So I let a friend borrow my copy of FE7. I've played through the main game, and so unlocked Hector mode, but I never got around to actually playing through Hector's story yet past the first couple chapters.
Apparently he didn't know that Eliwood's story was supposed to be the main game. So after he finished the Lyn part, he went on to Hector's without having played Eliwood's yet. My question is, is this a horrible thing to do? Should he restart the whole thing? Would he even get the entire main plot if he tried to go through Hector mode first? And this is assuming he could, given that Hector mode is harder.
Thanks all.
--
EB: well you see, the explanation is perfectly simple and scientific. EB: it was because shut up. shut up is why.
I don't think that the plot becomes incomprehensible in Hector mode. Basically Eliwood's family problems and confidants are replaced by Hector's, I guess.
Hector mode is more difficult, but not so much that I think it's impossible to finish for a new guy. You should at least let him know he's in for a bumpy ride.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]
They're extremely similar. Hector's story is a bit better, especially if you do all the optional parts, but I think it makes more sense when done last. I don't know if I'd bother going back for Eliwood's story after doing Hector's, like your friend.
--
"But...her voice when she's in pain is pretty adorable, you know?" -Saya, Saya no Uta
Hector is better than Eliwood, so no. Your friend did the right thing.
But... Hector is better on Eliwood's mode than his own! dat late promotion
Also, not sure why one would restart the game for Canas. He's a pretty average unit. A bit Eliwood-ish (balanced growths), so can turn out good or bad easily enough, but certainly nothing exceptional.
(Then again I wouldn't even restart the game for a single extremely good unit, so I'm probably not one to ask.)
-- The RPG Duelling League: www.rpgdl.com An unparalleled source for RPG information and discussion
NeoElfboy posted... Hector is better than Eliwood, so no. Your friend did the right thing.
But... Hector is better on Eliwood's mode than his own! dat late promotion
Also, not sure why one would restart the game for Canas. He's a pretty average unit. A bit Eliwood-ish (balanced growths), so can turn out good or bad easily enough, but certainly nothing exceptional.
(Then again I wouldn't even restart the game for a single extremely good unit, so I'm probably not one to ask.)
NeoElfboy posted... Hector is better than Eliwood, so no. Your friend did the right thing.
But... Hector is better on Eliwood's mode than his own! dat late promotion
Also, not sure why one would restart the game for Canas. He's a pretty average unit. A bit Eliwood-ish (balanced growths), so can turn out good or bad easily enough, but certainly nothing exceptional.
(Then again I wouldn't even restart the game for a single extremely good unit, so I'm probably not one to ask.)
If you miss Canas, chances are you also missed Raven and Lucius.
Canas is average, Luna is his real strength.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
From: NeoElfboy | #008 Also, not sure why one would restart the game for Canas. He's a pretty average unit. A bit Eliwood-ish (balanced growths), so can turn out good or bad easily enough, but certainly nothing exceptional.
HHM every unit has random stat boosts is the main thing. I think every enemy unit gets up to +3 to a random amount of stats or something.
The maps in Hector mode are harder to do too, which you should've known from the normal modes-- slightly more units. HNM is about equal to EHM in difficulty, really.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
Luna is super situational, it's a nice trick but it's *not* a trump card. Canas is my favourite character in the game and I'll be the first to tell you he's an average unit that is by no means needed or even all that important
From: Anagram | #015 What makes Hector Hard Mode harder than Eliwood Hard Mode? I've never tried either, but I've beaten both paths on normal.
HHM has extra enemies, and some enemies change, and the AI is altered a bit. It's basically all the stuff Hector Mode already does (for example, Vaida in chapter 26 and Ursula in chapter 28 are in different places), with a few extra surprises (like Genesis and Cog of Destiny turning into massive onslaughts of enemy magic users)
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
And yeah, both hard modes give enemies bonus levels - any given enemy has something like an extra five levels worth of stat growth, so they end up with better stats despite being listed at the same level (so you don't get extra XP for it). That's why enemy stats will vary a bit in hard modes in Fire Emblem games, because the stats often work out to stuff like 7.3, where an enemy has a 7 in that stat but 30% of the time will have an 8 instead. The exception to this is Fargus in that one side chapter, for reasons no one can fathom (probably comedy) in Eliwood Hard Mode he has gigantic stat boosts that dwarf his HHM self
--
We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Panthera posted... From: kurtfisto | #014 Because LUNA Luna is super situational, it's a nice trick but it's *not* a trump card. Canas is my favourite character in the game and I'll be the first to tell you he's an average unit that is by no means needed or even all that important
It's pretty handy against some enemies though (bosses in particular). He's not needed nor important but very few characters are, so yeah.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
From: SuorGenoveffa | #019 It's pretty handy against some enemies though (bosses in particular). He's not needed nor important but very few characters are, so yeah.
