Board 8 > Anyone else in the mood for a Best Console Ever debate?

(+) Yeah! (+)

1) PS2
2) DS

rest is a mess. but whether it's rpgs, action games, platformers, flight, survival horror, or just about every genre, ps2 destroys hard. rpgs being the category more than any other with ease.

ds just has a bit of everything and great at everything, in a surprising number of genres at that.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

(I'm assuming portables don't count as "consoles" for this discussion, or the DS is very much in consideration)

PlayStation 2, not especially close, and I'm not considering backwards compatibility. It utterly dominated last generation in a way no console has since the NES. And I think most would agree that the breadth of game quality was much lower in the 8-bit era than it was in the PS2 era (and indeed, that total quality has generally risen with each gen).


re RPGs:

Arguing Super Famicom RPGs (let alone SNES, which loses you FF5) over PS2 RPGs really confuses me and feels like a mark of nostalgia. Even if you argue it has the best individual titles (Chrono Trigger and FF6 are pretty excellent), the SNES falls off fairly quickly from there. The ~10th best SNES RPG is the type of thing that would get re-released for virtual console and GBA in the past decade and nobody but the game's nostalgic fans would care. (SNES BoFs, for instance, probably fall around here)

Meanwhile PS2 has four Suikodens, three Wild Arms, two(?) Kingdom Hearts, the most popular games in the Shin Megami Tensei series, the entire Shadow Hearts trilogy, the entire Xenosaga trilogy, and entries from Tales, Disgaea, Star Ocean, Grandia, Valkyrie Profile, the Aterlier/Mana Khemia games... the list goes on.

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(I'm assuming portables don't count as "consoles" for this discussion, or the DS is very much in consideration)

I don't see why not! I'd love to hear an in-depth DS defense, honestly. I don't think ports should count unless they substantially update the game, although others may disagree.

Arguing Super Famicom RPGs (let alone SNES, which loses you FF5) over PS2 RPGs really confuses me and feels like a mark of nostalgia.

You really have to include the SFAM for the system to have a chance, but then I don't see why we should be region-specific.

Even if you argue it has the best individual titles (Chrono Trigger and FF6 are pretty excellent), the SNES falls off fairly quickly from there. The ~10th best SNES RPG is the type of thing that would get re-released for virtual console and GBA in the past decade and nobody but the game's nostalgic fans would care. (SNES BoFs, for instance, probably fall around here)

If you provide the top ten PS2 RPGs, I'll give you my account of the ten best for the SNES/SFAM. We can see which wins out more clearly that way.

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I want to say the DS. Not just for the quality of its library, but also the diversity of experiences. You get far better variety with the DS library than you do with the PS2 (not that the PS2 was lacking in that regard, but comparatively...).

Beyond that I have no preference.

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Something something something
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there's only a handful of good RPGs for the SNES

it only becomes even an argument once you add in Japan-only games

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Yeah, the PS2 wins on RPGs, but doesn't quite win with platformers. What it does have beats any other console, but the SNES excelled there. When it comes to any other notable genre, though, the PS2 wins by a rather wide margin. The top tier on the PS2 is just so much deeper than any other system.

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ps2 i'd say has more variety than the ds but they're just completely different fields. while the DS gets you adventure games, the ps2 gets you action. ps2 is 3d platformers, ds is 2d platformers. ps2 kills it in shooters and survival horror, however ds kills it in puzzle and quirky games. all around, different experiences are done on both. ps2 also murders it in rpgs but it does that to everything. still doesn't detract the ds from having some really great ones.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

I don't think the PS2 wins RPGs. Especially from my perspective, if we take region locking into account. A lot of great PS2 RPGs didn't make it to Europe, in fact it took until 2007 for the PS2 to overtake the Gamecube in RPG terms. But either way I think the DS offers a better RPG selection. The remakes and ports help.

Speaking of the DS, I think the 3DS wins for sheer good games/time available ratio. Best first year ever, I don't think anyone will dispute.

The DS name is clearly a godsend.

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I mentioned before that tabling the PS2 may be a good idea, and I stick to that. Conversation seems to be gravitating around it!

