Board 8 > Mass Effect fans seem hellbent on dethroning Sonic fans for worst ever

(+) Yeah! (+)

what's done is done, I imagine, you're not getting that back.

this happens with every franchise. MGS, Xenosaga, LOST, Mass Effect -- I cannot wait to see how they handle Assassin's Creed. that is going to be a nightmare.

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xyzzy

Uh, yeah? Entertaining yourself is something that we need to do as human beings.

Buying a video game for entertainment = acceptable

Willing to put down money for a quality ending to your favorite series, again for entertainment = sad

k

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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PartOfYourWorld posted...
From: TheRock1525 | #041
That's pretty sad, I've got to be honest.
Eh, not gonna fight you or anything, but as I've said, ME3's ending is the single most disappointing thing I've ever experienced as a gamer. It's the only series I've ever played where the saga actually ends (still haven't played MGS4), and unlike MGS, Mass Effect was all about the trilogy from the very beginning. It was known to be a trilogy with everyone knowing that the third game would end it, so anticipation was huge among fans. After 4+ years and hundreds of gameplay hours invested into the series, I just felt so empty when it ended. So yeah, I'd pay Bioware some decent coin to correct that feeling.

I have no problem with you being upset about the ending, but I feel like putting down more than $60 for an alternate ending is both A) a very bad use of money and B) a complete undervaluing of the journey. There's no ending in the world that would leave me this wanting to do that if the game itself was good enough. And I'm heavily invested in Mass Effect as well, but I never saw it as reaching a final goal. It was all about the events along the way.

Understandable that people want closure and maybe the ending didn't provide that, but I feel like everyone's focusing so much on the ending and very little on how good the story was along the way.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Oh, and quick comment here:

this happens with every franchise. MGS, Xenosaga, LOST, Mass Effect -- I cannot wait to see how they handle Assassin's Creed. that is going to be a nightmare.

There are a couple differences between something like LOST and ME3. Despite how crummy I believe the final season was, many people really enjoyed the emotional manipulation of the final episode; in other words, a significant portion of the fanbase was satisfied. From what I've read, no one was satisfied with ME3, and most were outraged. That's the kind of thing that may warrant a rewrite.

By the way, I thought the ends of Xenosaga/MGS were well-received?

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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Self-entitled jerks are using the Internet to broadcast their whining that things didn't happen the way they wanted...

STOP THE PRESSES, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!

It's better to let them vent than bottle up their frustration. If they can't get over it eventually, then that's their problem, not ours.

You know, not knowing what the ending is myself, I still bet there's gonna be a Mass Effect 4. Remember when we were supposed to "Finish the Fight" in Halo 3? Look how that turned out. Game developers love money way too much to just let Mass Effect rot in the attic.

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PSN: JDTAY87

From: rychu_supadude | #055
Self-entitled jerks

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/13/mass-effect-3-and-the-pernicious-myth-of-gamer-entitlement/

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Westbrick posted...
Uh, yeah? Entertaining yourself is something that we need to do as human beings.

Buying a video game for entertainment = acceptable

Willing to put down money for a quality ending to your favorite series, again for entertainment = sad

k

You honestly don't see the difference between the two?

One provides hours of entertainment that had one flaw in it.

The other is a 5 minute clip that replaces the flaw in it.

Once again, this is completely undervaluing the entertainment provided by the game without the ending. In yo's eyes (nothing against him here) he's putting more value into the ending than he is the rest of the game. 99% of the game is LESS important than1% of it. I just can't agree with that, it's silly.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

no one was satisfied with ME3

I know icon liked it and someone else.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

You put a high value on the quantity of entertainment.

Other people put a higher value on the quality. And to them, the closure or lack thereof is a major component of the quality.

This is called having a different opinion. And for the record, I actually agree with you on how valuable the journey itself is. I'm just saying, it's pretty silly to call people who disagree "sad."

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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From: TheRock1525 | #059
no one was satisfied with ME3

I know icon liked it and someone else.

They are in the extreme minority in that regard, that one poll has it at like 91% of people dissatisfied with the ending.

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someone else reporting in

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I'm no longer a Nadal supporter. Andy Murray is my new favorite player/person. -Princess Anri

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/13/mass-effect-3-and-the-pernicious-myth-of-gamer-entitlement/

This is an exceptional article. I do often feel like the gaming community is really backwards and immature (in its adolescence, really).