Unfortunately it's only really great against bosses that tend to die way easier to physical attacks (like Kenneth) or who are fast enough that carrying a fifty ton book on your shoulders is poor for your health if you happen to not get the crit/miss with other characters (plus the final chapter throws you Athos who does the Luna thing infinitely better)
--
We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
From: Panthera | #020 (plus the final chapter throws you Athos who does the Luna thing infinitely better)
...except Canas with Luna has the possibility of doubling. In almost all my playthroughs he gets to double the dragon. You're right on him not being essential, then again, nobody is (unless it's something like HHM and the pre-promotes become amazingly useful).
From: kurtfisto | #021 ...except Canas with Luna has the possibility of doubling. In almost all my playthroughs he gets to double the dragon. You're right on him not being essential, then again, nobody is (unless it's something like HHM and the pre-promotes become amazingly useful).
Except Canas is not doubling the dragon unless you throw ridiculous resources at him or get super lucky. The dragon has 16 attack speed (and I think it can get 17 once in a while? I know its strength goes up to 20 on occasion, which sucks hard for Athos who gets OHKO'd). He needs a Body Ring or Speedwing even *with* his 20/20 average speed, and 20/20 is not something that ever happens unless you're deliberately favouring the ever loving hell out of him. Even on normal modes its only one point lower, so the odds aren't any better.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
Unless you're playing for rank doubling is pretty irrelevant for the dragon considering you can just have Athos stay in attack range of the dragon and heal him.
And if you're playing for rank Canas probably doesn't double the dragon because he's probably not high enough level to get the speed reliably unless you're gaming the RNG for stats.
Technically you could give Athos some speedwings too.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
From: Lopen | #023 Unless you're playing for rank doubling is pretty irrelevant for the dragon considering you can just have Athos stay in attack range of the dragon and heal him.
Really you can just have Hector smack it on the head with Armads, do a Luna or three (depending on Canas having the HP and Athos being able to survive and who you dance if you've got the Rescue/Warp staff to save Nils), heal everyone up with Physic and then you win on enemy phase or with one or two more on player phase. Not too difficult really.
From: Lopen | #024 Oh the dragon OHKOs Athos? "Whoops" on that
I don't even use luna on that guy anyway usually lords are good enough
Only if it has 20 strength. He has 40 HP and the dragon *usually* has 39 attack on HHM, but every now and then it procs that extra point of strength.
And I can't remember the last time I even bothered to use Lyn or Eliwood enough for them to do more than cherry tap the dragon <_< Not fond of the non-Hector lords in this game
From: TheNinJa7777 | #025 What is all this god damn Canas hate about
Who is hating Canas in this topic? Two people said he's an average unit (he is) and one of them also called him one of his favourite characters in the game.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
I don't hate Canas but Luna's pretty overrated. Panthera pretty much told the story on that spell. Not really the most useful thing most of the time. Hell I'd say Nosferatu is generally the dark magic that does something other strong spellcasters or physical units can't do. Even for the final boss, you just put your strongest unit with enough hp to take one dragon shot and trade hits with healing till it dies. I usually skip on Canas because I'm not a huge fan of his character (not bad, just not a big fan) and dark magic isn't really all it's cracked up to be.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
TheNinJa7777 posted... What is all this god damn Canas hate about
Nobody is hating, people are just saying he's average stat-wise, which is true. I love using Canas despite that (and being average isn't even a bad thing for the most part), I also love using Isadora but that doesn't change the fact that she's bad.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
Yeah Nosferatu is really the spiffy dark magic trick since midgame enemies weigh themselves down so much its weight doesn't become too big a problem, and as long as you make sure you're not going to get him doubled by anything Canas can tank huge chunks of enemies with it. It's even better in FE6 (less weight) and FE4 (yay infinite uses as long as you can keep Julia's money up!) too.
--
We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Lopen posted... I don't hate Canas but Luna's pretty overrated. Panthera pretty much told the story on that spell. Not really the most useful thing most of the time. Hell I'd say Nosferatu is generally the dark magic that does something other strong spellcasters or physical units can't do. Even for the final boss, you just put your strongest unit with enough hp to take one dragon shot and trade hits with healing till it dies. I usually skip on Canas because I'm not a huge fan of his character (not bad, just not a big fan) and dark magic isn't really all it's cracked up to be.
I don't think anyone claimed that Luna is an extremely necessary spell, but it's a decent and unique asset that only Canas can run until you get Athos. I've always been on the "Canas/Luna is overrated and I don't use it in the final chapter" boat, but I'm giving credit where it's due.