And I'd love to see a DS list, particularly in regards to the genres the SNES excels at. It's got some of the best, no question (TWEWY, Castlevania trilogy).

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Kobe XX
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Since when did the Gamecube have RPGs? There's like three that are any good.

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...dunno how things are in europe, but stateside we got 3 shadow hearts, 2 wild arms, 7 smt (technically 8, but i'm aware atlus is not europe's friend) with 2/7 being different sub-genres than the others and 4 different series in that selection, 3 growlansers, 1 sakura wars, 2 tales of, 1 star ocean, a crapton of .hacks, a crapton of gust games across 3 series, 3 suikodens, and i'm probably not even halfway through the list of notable rpgs on the system (e.g., dark cloud 2, bunches of NIS games). now not everything there is good, but a lot is.

that said i dunno what europe got out of that batch up there. went with the lesser known series because it's more likely those got snubbed as opposed to major square game.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

gamecube's rpgs are uh.... baten kaitos 1, 2, skies of arcadia legends, fire emblem, and.....
...uhh.....
paper mario?

find it hard to believe that all that overtook what the ps2 had by 2005.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

I was thinking Fire Emblem PoR, Paper Mario TTYD, and Tales of Symphonia.

Wasn't counting Skies of Arcadia since that was a port.

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oh. duh, not sure how i forgot symphonia.
and an updated port from a dreamcast game that makes the game playable totally counts.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

Articuno2001 posted...
Since when did the Gamecube have RPGs? There's like three that are any good.

Exactly.

Seriously the PS2 RPG situation was really really bad here until after the PS2's time. We got Square games and that's about it. Besides, the Gamecube had more than that, like Lost Kingdoms. But my main point was that all it needed was that small handful of good RPGs to beat the PS2's nigh non-existant library. Things were different in other regions, but I am talking from my perspective.

Things did improve eventually though.

Anyway, on the subject of lists:

I hate to invoke 4chan in anything, but these two might help:

http://vsrecommendedgames.wikia.com/wiki/Playstation_2
http://vsrecommendedgames.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo_DS

Now not all of those games are good, but recommended. That's what the metacritic text colour is for. Definitely worth checking out that entire wiki if you want to compare libraries and get game recommendations.

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Something something something
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I mentioned before that tabling the PS2 may be a good idea, and I stick to that. Conversation seems to be gravitating around it!

Well it is a best console discussion, and PS2 is undeniably up there somewhere. No stranger than it gravitating to the SNES or DS. DS is probably one of the more controversial ones as some seem to have a pretty strong aversion to handhelds. Incidentally, speaking of action and platformers, the NES seems like it has a pretty strong library there too. It's easy to disregard that gen as archaic, but the NES has a serious library of games that still hold up today.

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Now not all of those games are good, but recommended. That's what the metacritic text colour is for. Definitely worth checking out that entire wiki if you want to compare libraries and get game recommendations.

Neat, and I'll definitely be using that site in the future, but throwing huge lists at one another won't help clear things up. I say we pick genres and compare them side-by-side. I've already asked for a PS2 RPG list, and we can do one for the DS/SNES too! Genre of your choice.

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Well, I don't know how bad it was in Europe, but the PS2's RPG library was amazing in the US.

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Well, I wouldn't say RPGs are the PS2's strongest genre, but I'll take what it has over the DS for sure. Action / adventure games are where the PS2 really excelled.

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From: Westbrick | #067
Now not all of those games are good, but recommended. That's what the metacritic text colour is for. Definitely worth checking out that entire wiki if you want to compare libraries and get game recommendations.

Neat, and I'll definitely be using that site in the future, but throwing huge lists at one another won't help clear things up. I say we pick genres and compare them side-by-side. I've already asked for a PS2 RPG list, and we can do one for the DS/SNES too! Genre of your choice.

A top 10 DS RPG list?

Dragon Quest IX: Sentinels of the Starry Skies
Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift
Mario and Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story
Pokemon Black / White
Pokemon Diamond / Pearl / Platinum
Radiant Historia
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2
Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
The World Ends With You

Without ports/remakes, this is probably the best ten available.

