Board 8 > Street Figher X Tekken Costume Gallery

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They sell products that let you tuck it away so well that it's unnoticeable. Also Ono straight up said she tucks it away "in Japan," and Capcom keeps saying she "looks like a woman, but looks can be deceiving," which sounds like a pretty blunt "she doesn't have the equipment she looks like she has" statement.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Well "she looks like a finely curved woman, but looks can be deceiving" doesn't necessarily mean "she has a dick guyz" it could also just mean "she's brutal like a man" or some crap. Or it could just mean "she's transgendered" because uh, a lot of people won't see a transgendered woman as a "finely curved woman" no matter how convincing she looks.

Point is it fits the "intentionally ambiguous" schtick Capcom has been doing pretty well. The fact that they took that line down to make it more ambiguous helps that too.

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Didn't the person who designed the character flat out say it was intended to be a chick but got changed or whatever.

That's good enough for me.

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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From: StealThisSheen | #053
Didn't the person who designed the character flat out say it was intended to be a chick but got changed or whatever.

Nope.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Named after the band by an unnamed female employee at Capcom, she was designed by Akira Yasuda to contrast against the bigger characters in the game and move about randomly. According to the book All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games, the characters were originally planned to be normal females, but were changed to transsexual females (or more specifically "newhalfs") due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America and the concern that feminist groups would sue. This was not enough and when the game was finally released in North America, Poison and Roxy were replaced entirely with male punk enemies called Sid and Billy.


This is what I'm referring to, so I remembered it wrong, slightly. Either way, was this proved false or something?

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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That's the story I gave earlier, but Pun's video dismisses the idea that it was ever intended for Poison to be a natural-born female on the basis that even the early-early sketches of her are labeled "newhalf."

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
http://i51.tinypic.com/2dqowae.jpg

Well those sketches weren't that early, to be fair. They were actually pretty close to what the in game model looked like. Concept art usually has more than one step so I wouldn't be too surprised if earlier concepts didn't have her that way if there actually is evidence to the contrary.

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Rad Link 5 posted...
That's the story I gave earlier, but Pun's video dismisses the idea that it was ever intended for Poison to be a natural-born female on the basis that even the early-early sketches of her are labeled "newhalf."


Is that all the video bases it on, that one sketch? I didn't watch the whole thing, but why does this one guy suddenly have a sketch nobody else does?

Unless he actually states why and I'm too lazy to watch the whole thing. >_>

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Yeah he just debunks it off of that sketch

I was assuming that the other story was just a wives tale and that was being used to debunk it, but if the other story actually has sourcing I don't really think the sketch is strong enough to toss it-- especially since the sketch looks almost exactly like the in game model meaning it was probably the latest concept art they had

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I'm pretty sure he stated where he got the sketch from. It's concept art, so it's not like no one else has it. Newhalf is written in Japanese on it, though, which may be why you haven't seen it every time this argument is brought up.

And no, the sketch is really more the cornerstone of the argument. He basically brought up all these things from at least three years before the US release referring to her as a newhalf.

Her being a biological female is (edit:) contrary to everything Capcom has ever said about her, but I mean if that's the only thing you feel comfortable with for whatever reason, she's a fictional character, so she's really whatever anybody wants her to be.

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Oh, I don't care what she/he/whatever is. Even if they intended the character to be female originally, it's not anymore and never was. Intention =/= action.

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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SHE'S A HOT CHICK AND I'LL GET OFF TO NAKED PICTURES OF HER IF I WANT

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XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe

Well it's not about relative to the US's release, because it's obvious that from the point of the Japanese release they'd already planned that because it's in the instruction manual too. The question is whether the original intent pre-release (which could be pre-late development concept art as well)

Not that that even necessarily makes her biologically female or anything, but I'm just saying. If the original original idea was for that, then it becomes more feasible that that's the direction she's taken now outside the first Final Fight game (which is where all the concrete stuff is from)

Not that it matters because "intention" right now is for her to be "ambiguous" anyway, and I don't really care either-- I'm just playing devil's advocate for her being a woman at this point because the controversy is what makes her interesting after all.