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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Really stupid yet oddly brilliant money scheme at the same time (If it goes through, which it wont)

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Oh SuperNiceDog's doing it again dude.
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Rad Link 5 posted...
You put a high value on the quantity of entertainment.

Other people put a higher value on the quality. And to them, the closure or lack thereof is a major component of the quality.

This is called having a different opinion. And for the record, I actually agree with you on how valuable the journey itself is. I'm just saying, it's pretty silly to call people who disagree "sad."

Actually, I value both. If a game is mediocre all the way through, it doesn't matter how much of it there is, it's still mediocre.

There's plenty of high QUALITY throughout the entire game, though. It's not an issue of quantity vs. quality, it's an issue of Mass Effect containing a lot of quality along the way. There's no shortage of quality along the way, and basing so much importance on one single aspect seems to be undermining the gaming experience. Mass Effect contains both quality and quantity, so that's not the issue.

Please understand that I think the position is sad, not the person. It probably wasn't the best terminology but I really think the position is rather silly.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Calling it quantity vs quality wasn't what I meant to do there. I only brought up quantity because you mentioned how many hours of entertainment it provided. I meant to focus on the fact that to you it's the hours of entertainment leading up to the ending that's worth it, but to others, it's the closure that can make or break the whole thing.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3227/clifflee154920101500994.jpg

Please understand that I think the position is sad, not the person. It probably wasn't the best terminology but I really think the position is rather silly.

What if 2001 ended with a clown dancing? What if Lord of the Rings ended with a High School Musical number? Does "the journey" suddenly wipe clean the ridiculous conclusion? Would these movies still be remembered as classics?

The ending of something sanctifies the rest of the story, and people want the ending to be at least tolerable. Just accept that alternative positions to your own aren't "sad."

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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Then I don't think video games is a very good means of entertainment because endings are rarely ever good or, hell, even satisfactory. Sure, you've got your MGS3's and your FFX's in there, but for the most part trying to wrap up games into a neat little package at the end is pretty damn hard. It's one of the inherent flaws of the package. Hell, my favorite game of all time has a rather underwhelming and confusing ending (FFVII).

It's not that it's a wrong opinion to have (as opinion can never truly be wrong unless it contradicts fact) but I don't think you should be looking towards video games for "closure" in terms of endings.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

This was more of a special case, really, since with all the focus on your choices and how they would play out, people were expecting more out of the ending than usual.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1132/ss02b.jpg

What if 2001 ended with a clown dancing? What if Lord of the Rings ended with a High School Musical number? Does "the journey" suddenly wipe clean the ridiculous conclusion?

A) These are all movie examples, not games. Completely different medium of entertainment that you can't make comparisons to. For one thing, movies and books don't have gameplay elements to them. Books don't have vocal elements to them, and movies don't have interactive elements to them. There's multiple differences between the two, enough so that a comparison doesn't really work.
B) These are gross exaggerations as well. Mass Effect 3's ending doesn't do this. Maybe it's underwhelming and maybe it contradicts prior events, but there's no musical number breaking out at the end of it.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Rad Link 5 posted...
This was more of a special case, really, since with all the focus on your choices and how they would play out, people were expecting more out of the ending than usual.

Your choices DO matter, they just didn't have a direct impact on the ending like they expected. Understandable that they were upset about that, but I've found several instances where choices I've made in previous games affected things further down the line, whether it's one character living or dying, one character appearing at all, etc.

Of course, as I said before, in a BioWare game rarely does the ending change due to your actions. KotOR is the only one I can think of that I've played. In ME1, no matter what you do along the way, you still stop Saren. In DA:O, no matter what your choices are, you still defeat the Archdemon. In ME2, no matter who's loyal and who survives, you still destroy the Collectors.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

A) These are all movie examples, not games. Completely different medium of entertainment that you can't make comparisons to. For one thing, movies and books don't have gameplay elements to them. Books don't have vocal elements to them, and movies don't have interactive elements to them. There's multiple differences between the two, enough so that a comparison doesn't really work.

There is no difference between the plots of video games and movies other than player interactivity (which, by the way, is a central complaint of the ME3 ending: the player's choices were ultimately meaningless). What, are you going to argue that we can't compare television and movies now?

B) These are gross exaggerations as well. Mass Effect 3's ending doesn't do this. Maybe it's underwhelming and maybe it contradicts prior events, but there's no musical number breaking out at the end of it.

I've never seen outcry like this before, so, shockingly, it may not be that much of an exaggeration.

