'd be perfectly fine to take back my criticism if they prove me wrong and handle it well.

but i dont expect them to.

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

From: XIII_rocks | #115

From: KanzarisKelshen | #111

From: ExThaNemesis | #108

Also any of the games that I love, I love mostly for their story. The gameplay is definitely an immersion technique for me. I just don't feel that rape is a subject to be left untouched.

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

So wait

"bad writers shouldn't have the right to write about rape"?

They should have the right, especially because there's a chance they could improve. They do not deserve any sort of defending until they're proven to have written something good however, and should not be surprised if they're lambasted for terrible writing after the fact.

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I was being extreme to make a point. The Uncharted games rank among my favorite games ever partly because they tell a fun and exciting story. The story is enjoyable, but won't win any awards for being excellent writing. But I would never go into a video game looking for an award-winning story because that's an unrealistic expectation.

When you focus so much on the story, you get Heavy Rain. It might be great but the more you focus on the story, the less it becomes a game because you can't really have the quality of story you are looking for when the main character is constantly shooting people and solving puzzles and other things that video game convention calls for.

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foolm0ron posted...

*SVU SPOILERS*

Do you think that episode of SVU where Benson almost gets raped was bad? That was one of the best episodes. The way they describe the story for this game sounds great, honestly. I don't see how you can be "disgusted" by the thought of an almost-rape. You know people actually get raped in real life, right? Stop acting so sheltered.

Yeah, but the difference is that SVU is a TV show written by capable writers, and Tomb Raider is a video game written by video game writers. SVU's main function is to tell a good story in a mature fashion, aimed at a wide audience, and Tomb Raider's is to tell a story suited best for a game where you go around shooting dudes, and is aimed primarily at men ages 15-30.

One of these sounds a little more suited to dealing with a story about rape than the other.

Yoshi, why haven't you replied to my post yet.

Because the comment I posted, which is her first actual one about the character, pretty much outright says "I prefer her as boobs with guns."

Is it because you have no point and are just trying to be a feminist hack right now?

Probably.

--
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From: StealThisSheen | #113
KanzarisKelshen posted...

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

...But the attempted rape is in the trailer already. There's not really much left to prove, because unless the following cutscene is her crying for five hours... It's perfectly harmless.

Then again, you're calling the trailer "torture porn," so I really don't know if we're watching the same thing. >_>

just to be clear
you guys are talking about the trailer that opens with Lara hanging in bondage upside down
and then she swings around to catch herself on fire
and then she falls like 20 feet
and lands on a big spike
and has to pull it out of her side as she screams

right?

Because come on, that is an absolutely ridiculous scene.

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So it's just an issue of video game writers being worse than TV show drama writers. It's not really about rape or anything like that at all.

Glad we could get down to the meat of the issue.

--
foolmo
at work

From: KingButz | #120

I was being extreme to make a point. The Uncharted games rank among my favorite games ever partly because they tell a fun and exciting story. The story is enjoyable, but won't win any awards for being excellent writing. But I would never go into a video game looking for an award-winning story because that's an unrealistic expectation.

When you focus so much on the story, you get Heavy Rain. It might be great but the more you focus on the story, the less it becomes a game because you can't really have the quality of story you are looking for when the main character is constantly shooting people and solving puzzles and other things that video game convention calls for.

Or you get Xenogears (you can make arguments about Disk 2 - I'll accept the obvious callout because it was murdered by lack of budget and deadlines). It doesn't have the most stellar mechanics ever, but it doesn't need 'em. The story of it IS the main draw, and it's pretty damn good.

--
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From: foolm0ron | #124

So it's just an issue of video game writers being worse than TV show drama writers. It's not really about rape or anything like that at all.

Glad we could get down to the meat of the issue.

Not quite, Foolmo. It's sorta like that, but not exactly. Let's put it like this: you know how Charles Schulz said that a girl beating up a boy was funny but a boy beating up a girl wasn't, right? It takes a great writer to make a boy beating up a girl funny. It only takes a slightly less skilled writer to make it horrendously uncomfortable to watch. The guys behind Tomb Raider aren't great writers, so there's zero faith in them being able to make something potentially uncomfortable thrilling.