Nosferatu is pretty great on occasions, but I usually try to avoid weapons that weigh down the character/have a low number of uses, if I can.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
Sounds like luna hype to me. And that's the general attitude of most Canas hypers that I've come across.
It's unique, certainly, but it's not necessary in the least. Like I said and Panthera elaborated on, I find Nosferatu for extended tanking to be his more useful tool. But even that isn't necessary usually you can have a speed freak/tank do the same thing with minimal risk-- Nosferatu's a bit more versatile though.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
Lopen posted... "Because Luna" "Because Dark Magic"
Sounds like luna hype to me. And that's the general attitude of most Canas hypers that I've come across.
It's unique, certainly, but it's not necessary in the least. Like I said and Panthera elaborated on, I find Nosferatu for extended tanking to be his more useful tool. But even that isn't necessary usually you can have a speed freak/tank do the same thing with minimal risk-- Nosferatu's a bit more versatile though.
I don't know, Flux + occasional Luna is what I usually do. I wouldn't say Nosferatu is more versatile than Luna, I usually don't see any reason to use it unless you're desperate for HP or something (I'd rather have actually competent units handle stuff than throw Canas there with a heavy and expensive tome), Luna comes in handy once every five chapters or so.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
I meant Nosferatu is more versatile for extended tanking in that you can be less creative with the choke/units you have him fight and still have it work.
If you're just using him for Flux most of the time any spellcaster can do that, some with better stat growths, and they'll all get healing and slightly more versatile tomes statwise eventually which will make up for lack of other tricks like Luna and Nosferatu-- just a matter of preference there mostly.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
I use Canas as my boss Sage/Valkyrie/ killer, since he usually fares better with his RES than physical units do. Plus, dat crit chance has usually paid off quite well.
The strong point of Nosferatu is that you don't have to deal with accuracy much - Canas can generally hit enemies with it just fine (and he's somewhat bulky so he might not always get 2HKO'd, which is a nice buffer), and he doesn't need to dodge since he just heals himself while doing heavy chip/death to enemies. Do a big chunk of chip damage to four enemies and mop them up on the next player phase with no risk of death VS Kill the same four enemies, but you need to dodge three of the four attacks at 25% true hit to survive? The former is definitely better
--
We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Lopen posted... If you're just using him for Flux most of the time any spellcaster can do that, some with better stat growths, and they'll all get healing and slightly more versatile tomes statwise eventually which will make up for lack of other tricks like Luna and Nosferatu-- just a matter of preference there mostly.
True, and I like other magic users better in fact (Priscilla, Lucius, Pent), but if I'm running Canas I try to stay as cheap and lightweight as possible and only use the heavy stuff when it can really make a difference, and Luna is more likely to make a difference than Nosferatu IMO.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
Panthera posted... Do a big chunk of chip damage to four enemies and mop them up on the next player phase with no risk of death VS Kill the same four enemies, but you need to dodge three of the four attacks at 25% true hit to survive? The former is definitely better
Neither is particularly desirable. I'm sending melee units who can do the former or kill and tank/dodge better than Canas holding a heavy and expensive tome.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
Basically you can math it out where Canas literally can't die in a lot of situations, and against multiple types of units, if he's using Nosferatu. His only real risk is against very speedy units or light magic users-- either cause they can double him or because Nosferatu can possibly miss.
It's tough to do that with other units without the help of terrain and even then they won't likely be holding their ground against physical, magical, and (reasonably) speedy/accurate enemies all at once. And they won't be attacking all the enemies back they survive against unless it's a speedy (good luck getting a tanky one) magic user (which is why Serra is the strongest and mightiest unit of all the times). That's what I mean by versatility.
I mean I still don't think it's that necessary I'm just saying why I find it more useful than Luna when I actually use him.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
Few units actually have the durability to be taking on a lot of enemies without relying on shaky dodging. In some cases it's not so bad (Pent vs non-Luna unpromoted magic users, Pegasus Knights vs most unpromoted magic users, Hawkeye against pretty much any mook) but against the harder hitting enemies it's an issue
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
Basically you can math it out where Canas literally can't die in a lot of situations, and against multiple types of units, if he's using Nosferatu. His only real risk is against very speedy units or light magic users-- either cause they can double him or because Nosferatu can possibly miss.
It's tough to do that with other units without the help of terrain and even then they won't likely be holding their ground against physical, magical, and (reasonably) speedy/accurate enemies all at once. And they won't be attacking all the enemies back they survive against unless it's a speedy (good luck getting a tanky one) magic user (which is why Serra is the strongest and mightiest unit of all the times). That's what I mean by versatility.