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Dragon Quest IX: Sentinels of the Starry Skies
Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift
Mario and Luigi 3: Bowser's Inside Story
Pokemon Black / White
Pokemon Diamond / Pearl / Platinum
Radiant Historia
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2
Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
The World Ends With You

Without ports/remakes, this is probably the best ten available.

Thanks. Lining up the games as best I can (like with like, roughly), here's what we end up with:

Dragon Quest V
Final Fantasy VI
Super Mario RPG
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest VI
Earthbound
Lufia II
Final Fantasy IV
Final Fantasy V

Yeah, SNES wins hands down here. Wouldn't you say?
TWEWY is an action RPG, so I'm not including it.

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Kobe XX
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You somehow forgot etrian odyssey. 2 is one of the top 10 on it and 3 is the best one. Castlevania games on it are also rpgs.

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The King Wang.
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From: Westbrick | #071
Dragon Quest V
Final Fantasy VI
Super Mario RPG
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest VI
Earthbound
Lufia II
Final Fantasy IV
Final Fantasy V

That's kinda funny since five of those are remade or ported for the DS.
Not counting action RPGs is dumb, though. I wouldn't go as far as adding Zelda games, but there are great action RPGs for the SNES as well, like Secret of Mana, that should be counted.

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From: Kinglicious | #072
You somehow forgot etrian odyssey. 2 is one of the top 10 on it and 3 is the best one. Castlevania games on it are also rpgs.

*smacks head*
knock off pokemon dpp then and add Etrian Odyssey on there.
I've never played a Castlevania game, though, so I can't really comment on those.

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Not counting action RPGs is dumb, though. I wouldn't go as far as adding Zelda games, but there are great action RPGs for the SNES as well, like Secret of Mana, that should be counted.

I'm "not including it" only because it's a subgenre worth discussing individually. Wouldn't you say?

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Kobe XX
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That list is even funnier because 3 of those didn't make it outside of japan, with 2 of them being for the first time available in English on the ds.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

Oh hi I am back, sorry I was doing User of the Year victory rounds.

Anyway SNES is completely destroyed on shooters and stuff so even straight RPG versus RPG SNES loses to the PS2.

Shadow Hearts series
Dark Cloud 2
Persona 3 and 4
Tales of the Abyss
Final Fantasy X
Disgaea
Dragon Quest VIII
Suikoden V
SMT: Nocturne

There are a lot of others that is just the warm up.

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The Cult of Personality.

we're tabling PS2 for two reasons:

1) i don't know enough about it clearly
2) the overwhelming consensus here is in its favor, doesn't make for great discussion!

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Kobe XX
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Fair enough.

Well I think SNES is second so I'll be on my way.

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Sir Chris
The Cult of Personality.

also splitting action rpg really doesn't make sense, no. if you're talking about rpgs then all are fair game, regardless of what subgenre it fits under. just so happens that the snes didn't have a lot of those while the ds does. >_>;

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

also splitting action rpg really doesn't make sense, no. if you're talking about rpgs then all are fair game, regardless of what subgenre it fits under. just so happens that the snes didn't have a lot of those while the ds does. >_>;

Um?

Sword of Mana
Seiken Densetsu III
Secret of Evermore
Soul Blazer
Illusion of Gaia
Terranigma
Star Ocean
Tales of Phantasia
EVO
Popful Mail

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Kobe XX
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Westbrick had some killer opinions the other day, but I feel like he's way too calculating in his attempt to woo the board.

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I'd take the 360 or the PS3 over pretty much any other platform, I think.

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Westbrick had some killer opinions the other day,

I think it's more than *you* happened to agree with my killer opinions! Doubt too many others would hop on board with, say, Cross > Trigger.

but I feel like he's way too calculating in his attempt to woo the board.

Nah, I'm too much of a late bloomer to end up as more than an afterthought. Just trying to have a fun topic.

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Kobe XX
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yeah see, of that list you've got 2 problems:

1) some of them arguably aren't action/rpgs and just rpgs with real-time battles and that's a distinction (SO, TOP).