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From: StealThisSheen | #113

Then again, you're calling the trailer "torture porn," so I really don't know if we're watching the same thing. >_>

I think he has a point for the first minute or so until she gets to the campfire., but that's when you clearly see her start developing more and more into a capable adventurer. Obviously still not there yet, but growing.


And that's the whole point of the game. At first she's just a normal college student thrown into some ****ing weird stuff and after somehow luckily barely surviving the initial onslaught she starts adapting and kicking ass. That is what I get from this trailer and I think that's exactly how it will be in the game.

--
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From: KanzarisKelshen | #125

Or you get Xenogears (you can make arguments about Disk 2 - I'll accept the obvious callout because it was murdered by lack of budget and deadlines). It doesn't have the most stellar mechanics ever, but it doesn't need 'em. The story of it IS the main draw, and it's pretty damn good.

JRPGs are a separate beast entirely. I can't think of any other video game genre that so entirely removes the story-telling elements from the gameplay. They practically are two different things. You watch some story, and then play a game that is related to the story but is not the story at all, then repeat. There is a reason that LPs of JRPGs are so popular. Many people don't really need to even play the game to enjoy the story.

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From: KingButz | #128

From: KanzarisKelshen | #125

Or you get Xenogears (you can make arguments about Disk 2 - I'll accept the obvious callout because it was murdered by lack of budget and deadlines). It doesn't have the most stellar mechanics ever, but it doesn't need 'em. The story of it IS the main draw, and it's pretty damn good.

JRPGs are a separate beast entirely. I can't think of any other video game genre that so entirely removes the story-telling elements from the gameplay. They practically are two different things. You watch some story, and then play a game that is related to the story but is not the story at all, then repeat. There is a reason that LPs of JRPGs are so popular. Many people don't really need to even play the game to enjoy the story.

Counterpoint: Myth. Those games also mostly divorce story from gameplay and tell an excellent tale. They're Real-Time Tactical Games. jRPGs aren't special and we shouldn't excuse bad writing because of them. They're just games like any others. Any sort of game can tell an amazing story. It just requires a good writer who uses the medium properly.

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StealThisSheen posted...

yoshifan823 posted...

Yes, "Lara may NOT have been the greatest female icon for women characters in gaming (Because that belongs to The Boss). But she was one of the first female badasses that can shoot bears and TRexes." is the exact same as "women really don't mind being glorified sex objects and trophies."

She wasn't the best character, but at least she was a proactive, confident woman who could deal with her own ****.

Nice cherry picking there. But let me pick, you know, the first thing she actually says about the character.

"So lets see...let's remove Lara from being fully badass to weak 'Whedon-flavored female hero' bull because you know...that's exactly what I want to see in Lara. Not a confident badass fully aware of her sexuality. Nope, can't have that, might scare the boys are TARGET DEMO."

Lara wasn't a "confident badass aware of her sexuality." She was a mostly personality-less sex object and exactly the thing they hate being glorified. But suddenly now she was a badass fully aware of her sexuality? What, because she shows weakness instead of "BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM I KILLED ALL OF YOU NO SWEAT LOLOL."

Yeah, basically. At least when she was treated as a personality-less sex object (and personality-less isn't 100% true), she was being treated essentially the same as the male heroes like Nathan Drake and the like, not exactly the prime example of a strong female character, but at least a step in the right direction, compared to previous tries, but this is a step 100% in the wrong direction. It's not a complaint as in "We loved Lara Croft just as she was", but "THIS IS EVEN WORSE DEAR GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU".

it requires delicate handling, i think, to make rape in fiction "work." even talented writers can very easily fumble it. it's not a matter of me thinking the people working on this game are "hacks" or bad writers or whatever, it's a matter of taking a super touchy issue like rape and handling it properly. like i said, that's difficult for anybody.