I mean I still don't think it's that necessary I'm just saying why I find it more useful than Luna when I actually use him.
So, the scenario is being surrounded by lots of enemies and have Canas "clean the house" with Nosferatu. I honestly prefer to use terrain/support advantages and keep the party together, placing them on the map to minimize the risks. I haven't played FE7 in a while, but I remember that you don't get lots of money unless you arena abuse, and you can't always go to a shop like in FE9/10, that's why I try to avoid using more than basic stuff if I can.
Few units actually have the durability to be taking on a lot of enemies without relying on shaky dodging. In some cases it's not so bad (Pent vs non-Luna unpromoted magic users, Pegasus Knights vs most unpromoted magic users, Hawkeye against pretty much any mook) but against the harder hitting enemies it's an issue
Depends on what lots of enemies you are facing. Still I don't like relying on single units alone, but Oswin takes on melee units easily for example.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
I agree. I'm just saying Canas can do this when you don't have terrain/support to spare in a lot of situations. That's why he's a bit more versatile. Certainly not necessary or even more powerful most of the time, but versatile.
--
I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
From: SuorGenoveffa | #042 Depends on what lots of enemies you are facing. Still I don't like relying on single units alone, but Oswin takes on melee units easily for example.
Oswin has terrible mobility and pretty mediocre offense, you're not actually going to have him at a usable level after the first third of the game or so unless you're moving at a slow enough pace that unit quality is completely irrelevant to discuss since you just grind down everything and eventually your reinforcement kills will add up enough extra XP that you can blindly auto-win most maps. It's really only Hawkeye that has the right mix of durability and offense to realistically tank his way through a wide variety of situations (and he likes to use weird terrain, which can make clean up duty a bit hard)
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
Panthera posted... From: SuorGenoveffa | #042 Depends on what lots of enemies you are facing. Still I don't like relying on single units alone, but Oswin takes on melee units easily for example. Oswin has terrible mobility and pretty mediocre offense, you're not actually going to have him at a usable level after the first third of the game or so unless you're moving at a slow enough pace that unit quality is completely irrelevant to discuss since you just grind down everything and eventually your reinforcement kills will add up enough extra XP that you can blindly auto-win most maps. It's really only Hawkeye that has the right mix of durability and offense to realistically tank his way through a wide variety of situations (and he likes to use weird terrain, which can make clean up duty a bit hard)
He usually chips enough damage away that the other units can finish them off.
That said, I usually use Oswin as a "back door" so mobility and experience is not usually a problem. I don't remember many situations in which I needed to have an extreme single tank, I don't know what pace you're playing the game on, I'm simply not taking too many risks.
-- SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!
Luna is definitely Canas' coolest trick. Nosferatu lets him tank physical enemies, sure, but only as long as you watch enemy AS carefully and get somewhat lucky with accuracy. Luna lets Canas supplement his pre-existing ability to tank mages with an ability to actually hurt them; your other mages struggle to threaten things like HHM Valks or magic-using bosses, while Canas is boasting decent damage, good accuracy, and a nontrivial crit rate. Which reminds me, Luna has the highest crit rate of any tome until you obtain Luce in the final chapter.
Eclipse is also worthy of a gimmickry mention, but I'm not sure that anyone actually respects it. It's definitely wacky though.
And yeah, both hard modes give enemies bonus levels
This is true, but it's worth noting that only HHM gives -all- enemies bonus levels. In EHM, unpromoted enemies get nothing, only promoted enemies are boosted.
Oswin has terrible mobility and pretty mediocre offense, you're not actually going to have him at a usable level after the first third of the game or so
I'm usually thinking about promoting Oswin by Kinship's Bond, because by then he's pushing level 19 or so. And I play for ranks - we're not talking "Marcus blitzes everything" strategies (exception, Whereabouts Unknown, that blasted thief) but I sure as heck don't just sit tight and let the enemies shuffle into my waiting pikes.
Incidentally, promoted Oswin's offense is pretty much flat-out superior to Hawkeye's, barring the Berserker crit boost. (And I'd argue that Oswin's ability to equip lances is more significant.)
-- I don't like this duchy. Now, it's an adventurer.
Holy crap, this thread has a bunch more posts in it!
suuuup leon, suuuuup lopen, it's the L brigade woooooo
not to be confused with the L-Block brigade, screw that thing
Man, all this discussion of FE7 characters after I've just finished playing Path of Radiance and am now playing Radiant Dawn makes me want like...some kind of...Fire Emblem Greatest Hits game where you get to use any team of units from any FE game or something.
--
EB: well you see, the explanation is perfectly simple and scientific. EB: it was because shut up. shut up is why.