And the overwhelming majority of video game RPGs have competent endings. Not always great, but satisfactory.

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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From: TheRock1525 | #068
Then I don't think video games is a very good means of entertainment because endings are rarely ever good or, hell, even satisfactory. Sure, you've got your MGS3's and your FFX's in there, but for the most part trying to wrap up games into a neat little package at the end is pretty damn hard. It's one of the inherent flaws of the package. Hell, my favorite game of all time has a rather underwhelming and confusing ending (FFVII).

It's not that it's a wrong opinion to have (as opinion can never truly be wrong unless it contradicts fact) but I don't think you should be looking towards video games for "closure" in terms of endings.

Your opinion is pretty much in the absolute minority there. The vast majority of great games finish things in a satisfactory fashion, not the other way around.

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I still like ME3, but I thought the ending was... 'Meh'.

No real variety to the endings, which is the main problem. Even if they were unsatisfactory, I'd rather see a bunch of endings that varied depending on what you did.

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See You In Another Life, Brother.
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Your opinion is pretty much in the absolute minority there. The vast majority of great games finish things in a satisfactory fashion, not the other way around.

I'm reflecting on all the games I've played over the years, and many more fall into the below average category.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

There is no difference between the plots of video games and movies other than player interactivity (which, by the way, is a central complaint of the ME3 ending: the player's choices were ultimately meaningless). What, are you going to argue that we can't compare television and movies now?

Because there's plenty of examples of great games that don't even have stories, so no, you can't compare the two. You can't compare something that requires interactivity vs. something that doesn't. In a movie, the only way they can entertain you is through the storytelling. That's it. That's all they have. Same thing with a book. With a game, you can make a completely awesome/engaging game and not even have a word of dialogue or a hint of storyline. Therefore you can't examine them the both way, especially since you can tell story THROUGH gameplay, something that you can't do with movies.

I'll give that it's different with something like an RPG where storyline is more important than something like a FPS or a puzzle game, but once again it's still one element and should be treated as such. And this is one element of one element, too. This isn't even the complete story, it's just the ending. Can the ending weigh more heavily that any individual moment along the way? Sure. But placing complete and utter satisfaction with the product on the ending is a bad, bad idea with a video game.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Because there's plenty of examples of great games that don't even have stories, so no, you can't compare the two.

Of course you can. There are games where storytelling plays a central role, and there are games where it doesn't. In the former category, you can compare the storytelling elements to any other storytelling medium, including movies.

I'll give that it's different with something like an RPG where storyline is more important than something like a FPS or a puzzle game, but once again it's still one element and should be treated as such.

And it is being treated as such. The gameplay has been universally well-received. But because ME is a series with a heavy emphasis on story, and because the story's conclusion was so poor, fans are rightfully upset.

The "It's a video game!" excuse doesn't hold water, sorry.

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The Many Forms of Kobe:
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Of course you can. There are games where storytelling plays a central role, and there are games where it doesn't. In the former category, you can compare the storytelling elements to any other storytelling medium, including movies.

No, you really can't. You can't compare non-interactive storytelling to interactive storytelling. For one thing, the latter relies on the consumer's direct input, especially in a game like ME3. Your experience is completely dependent on your choices. When watching a movie, everyone experiences a movie. When reading a book, everyone experiences the same book. When everyone plays a video game, EVERYONE has a unique experience. And it's not even just for RPGs alone. Even Mario games from the NES are unique experiences: not everyone progress to the same levels, some people use warps. Not everyone kills the same enemies.

When you go watch Schindler's List, you're watching the same Schindler's List everyone else is. When you go play Mass Effect 3, you're playing a different experience from everyone else.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

No, you really can't. You can't compare non-interactive storytelling to interactive storytelling. For one thing, the latter relies on the consumer's direct input, especially in a game like ME3. Your experience is completely dependent on your choices. When watching a movie, everyone experiences a movie. When reading a book, everyone experiences the same book. When everyone plays a video game, EVERYONE has a unique experience. And it's not even just for RPGs alone. Even Mario games from the NES are unique experiences: not everyone progress to the same levels, some people use warps. Not everyone kills the same enemies.

You're making a completely arbitrary distinction that has nothing to do with storytelling. It'd be like if I just stated as a fact "You can't compare episodic storytelling to film storytelling," even though, despite their differences, both follow basic plot conventions.

We all know that ME3 has player involvement. The story still sucks.