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

It makes character sense for Lara to be more vulnerable and less tough and whatever, though.

Like, does this not just seem really obvious

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foolm0ron posted...

So it's just an issue of video game writers being worse than TV show drama writers. It's not really about rape or anything like that at all.

Glad we could get down to the meat of the issue.

No it is about rape. Video game writers are worse than TV show writers, and even in the case of the latter, there aren't too many who can handle a sensitive subject like rape, so why should I expect the former to be able to do it?

Oh this is where the feminism argument ran off to

Where are all my dinosaur buddies

--
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Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.

From: KanzarisKelshen | #111

Neither do I, ExTha, but I DO feel that rape is a subject that should be left untouched...by hacks. Crystal Dynamics is made up of hack writers until proven otherwise, because their track record isn't good there.

Oh so you're making a totally different argument from what I'm arguing against then.

--
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Brace for the G's, and fast heel-toe work.

From: DSAutoResponder | #131

it requires delicate handling, i think, to make rape in fiction "work." even talented writers can very easily fumble it. it's not a matter of me thinking the people working on this game are "hacks" or bad writers or whatever, it's a matter of taking a super touchy issue like rape and handling it properly. like i said, that's difficult for anybody.

This. It's the same way with trying to describe a personal murder (i. e. not your average fantasy battle but a one to one affair). You'd have to write very competently to wring the right emotions out of your audience because they're likely desensitized to violence. You'd have to write very competently to wring the right emotions out of your audience with rape too, because they are *not* desensitized to it.

--
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

just to be clear
you guys are talking about the trailer that opens with Lara hanging in bondage upside down
and then she swings around to catch herself on fire
and then she falls like 20 feet
and lands on a big spike
and has to pull it out of her side as she screams

right?

Because come on, that is an absolutely ridiculous scene.

But that's only one part.

And, honestly, pulling a spike out of your side is badass, for those complaining she's not.

I mean, Walking Dead. Darryl falls on his own arrow and has to rip it out of his side. Did people go "OH GOD TORTURE PORN THIS IS RIDICULOUS."

No. They went "Badass."

--
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From: KanzarisKelshen | #129

Counterpoint: Myth. Those games also mostly divorce story from gameplay and tell an excellent tale. They're Real-Time Tactical Games. jRPGs aren't special and we shouldn't excuse bad writing because of them. They're just games like any others. Any sort of game can tell an amazing story. It just requires a good writer who uses the medium properly.

Exactly. So we've established here that the stories that people enjoy and are great quality usually have to be mostly divorced from the gameplay. There may be plenty of JRPGs with good writing, because it's much more doable to write a story that does not have to shoehorn in the implications from the gameplay.

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XIII_rocks posted...

It makes character sense for Lara to be more vulnerable and less tough and whatever, though.

Like, does this not just seem really obvious

It might, if this was a movie we were talking about. But in a video game, when you put the character in the hands of a player, they turn into a highly capable killing machine almost immediately. That will, odds are, in the moment right after that attempted rape, when Lara shoots a guy for the first time. And from then on, she turns into Female Nathan Drake, cracking wise and blowing guys up.

I will say this; I have absolutely never cared for Lara Croft in any way at any time before. What a boring and pointless character. Even with the movies.


I think I may actually become a fan of her when this game comes out. It really has the potential to make you care and root for her.


Sooo not sure how this can be a step in the wrong direction.



Kanz, I wonder if your initial impression of the trailer clouded your judgement of the whole thing. When the trailer started and she was hanging upside down and she was crawling around in the cave I definitely thought "yeah, Kanz is right, torture porn." But the development over the course of the trailer definitely won me over. That's really the only way I can explain your view of the trailer as a whole; made your judgement at the start and just held onto it the whole way which would be really quite foolish.

--
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

From: XIII_rocks | #132

It makes character sense for Lara to be more vulnerable and less tough and whatever, though.

