Board 8 > I have a genuine question about evolution (not trolling)

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I was thinking the other day, if evolution suggests that everything began with one cell, wouldn't that cell have to be perfect? From what I understand, I can't learn a trait and expect it to change my DNA, or dye my hair color enough and expect it to be replicated in my children. Wouldn't that first cell must have had all possible DNA we could ever need? ANd even the DNA that we didn't need that was weeded out with natural selection? And the cell must have been able to reproduce asexually.

I'm not trying to troll, I'm just genuinely curious.

I think it's like random mutations or something. S***y ones lead to dying off and good ones lead to thriving.

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Way to keep this serious.

1. Evolution does not suggest that everything began with one cell. This is a hugely common mistake. Evolution says nothing whatsoever about how life got started. It is a method of explaining how life changed after that.

2. DNA mutates sometimes. Mutations can produce varied results from the fairly standard to the completely unexpected. These mutations are why your idea of a "perfect" cell is flawed.

Maybe your answer is here OP : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor

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From: Hadoken92 | #011
Way to keep this serious.
I look at "KHAQ" postings as diversions, not destructive forces. I'm still reading this topic quite enthusiastically. There's just something of a page break now.

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Expected trap topic, completely disappointed.

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Did this topic just get palindroKHAQ'd?

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Can you explain how you think evolution works first?

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Eoin posted...

1. Evolution does not suggest that everything began with one cell. This is a hugely common mistake. Evolution says nothing whatsoever about how life got started. It is a method of explaining how life changed after that.

2. DNA mutates sometimes. Mutations can produce varied results from the fairly standard to the completely unexpected. These mutations are why your idea of a "perfect" cell is flawed.

I took Bio 1 quite some time ago and I felt like the origin of life was explained in the same section as natural selection, but I can be mistaken.
So in theory, I can mutate my DNA so that certain aspects of what I'd like to come out in my offspring comes out?
And I guess the first cell must have been able to go through mitosis or something in a very delicate environment and developed the ability to reproduce both asexually and sexually.

foolm0ron posted...

Did this topic just get palindroKHAQ'd?

wow, didn't even notice the second group of letters was khaq backwards initially.

Impressive work, people :)

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I never said anything about banging her. Also, I wouldn't bang her. -LusterSoldier (on a fat pageant mom whose daughter chugs Mt. Dew)

the symmetrical khaq is our god now, there's no such thing as theory of evolution!

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it's sad that the KHAQ private board is just filled with random board wanderers and andy

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Wow!

I've only heard legends of the KHAQQAHK.

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It will be told for aeons to come. Perhaps tonight we have solved the riddle of saving Board 8.

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Anyways, TC's misunderstanding is with how DNA works, and what kind of information it holds. DNA is just a sequence of nucleotides. It's like a sequence of 1s and 0s in a computer's binary code, but instead of being binary (just the two symbols 0 and 1), it has 4 symbols. Same principle, though, you can encode an infinite amount of information with those 4 symbols.

Any organism that has those 4 nucleotides technically has "all the possible DNA". So the first cell had those 4 nucleotides in SOME sequence. Some crappy, simple sequence. Then when it split to reproduce, the new children got the same sequence. But then some of the children had a couple of different nucleotides in their sequence, due to mutation. It's like taking a computer program and just switching a few 0s to 1s. Repeat over millions of years and you have evolution.

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From: ImTheMacheteGuy | #020

wow, didn't even notice the second group of letters was khaq backwards initially.

Impressive work, people :)

And linked by a same time same content post, no less

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Let's not forget the complexities of different organisms using the resulting amino acids in similarly infinite different ways.

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Evolution first requires a means of reproduction and a means of recording information. Once a cell existed that could replicate itself and have a genetic code, evolution can begin. That one cell split into two. Then Four. Then eventually billions. These reproductions were of course not flawless. Slight variations lead to differences between the copies. Some of the copies were hopelessly corrupt, and died shortly. But some... Some were superior to those that came before them. Perhaps one could process energy quicker. Perhaps another could detect and avoid danger. These branches diverged, each growing entirely separate from the others. Some gained the ability to reproduce sexually, others did not. The longer this went on, the more branches there were. As the slight improvements piled up, fantastic things resulted from it. From being able to detect photons, to detecting the amount of light, to detecting the distance to a light source, to the wondrous thing that is the eye... Each step was minuscule. But given enough time, everything around you has resulted. And by no means is that process finished. Evolution continues now, and will so long as life remains. We can already control parts of the genetic code, leading to plants that grow where they could not, animals that resist disease... Given enough time, we'll gain a mastery over it. Selecting for helpful traits. Selecting against harmful ones. That's not science fiction. It's happening today.

