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Board 8 > There's one amazing thing in the Megaman Classic VS Megaman X Sequelitis episode

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 6:34:00 AM
#1:


And it's the comparison between how old games and new games teach their players new things. The old way was so much better why did they change it I don't know.



First 5 minutes or so are about it, the whole video is freaking awesome though.

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 8:11:00 AM
#2:


Bump.

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BIGPUN9999
01/31/12 8:25:00 AM
#3:


From: Ayuyu | #001
The old way was so much better why did they change it I don't know.


button theres 10 buttons as opposed to 2-6 and controls are much more complicated

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 8:28:00 AM
#4:


ya i mean i agree with sequelitis on a lot, but gameplay in general became a lot more complex in 3D environments. Mega Man for its time did it correctly, but in todays world im not so sure it would be as effective.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 8:35:00 AM
#5:


From: Ayuyu | #001
And it's the comparison between how old games and new games teach their players new things. The old way was so much better why did they change it I don't know.



First 5 minutes or so are about it, the whole video is freaking awesome though.


You mean minute 7 up to 15 (ish). That's a much better section of the video IMO.

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SockoDeus
01/31/12 8:36:00 AM
#6:


The "teaching players through gameplay" thing was interesting, but "Riding on Cars" blew my mind.

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VitalVI
01/31/12 8:37:00 AM
#7:


From: SockoDeus | #006
"Riding on Cars" blew my mind.


Same

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JaKyL25
01/31/12 8:45:00 AM
#8:


It's quite jarring how easily you can imagine Roll popping up and going "Mega Man! Mega Man! Those are called Hammer Joes! blah blah blah" if the game was made today.

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WazzupGenius00
01/31/12 9:00:00 AM
#9:


The Mega Man Anniversary Collection has something kinda like it actually, but it's completely optional. Plus the tips it gave from what I remember were usually not obvious things like that, they were more like cheap exploits you could use.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 9:00:00 AM
#10:


From: JaKyL25 | #008
It's quite jarring how easily you can imagine Roll popping up and going "Mega Man! Mega Man! Those are called Hammer Joes! blah blah blah" if the game was made today.


And it's quite jarring how easily you can imagine this not being a bad thing. Sequelitis makes a clear point, but I think there's too much negativity towards telling the player stuff. It can easily help immersion, which is a valuable thing, so there's no reason to say 'NO YOU IDIOT DON'T DO THIS *PUNCH*'.

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 9:03:00 AM
#11:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #010
And it's quite jarring how easily you can imagine this not being a bad thing. Sequelitis makes a clear point, but I think there's too much negativity towards telling the player stuff. It can easily help immersion, which is a valuable thing, so there's no reason to say 'NO YOU IDIOT DON'T DO THIS *PUNCH*'.


What, being interrupted during gameplay helps immersion?

What?

What?

I mean what?

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 9:06:00 AM
#12:


From: Ayuyu | #011
What, being interrupted during gameplay helps immersion?

What?

What?

I mean what?


You seriously can't see how this can be done correctly? Do I have to spell it out with specific, detailed examples?

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:09:00 AM
#13:


every time roll pops up in this vid it just makes me think of fi :( game designers these days pretty much assume the players are mentally handicapped apes, it's hard to play a lot of newer games that have that mentality
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Ayuyu
01/31/12 9:11:00 AM
#14:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #012
You seriously can't see how this can be done correctly? Do I have to spell it out with specific, detailed examples?


As long as it doesn't involve voice acting or text it can be good.

I'm really a fan of the '' show, don't tell '' thing that doesn't exist anymore in game and wish it'd come back.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 9:13:00 AM
#15:


From: Ayuyu | #014
As long as it doesn't involve voice acting or text it can be good.

I'm really a fan of the '' show, don't tell '' thing that doesn't exist anymore in game and wish it'd come back.


And funnily enough, I am speaking of text and voice-acting. Just so we're clear, I'm talking about explanations that aren't 'press X to kill monster', and (generally, there are exceptions) don't take control away from you. The idea is that you progress the plot as you explain the mechanics, so that it becomes hard to tell what's plot advancement and what is mechanics explanation, but at the end of the day you know what you gotta do.

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 9:16:00 AM
#16:


But see, I don't even want the plot to be told through dialogues.

I want to be shown what's happening.

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Dauntless Hunter
01/31/12 9:16:00 AM
#17:


I said it back when this video first got posted, but his whole point about how you feel stronger because you beat Vile later is bull****. You get all those upgrades and when you fight Vile again you still can't do **** and he still traps you with that electric cage shot and you STILL have to have Zero save you.

I kinda feel like he didn't play through the end of the game when he was making this video and was just basing it off memory, like he remembered beating Vile but not the details that completely invalidated his whole argument.