Like, does this not just seem really obvious

Right, but why do you need rape to show that? Doesn't it make sense to have her get her ass kicked by a martial artist, or make a callback to a Tomb Raider 1/Legend/Anniversary jump and have her fumble it because she is not, actually, the incredible acrobat she'll be down the line? This even works to show her hardening, too - she can meet the same martial artist or come across the same jump down the line and do better. This is much more subtle and better than 'OMG SHE'S ABOUT TO GET RAPED BUT SHE GOT AWAY NOW SHE'S A STRONG, CONFIDENT, BOLD SURVIVOR.'. One of them isn't shoved in your face. The author isn't telling you 'do you see? Do you SEE?! She's tough! SUPER TOUGH!'. He's showing. In the other one, he's...not.

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yoshifan823 posted...

It might, if this was a movie we were talking about. But in a video game, when you put the character in the hands of a player, they turn into a highly capable killing machine almost immediately. That will, odds are, in the moment right after that attempted rape, when Lara shoots a guy for the first time. And from then on, she turns into Female Nathan Drake, cracking wise and blowing guys up.

So, let me get this straight.

After saying video games should strive to be better

You're now saying that video games should never give characters personality that may make them vulnerable because they become "highly capable killing machines" in the hands of the player.

You just got done saying video games should have higher expectations

And then say "No, she shouldn't be vulnerable because this isn't a movie."


'Sup, Kanz. You seem to be the only one being logical right now of the two.

--
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Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://i33.tinypic.com/2v1sq51.jpg

From: KingButz | #138

From: KanzarisKelshen | #129

Counterpoint: Myth. Those games also mostly divorce story from gameplay and tell an excellent tale. They're Real-Time Tactical Games. jRPGs aren't special and we shouldn't excuse bad writing because of them. They're just games like any others. Any sort of game can tell an amazing story. It just requires a good writer who uses the medium properly.

Exactly. So we've established here that the stories that people enjoy and are great quality usually have to be mostly divorced from the gameplay. There may be plenty of JRPGs with good writing, because it's much more doable to write a story that does not have to shoehorn in the implications from the gameplay.

Not always, though. Take a look at Planescape. One of the mechanics is that you never truly die - if you die you are reborn later. You actually use this to bypass a trap early on, and then to disarm a special gadget. This is enthralling, you see. I don't see why gaming can't have more of that. Hell, if memory doesn't fail me, some FPS' have done things like these and had pretty alright stories. Not ones that will win the Literature Nobel, but good enough to stand up to any scrutiny.

From: CoolCly | #140

I will say this; I have absolutely never cared for Lara Croft in any way at any time before. What a boring and pointless character. Even with the movies.


I think I may actually become a fan of her when this game comes out. It really has the potential to make you care and root for her.


Sooo not sure how this can be a step in the wrong direction.



Kanz, I wonder if your initial impression of the trailer clouded your judgement of the whole thing. When the trailer started and she was hanging upside down and she was crawling around in the cave I definitely thought "yeah, Kanz is right, torture porn." But the development over the course of the trailer definitely won me over. That's really the only way I can explain your view of the trailer as a whole; made your judgement at the start and just held onto it the whole way which would be really quite foolish.

Could be. Lemme go watch it again and I'll give you my thoughts. Maybe I'm overreacting, I could be wrong.

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From: yoshifan823 | #139

t might, if this was a movie we were talking about. But in a video game, when you put the character in the hands of a player, they turn into a highly capable killing machine almost immediately. That will, odds are, in the moment right after that attempted rape, when Lara shoots a guy for the first time. And from then on, she turns into Female Nathan Drake, cracking wise and blowing guys up.

How can you even know this? Have you played the finished game already? Just because the game is portrayed in a specific way by marketing doesn't mean that is how the game actually is. For a lot of games, the marketing isn't even representative of the finished product!

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StealThisSheen posted...

yoshifan823 posted...