2) half of those didn't come stateside. this is being done a lot so i'll clarify in where the problem lies: the snes has had a good 15 years to have its games be translated. nobody would know of the quality that live-a-live, bahamut lagoon, SD3, or TOP offer to the system were it not for this. just picked a couple games that i like there. Terranigma's the only one that's a bit odd just because it came out in Japan and Europe, but not NA (which i guess puts it about as legit as Hotel Dusk's sequel within the DS library). still, it's a system that has had the time for not just emulation, but for fans to actively translate a game. Love Plus just got translated relatively recently. for the GBA, there was Mother 3 well after its lifespan. worse yet, it makes for a rather inaccurate comparison because what gets translated is just a handful of stuff - the SRW series has well over a dozen games yet you can count all that are in english in any way on one hand. adventure games, visual novels, puzzle games, shmups, or just plain weird stuff rarely gets known over here. when you're using games that didn't come out in in the region you know while not knowing much about that region's actual library, you're making a bad comparison. it'd be impossible to ask anyone to know the full library that the DS, PSP, or PS2 have in Japan. it's an absurd amount of content, much of which never got localized. it's fair however to ask them for something that came out of it and in english.

...also, sword of mana is a gba or ds game. >_>; you're thinking secret.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

I'm fair about this: if we're going to be region-inclusive for one console, we should be region-inclusive for another. Evaluating the full quality of system requires analyzing its full library, JPN / NA or otherwise.

...also, sword of mana is a gba or ds game. >_>; you're thinking secret.

<_<

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Kobe XX
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that'd require knowing the full system. which let's face it, we don't for the japan heavy ones.
hell if metal wolf chaos wasn't so over the top AMERICAN we wouldn't know of that either for the Xbox.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

From: Westbrick | #086
I'm fair about this: if we're going to be region-inclusive for one console, we should be region-inclusive for another. Evaluating the full quality of system requires analyzing its full library, JPN / NA or otherwise.

That's not necessarily fair. To play most consoles games in another region you'd have to buy the console again or mod it. This should be a point in favor of the DS since it is one of the only consoles that isn't region locked.

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This point is only really relevant for modern systems, of which only PS2 is really relevant, it seems to me; that's the one console we've tabled!

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Kobe XX
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That's not necessarily fair. To play most consoles games in another region you'd have to buy the console again or mod it. This should be a point in favor of the DS since it is one of the only consoles that isn't region locked.

Noted. How much credit it deserves is up for debate. It saves you $30 on a converter, true, but I don't know if that'll make a major impact.

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From: Westbrick | #090
Noted. How much credit it deserves is up for debate. It saves you $30 on a converter, true, but I don't know if that'll make a major impact.

Well modding to play cross-region is technically illegal so it actually saves you the price of buying another console.

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Well modding to play cross-region is technically illegal

Wow, really? I'd find this hard to believe. The region locks for the SNES/N64, for example, amount to a bit of extra plastic on the cartridges.

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From: Westbrick | #092
Well modding to play cross-region is technically illegal

Wow, really? I'd find this hard to believe. The region locks for the SNES/N64, for example, amount to a bit of extra plastic on the cartridges.

Well it's complicated because when you mod a current gen console to play cross-region games you are also making it so it can play pirated games. It's not distinguishable at all.

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SNES.
By far.

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Ni!

yeah, modding's illegal. but really, the bigger is less 'see you can now play them!" as much as it's 'so what the hell is out there.'

now mind you, i'd take the ps2 and ds all the way even with what's out there, however i'm also aware that it's a comparision stacked against them. ps2 games and up are hard to translate and program for.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

From the consoles I own or used to own

Hardware Issues aside. I'll rate the Genre based on their library

PS2 >>> PS1 > SNES >>> XBOX360 > PS3 > NES > N64 > Genesis >>> Gamecube > Wii > Dreamcast > DS > GBA > Saturn > PSP > GB > GBC > Master System > Atari

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I've always been under the impression that modding isn't illegal, just against your TOU

pirating games is of course illegal

even if they're 20 years old and will never come out again

"lol"

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long ranking list of the consoles I've owned and played enough of to rank

Genesis
SNES
PS2
N64
NES
Gamecube
Wii
360
PSX

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SNES by far

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PS2
PS3
PS1
SNES
NES
Wii
Genesis
GameCube
N64

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