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Leebo86
01/31/12 9:18:00 AM
#18:


I've never played MMX, but didn't he show a clip of X shooting Vile and doing some good damage to him.

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JaKyL25
01/31/12 9:19:00 AM
#19:


That doesn't invalidate what he's saying though. You still go through the game wanting to be as powerful as Zero, hyped up for the next time you meet Vile. It's still a major driving force behind the game.

Sure, the PAYOFF may not be congruent with the buildup, but you don't know that until you actually get there.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 9:23:00 AM
#20:


From: Ayuyu | #016
But see, I don't even want the plot to be told through dialogues.

I want to be shown what's happening.


So you want no dialogue. Gotcha, but you're in the minority and I think your ideas suck. I'll take my characters speaking and interacting with each other, thank you very much.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123
01/31/12 9:24:00 AM
#21:


I don't know why Roll has to take the crap for that, Alia from X5 was EXACTLY like that and pretty much ruined the game for me.

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Dauntless Hunter
01/31/12 9:25:00 AM
#22:


From: Leebo86 | #018
I've never played MMX, but didn't he show a clip of X shooting Vile and doing some good damage to him.


If he did, it was after he wrecked you again using his Ride Armor, just like the first fight. Then Zero takes out the Ride Armor for you, and you fight Vile on his own which never happened the first time.

From: JaKyL25 | #019
That doesn't invalidate what he's saying though. You still go through the game wanting to be as powerful as Zero, hyped up for the next time you meet Vile. It's still a major driving force behind the game.

Sure, the PAYOFF may not be congruent with the buildup, but you don't know that until you actually get there.


Sorry but it does. His point isn't that you WANT to get strong enough to beat Vile, it was that you DO. But you actually DON'T.

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JaKyL25
01/31/12 9:28:00 AM
#23:


From: Dauntless Hunter | #022
Sorry but it does. His point isn't that you WANT to get strong enough to beat Vile, it was that you DO. But you actually DON'T.


I disagree entirely. His whole point is that you WANT to get strong enough to be like Zero and beat Vile, and every upgrade you get gets you one step closer.

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Leebo86
01/31/12 9:28:00 AM
#24:


From: Dauntless Hunter | #022
His point isn't that you WANT to get strong enough to beat Vile


I thought it was. Like, he's talking about what motivates you to keep getting the upgrades.

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:30:00 AM
#25:


I can agree that it's a bit of a stretch but really the "show don't tell" mechanics that a lot of classics had is what I had the most appreciation for in this video, the vile thing is a minor point.
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Biolizard28
01/31/12 9:34:00 AM
#26:


Right, Vile is never beaten.

Oh wait, yes he is, you're just being a douche.

From: Metal_DK | #004
ya i mean i agree with sequelitis on a lot, but gameplay in general became a lot more complex in 3D environments. Mega Man for its time did it correctly, but in todays world im not so sure it would be as effective.


Which begs the question: Why would you create a game that's so complex that you need to take a minute to explain everything that needs to be done and how to do it to the player?

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:36:00 AM
#27:


because people love forced tutorials

like the junction tutorial in FFVIII

it's like the best thing in that game
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Xuxon
01/31/12 9:37:00 AM
#28:


what that isn't forced, just press cancel

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:38:00 AM
#29:


yes but the tutorial is the best part of the game why would you do that
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Xuxon
01/31/12 9:39:00 AM
#30:


then again people skipping that tutorial is why they end up summoning through the whole game and can't beat the end of disc 3

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 9:39:00 AM
#31:


What, being interrupted during gameplay helps immersion?

What?

What?

I mean what?

good story, dialogue, and plot development create immersion WAY better than gameplay.

And before you just tell me to read a book or something, i enjoy good gameplay for what it is too. A more enjoyable way to test your thinking skills than studying for a test, and a way to test your reflexes.

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:41:00 AM
#32:


then again people skipping that tutorial is why they end up summoning through the whole game and can't beat the end of disc 3

it's funny how in having a bunch of lazily written instructions they also don't tell you a lot of the rules, I don't believe it ever says in game that leveling up is actually a bad thing -_-
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WazzupGenius00
01/31/12 9:42:00 AM
#33:


Egoraptor's point isn't immersion though, his point is that you feel better about the game and you're more likely to remember how the mechanic works if you learn it yourself without the game telling you what to do

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 9:47:00 AM
#34:


Which begs the question: Why would you create a game that's so complex that you need to take a minute to explain everything that needs to be done and how to do it to the player?

Well with this "casual games" revolution that you are seeing a lot of from about 07 to the present....i think you are seeing people not create games that are so complex.