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From: pjbasis | #027

Let's not forget the complexities of different organisms using the resulting amino acids in similarly infinite different ways.

Is that not encoded in the DNA as well, though?

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But to be more specific, it's the same as how any number of programs can result in combinations of ones and zeroes. Our language has only 26 characters, and yet it's capable of communicating almost anything. DNA isn't some library of every possible trait, it's a set of building blocks.

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foolm0ron posted...

From: ImTheMacheteGuy | #020

wow, didn't even notice the second group of letters was khaq backwards initially.

Impressive work, people :)

And linked by a same time same content post, no less

holy f*** nice O_O

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I never said anything about banging her. Also, I wouldn't bang her. -LusterSoldier (on a fat pageant mom whose daughter chugs Mt. Dew)

Mkay, I think that answered my question. Thanks guys.

From: foolm0ron | #029

Is that not encoded in the DNA as well, though?

I guess at the end of the day it is.

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I have no idea what you mean by "all the possible DNA you'd ever need." That's not something that makes sense to me. <_< There was never a cell that had every possible type of every gene ever, if that's what you're asking. That's just impossible.

But if you're starting with a cell, obviously it has to have the basic instructions in place to keep it alive. How to take up food, get rid of waste, and most importantly, divide and copy its DNA for the next generation. Over time, mutations are going to happen, though, and that's how things change. The ones that change the DNA and the protein it makes without killing the organism are the ones that survive. Plus you can get more experimentation with stuff like chromosome duplication events. For example, you've got a cell that has one chromosome that contains all the stuff it needs to survive. Imagine if that entire thing were to duplicate. Now the cell has two working copies of every gene. That gives mutation a LOT of room to work, since as long as between the two chromosomes, there is a full set of working copies of the "base" genome, there's another copy that can mutate and make an entirely different product with a different function. So with that example, maybe it's easier for you to see how life became more complex.

Also a common misconception: Evolution =/= "improvement." Evolution is heritable change.

edit: oh ok

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Hadoken92 posted...

I was thinking the other day, if evolution suggests that everything began with one cell, wouldn't that cell have to be perfect?

Hadoken92 posted...

I took Bio 1 quite some time ago and I felt like the origin of life was explained in the same section as natural selection, but I can be mistaken.

How your school thought you about evolution may have only shared a passing resemblance to reality. This is not a slight on your school, by the way - at just about any kind of non-specialist study level, most of what gets taught only shares a passing resemblance to reality.

Hadoken92 posted...

So in theory, I can mutate my DNA so that certain aspects of what I'd like to come out in my offspring comes out?

Well....you'd need to specifically ensure that the mutation happened in your germline cells (the cells which produce your sperm or eggs). A mutation elsewhere will not be heritable.

Also, most mutations would not be not "single-shot" - changing one thing doesn't necessarily only change that single thing and nothing else. By definition, most of your DNA is fine as it is (since you're alive). Any mutations are therefore more likely to be bad than good.

Hadoken92 posted...

And I guess the first cell must have been able to go through mitosis or something in a very delicate environment and developed the ability to reproduce both asexually and sexually.

Why first cell? Why not the billionth, or trillionth, or billionth trillionth trillionth?

Oh, and earlier cells almost certainly used RNA to perform the functions currently performed by DNA.

I was thinking the other day, if evolution suggests that everything began with one cell, wouldn't that cell have to be perfect?

A perfect cell, you say?



(I couldn't resist!)

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also, sexual reproduction only started millions of years after "the first cell"

let's not also forget that most mutations in cells in complex organisms are either corrected for or result in cell death.

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but yeah, for the most part evolution can be stated very simply:

any traits that make an organism more likely to produce viable offspring get passed down easily to subsequent generations, leading to those traits becoming more common. occasionally, mutation introduces slightly modified traits. if those cause the organism to produce more offspring, they may pass those mutant traits on. since some traits get passed down preferencially, the population changes slowly over time.

it gets a little more complicated than that, but that is basically it.

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