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It is about relativity to the US release though because even if they already knew they were eventually bringing the game to America (which is never a sure thing), it would not have been the first time they put content in a game that Americans in the early 90s would object to, and then removed it from the US release. Japan doesn't have nearly as big a taboo surrounding cross-dressing. I just don't buy that they made her a newhalf because they were worried about America. I mean America back then mostly had a bigger problem with cross-dressers/transexuals than they did with punching women, anyway.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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You could've watched the video 2 times by now, SEP

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BIGPUN9999 posted...
You could've watched the video 2 times by now, SEP


But I was already told it's based basically entirely on the sketch and stuff we already know.

That has nothing to do with the actual debate.

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Rad Link 5 posted...
It is about relativity to the US release though because even if they already knew they were eventually bringing the game to America (which is never a sure thing), it would not have been the first time they put content in a game that Americans in the early 90s would object to, and then removed it from the US release. Japan doesn't have nearly as big a taboo surrounding cross-dressing. I just don't buy that they made her a newhalf because they were worried about America. I mean America back then mostly had a bigger problem with cross-dressers/transexuals than they did with punching women, anyway.


But the final US product was two redesigned dudes, anyway. If you create a chick, then decide you don't want to be taboo, easiest thing may be to go "Well, uh... It's a dude." But then when you realize it doesn't even look like a dude and that in itself will create problems...

Like, it's obvious America was in mind all along, or they'd have done nothing at all instead of giving us Billy and Sid. It's just... How much did they change their minds.

EDIT: Like, for instance... If Poison was meant to be a newhalf from the start, and they thought that'd cause problems in America... Why not just say it's a chick, here? Clearly, they thought that'd cause problems, too, because we got dudes.

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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Can't unsee Hugo's 2nd.

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From: StealThisSheen | #066
From: Rad Link 5
It is about relativity to the US release though because even if they already knew they were eventually bringing the game to America (which is never a sure thing), it would not have been the first time they put content in a game that Americans in the early 90s would object to, and then removed it from the US release. Japan doesn't have nearly as big a taboo surrounding cross-dressing. I just don't buy that they made her a newhalf because they were worried about America. I mean America back then mostly had a bigger problem with cross-dressers/transexuals than they did with punching women, anyway.


But the final US product was two redesigned dudes, anyway. If you create a chick, then decide you don't want to be taboo, easiest thing may be to go "Well, uh... It's a dude." But then when you realize it doesn't even look like a dude and that in itself will create problems...

Like, it's obvious America was in mind all along, or they'd have done nothing at all instead of giving us Billy and Sid. It's just... How much did they change their minds.

You're looking at it entirely wrong. Billy and Sid were only made once they decided they were bringing it to America. If they had America in mind all along, it probably would have been Billy and Sid from the beginning.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Cant we just all agree that we all want Poison to bang Bridgette and be done with it

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Circle gets the Scare!
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By the way, I just loaded up Capcom Classics Remixed to check, and the sketch in question appears in the art section, in case there was still any doubt that the sketch is real.

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Rad Link 5 posted...
If they had America in mind all along, it probably would have been Billy and Sid from the beginning.


Not really, since the creator said they wanted somebody different. And if you follow your logic of... Punching a woman is less taboo than a transgender to America... Why would they go out of the way to make it a dude instead of just telling us it was a chick? Like, why is the first thought instantly "I want somebody different. ...I know, newhalf." Clearly, America was in the thought process, because with that much work done, you don't go "Newhalf to completely different guy" for America instead of "Newhalf to chick," unless you already thought America was going to have issues with a chick in the first place.

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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That doesn't necessarily matter. It's possible they changed it on the Japanese release in anticipation of a possible US release, then realize "hey we didn't think our brilliant plan all the way through this is going to offend silly americans just as much" later after it already came out in Japan and went more extreme later with the complete change.

Or they thought of it in development but it was so late they just wanted a product out there, so they slap on a "newhalf" tag on it in the instruction manual and hope that'll be enough, then realize by the time it's time to port it that that's not gonna cut it. Keep in mind that video games back then were a lot less lucrative so pushing back deadlines for trifling things was not done often.

It could also be that hitting women was offensive to Japanese as well at the time so they were trying to use the whole newhalf thing to cover them there too.

Lot of reasons possible, there.