It might, if this was a movie we were talking about. But in a video game, when you put the character in the hands of a player, they turn into a highly capable killing machine almost immediately. That will, odds are, in the moment right after that attempted rape, when Lara shoots a guy for the first time. And from then on, she turns into Female Nathan Drake, cracking wise and blowing guys up.

So, let me get this straight.

After saying video games should strive to be better

You're now saying that video games should never give characters personality that may make them vulnerable because they become "highly capable killing machines" in the hands of the player.

You just got done saying video games should have higher expectations

And then say "No, she shouldn't be vulnerable because this isn't a movie."


'Sup, Kanz. You seem to be the only one being logical right now of the two.

They should strive to be better by making the gameplay compatible with the story that they're trying to tell. This particular game is not gonna do that, like pretty much all other games that are coming out/have come out, and no one seems particularly willing or wanting to change that. Games right now at least sometimes have characters that match the gameplay, or don't have character at all, so they don't have that dissonance.

KingButz posted...

From: yoshifan823 | #139

t might, if this was a movie we were talking about. But in a video game, when you put the character in the hands of a player, they turn into a highly capable killing machine almost immediately. That will, odds are, in the moment right after that attempted rape, when Lara shoots a guy for the first time. And from then on, she turns into Female Nathan Drake, cracking wise and blowing guys up.

How can you even know this? Have you played the finished game already? Just because the game is portrayed in a specific way by marketing doesn't mean that is how the game actually is. For a lot of games, the marketing isn't even representative of the finished product!

And like I said, I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure I won't be.

yoshifan823 posted...

They should strive to be better by making the gameplay compatible with the story that they're trying to tell. This particular game is not gonna do that, like pretty much all other games that are coming out/have come out, and no one seems particularly willing or wanting to change that. Games right now at least sometimes have characters that match the gameplay, or don't have character at all, so they don't have that dissonance.

So you're saying a character either has to be a personality-less badass to match gameplay

Or have the gameplay be boring as f*** to match any character building.

Now I see why Kanz made clear not to be lumped in with your argument.

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From: StealThisSheen | #137
HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

just to be clear
you guys are talking about the trailer that opens with Lara hanging in bondage upside down
and then she swings around to catch herself on fire
and then she falls like 20 feet
and lands on a big spike
and has to pull it out of her side as she screams

right?

Because come on, that is an absolutely ridiculous scene.

But that's only one part.

And, honestly, pulling a spike out of your side is badass, for those complaining she's not.

I mean, Walking Dead. Darryl falls on his own arrow and has to rip it out of his side. Did people go "OH GOD TORTURE PORN THIS IS RIDICULOUS."

No. They went "Badass."

The difference is that the trailers (there's more than one) show stuff like that happening constantly, it's not just one scene. And then we have comments by the developers here where the purpose is that they want the player to want to protect Lara and cuddle her or whatever.

I'm not knocking the devs or the overall narrative, but it's very easy to see how that sort of stuff can make people uncomfortable and upset them. Hell, watching all that stuff makes me feel uncomfortable. Call it "grit" or "realism" but I just think what they've shown seems excessive.

Plus do we really need another anti-feminist circlejerk thread on the internet? I mean really now.

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From: KanzarisKelshen | #143

Not always, though. Take a look at Planescape. One of the mechanics is that you never truly die - if you die you are reborn later. You actually use this to bypass a trap early on, and then to disarm a special gadget. This is enthralling, you see. I don't see why gaming can't have more of that. Hell, if memory doesn't fail me, some FPS' have done things like these and had pretty alright stories. Not ones that will win the Literature Nobel, but good enough to stand up to any scrutiny.

Does that mean they should stop trying? One of the things I like about the Tomb Raider game is that it looks like it is going to try out some very mature themes. Could they mishandle it? Sure! It's likely the story won't be that great, but I'm not really going to hold it against them, because at least they are trying!

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There are different versions of the trailer?


Well, I'll be clear. The one I watched is from this page.


http://www.gamezone.com/products/tomb-raider/previews/e3-2012-tomb-raider-preview

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