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Forever LOLphins
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Correction, the ending sucks. The game is fantastic.

GranzonEx posted...
Correction, the ending sucks. The game is fantastic.

This.

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Gamertag/PSN-Murphiroth
"Would have liked to run tests on the seashells..."

You're making a completely arbitrary distinction that has nothing to do with storytelling. It'd be like if I just stated as a fact "You can't compare episodic storytelling to film storytelling," even though, despite their differences, both follow basic plot conventions.

We all know that ME3 has player involvement. The story still sucks.

Gaming doesn't follow plot conventions because it's also at the mercy of GAMEPLAY. The only reason a story even exists is become of GAMEPLAY. Movies don't have to rely on GAMEPLAY. TV doesn't have to rely on GAMEPLAY. That's pretty damn important: when a one moment Shepard can go help a bunch of refugees and the next moment you can shoot your own squad member in cold blood. If we go by movie/book/TV standards that would be considered inconsistent characterization. Considering that Shepard is completely at the mercy of the player, you can make decisions all over the place. Under "conventional" storytelling analysis you'd characterize Shepard as poorly written, which is why you can't compare the two. Especially not with a series like Mass Effect. Hey, I made a pro-human Shepard, but then in the final act I decided to kill a bunch of humans to save three aliens. Character derailment!

What's funny is that people don't think the story sucks, just the ending. Everyone was happy with the story until then.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

When I said that the story sucks, I meant the ending, yes. Although it's worth noting that a single bad part, especially something as important as the conclusion, can ruin the whole. It's like a five-star dinner plate with a piece of raw chicken sitting right in the middle.

I really have no idea why you're being so stubborn, Rock. You're making a bunch of completely irrelevant points that do nothing to bolster your position. Yes, GAMEPLAY is involved in a video GAME. Sometimes, the story will be separate from the GAMEPLAY, and other times it will be integrated into the GAMEPLAY. And while there are some key differences (in ME3, for example, you can control the lead, as you pointed out), the GAMEPLAY doesn't impact the story enough for it to be judged differently.

Explain this to me: how does the GAMEPLAY somehow warrant an ending completely inconsistent in tone with the rest of the story, one that negates a central aspect of the GAMEPLAY in regards to player choice?

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Forever LOLphins
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I really have no idea why you're being so stubborn, Rock. You're making a bunch of completely irrelevant points that do nothing to bolster your position. Yes, GAMEPLAY is involved in a video GAME. Sometimes, the story will be separate from the GAMEPLAY, and other times it will be integrated into the GAMEPLAY. And while there are some key differences (in ME3, for example, you can control the lead, as you pointed out), the GAMEPLAY doesn't impact the story enough for it to be judged differently.

Yes, it does. Gameplay affects who's alive and who's dead, who you can interact with and who you can't, and even affects scenarios moving forward throughout the entire series. Commander Shepard can DIE and not be available for the third game. These aren't minor elements to the storyline, either. Yes, certain events play out the same way, but not all or hell, even the majority. Characters suddenly fail where they could have succeeded. Allies you betrayed suddenly come back for blood when they would have followed you to the ends of the Earth. Things do change.

Explain this to me: how does the GAMEPLAY somehow warrant an ending completely inconsistent in tone with the rest of the story, one that negates a central aspect of the GAMEPLAY in regards to player choice?

Except, from what I understand, the players HAVE a choice. There's actually three choices in how the game ends. People just don't like the choices. Previous games you really didn't have a choice: you had to stop Saren and you had to stop the Collectors.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Yes, it does. Gameplay affects who's alive and who's dead, who you can interact with and who you can't, and even affects scenarios moving forward throughout the entire series. Commander Shepard can DIE and not be available for the third game. These aren't minor elements to the storyline, either. Yes, certain events play out the same way, but not all or hell, even the majority. Characters suddenly fail where they could have succeeded. Allies you betrayed suddenly come back for blood when they would have followed you to the ends of the Earth. Things do change.

Please stop repeating this point. Please. We get it: video game storytelling includes player
involvement. This does nothing to prevent it from being compared to other types of storytelling.

Except, from what I understand, the players HAVE a choice. There's actually three choices in how the game ends. People just don't like the choices. Previous games you really didn't have a choice: you had to stop Saren and you had to stop the Collectors.

Oh, well this explains everything: you have no idea what you're talking about. Go ask anyone who's complained about ME3, about the expectations the game built up, and about the sameness of the three "different" ending.

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