But usually a game that is so complex that it needs to teach you how to play it can be good if:

1) if it has a good story. Games that are easy to learn how to play for some reason have a harder time having a good story attached to them. Lets face it about mega man x. While egoraptor makes it seem like its story is top notch, its not really anything special. Its good for the gameplay that mega man and mega man x have, but its not a story that id put in a top 100 video game stories list.

2) it teaches you in a way that is also fun. Im not a huge fan of the god of war series, but most people liked its tutorial. It taught through gameplay, but tried to make it as epic as possible.

3) Its complex system that needs to be taught is fun once you learn it. This is subjective mostly. But think about a game like the civilization series. My personal favorite is 2 (4 being a close 2nd), but all of them are pretty damn complex. You won't learn the ins and outs until you complete many games. Hell ive been playing civ 4 for years and I still learn new things when trying a new leader, trying hybrid economic styles (cottage + spies for example), and the sort.

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Xuxon
01/31/12 9:48:00 AM
#35:


From: Liquid Wind | #032
it's funny how in having a bunch of lazily written instructions they also don't tell you a lot of the rules, I don't believe it ever says in game that leveling up is actually a bad thing -_-


well leveling up isn't strictly a bad thing. you can get higher level magic more easily by getting to level 25+, and bosses all have level limits so it's generally better to be higher level against them.

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Liquid Wind
01/31/12 9:51:00 AM
#36:


really because I seem to recall taking down every boss in the game with ease while being at like level 9 IIRC, been a while since I played but I know junctions and limit breaks were so broken that leveling up had no real benefit
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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 9:55:00 AM
#37:


From: Liquid Wind | #036
really because I seem to recall taking down every boss in the game with ease while being at like level 9 IIRC, been a while since I played but I know junctions and limit breaks were so broken that leveling up had no real benefit


Leveling up is the way to power. It's also the challenge mechanic, to boot, so you both become stronger and enemies do (you gain more than they do though).

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WazzupGenius00
01/31/12 9:58:00 AM
#38:


From: Xuxon | #035and bosses all have level limits so it's generally better to be higher level against them.

um what, pretty sure this is not true

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KanzarisKelshen
01/31/12 10:16:00 AM
#39:


From: WazzupGenius00 | #038
um what, pretty sure this is not true


They do. All bosses except maybe Ultimecia and definitely Omega Weapon cap at 50.

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Xuxon
01/31/12 10:18:00 AM
#40:


bosses definitely have level limits, though i couldn't say for sure what the best level to be against them is. for some it might be level 100, for others it might be level 7. most likely, early bosses would be easier at level 100 when their level limit is lower and less powerful magic is available, later bosses you'd want to be as low as possible because you can junction better and their limit is higher, and also diminishing returns for leveling (10-50 adds a lot more than 50-100).

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Mega Mana
01/31/12 10:18:00 AM
#41:


There's an 85% chance forced tutorials usually suck and this video was freaking awesome.

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 6:45:00 PM
#42:


Oh and you guys should watch his Castlevania 4 and 2 episodes if you haven't already.

They're hilarious too and he makes a lot of good points.

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Ayuyu
01/31/12 7:41:00 PM
#43:


Bump.

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 8:18:00 PM
#44:


its a good series. Id like to see him do more.

Maybe MGS1 vs MGS2?

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Dauntless Hunter
01/31/12 9:09:00 PM
#45:


You know what I'd love to see in this series?

Turtles in Time SNES vs one of the newer TMNT beat-em-ups, either the 2003 Konami one or Re-Shelled. I want to see him explain why the old TMNT games are awesome and the newer ones are lame-o.

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 9:33:00 PM
#46:


^agreed

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pjbasis
01/31/12 9:41:00 PM
#47:


Metal_DK posted...
its a good series. Id like to see him do more.

Maybe MGS1 vs MGS2?

The only thing people hate about MGS2 is the story, and the gameplay wasn't improved THAT much to get special notice.

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Metal_DK
01/31/12 10:12:00 PM
#48:


you dont think he could talk about the story? I mean lets face it the MGS series is one of the most story driven games of all time.

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Ayuyu
02/01/12 4:07:00 AM
#49:


I don't know the story can't have that much entertainment value in a video like that, idk.

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OmarsComin
02/01/12 4:10:00 AM
#50:



Turtles in Time SNES vs one of the newer TMNT beat-em-ups, either the 2003 Konami one or Re-Shelled. I want to see him explain why the old TMNT games are awesome and the newer ones are lame-o.

for real

I remember all the reviews being like "the problem with this game is that beat em ups just aren't fun anymore, we've moved on to deeper game experiences"

but that's not actually true at all, TMNT4 is still a blast on SNES
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