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Alright, let's put this to rest then.

If Poison was made a newhalf with America in mind, why did they leave Roxy a female?

And yes, Roxy is, and has always been female.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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That's actually the best argument.

The best theory I can think of there is because you could easily just palette swap Poisons over all the Roxys if you thought it'd be a good enough solution for America since the sprite is the same.

It's kind of a stretch though.

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It's not kind of a stretch, it's outright silly.

If they really made Poison a newhalf with America in mind, they wouldn't go "well we'll put a female in there too anyway."

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Well no the point is you have a character concept to explain all the female sprites in the game but you don't need to make both of them because the only reason the newhalf is in there is as a failsafe.

Like if there was an American release from back then that had them both in the game, or if Roxy had a different sprite, I'd buy it as ironclad, but it's very easy to just replace the yellow haired sprites with more pink haired sprites and only have one "female" character if that was good enough a solution. It makes even more sense if you think that the gender change was a (relatively) last minute thing.

I'm not sure I buy this as likely but it's silly to say it's not a possibility, at least.

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You know what else is easy? Not having female sprites in the first place.

Which is what they would have done if they were worried about America, instead of making one of them a newhalf!

I don't mean to be a jerk about it, but your theory is really, really silly.

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Rad Link 5 posted...
Alright, let's put this to rest then.

If Poison was made a newhalf with America in mind, why did they leave Roxy a female?

And yes, Roxy is, and has always been female.


Roxy's just a palette swap. I don't really see how Roxy being female decides anything, since that's as simple as just making a snap decision after debating everything with Poison. I mean, it's not like Roxy truly "exists" beyond being a palette swap. Was Roxy even addressed as anything before Classics Collection?

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SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996
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I just told you a reason they wouldn't remove the female sprites, though. You assume that the devs all have unlimited foresight or unlimited development time. Neither one was close to the case especially for late 80s games, which commonly were released with nasty glitches or things that just didn't work right.

It's a hell of a lot easier to slap "newhalf" onto concept art and into the manual than redraw an entire spriteset because you realize "hey maybe we shouldn't have a woman getting beat up" close to the release date

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From: StealThisSheen | #079
Roxy's just a palette swap. I don't really see how Roxy being female decides anything, since that's as simple as just making a snap decision after debating everything with Poison. I mean, it's not like Roxy truly "exists" beyond being a palette swap. Was Roxy even addressed as anything before Classics Collection?

Yup. She has a profile in all the original manuals released for the game, just like everyone else in the game.

From: Lopen | #080
I just told you a reason they wouldn't remove the female sprites, though. You assume that the devs all have unlimited foresight or unlimited development time. Neither one was close to the case especially for late 80s games, which commonly were released with nasty glitches or things that just didn't work right.

It's a hell of a lot easier to slap "newhalf" onto concept art and into the manual than redraw an entire spriteset because you realize "hey maybe we shouldn't have a woman getting beat up" close to the release date

My point stands, then. If they decided at the last minute that she would be a newhalf to avoid controversy, which we're agreeing is the only way they go ahead and draw the female sprites and then later decide she's a newhalf, then why wouldn't they make Roxy a newhalf, too? I know you keep saying "they could just replace Roxy's sprites with Poison's," but why would they do that instead of just calling them both newhalfs and being done with it all together?

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For the record, Billy and Sid were only replacements in the SNES version. US Arcade version still has Poison and Roxy

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One tangential question though.

From: Rad Link 5 | #081
Yup. She has a profile in all the original manuals released for the game, just like everyone else in the game.

Are you sure about this by the way? Are you sure she both had a profile in the manual and that if they both did they didn't both say newhalf? Most sources I'd read before this point had them both as transgendered, and the concept art has the "newhalf" under both of them not just Poison.

I tried googling the manual to no help but yeah... you sure the Roxy thing wasn't just a retcon for the fighting classics version?

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Oh hey actually found it:

http://www.videogameden.com/sfc/extra/fif.pdf

Roxy's not actually in there.

So yeah the answer to the Roxy argument is "that's a retcon"

And yes I wasted way too much time looking for that. Half the reason I was looking was just to see if I could find it, though. Google scavenger hunting is fun once in a while! <_<

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