Board 8 > Is there a community with more painful arguments than Pokemon?

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Dark Young Link
12/07/11 7:15:00 PM
#1:


Reading discussions about whenever or not Double Team should be banned results in 99.9% chance of losing IQ points, and there are a lot more arguments that do the same.

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SlymDayspring
12/07/11 7:16:00 PM
#2:


brawl, maybe?

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KamikazePotato
12/07/11 7:16:00 PM
#3:


Sonic

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LordoftheMorons
12/07/11 7:17:00 PM
#4:


Congress

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bug_crook
12/07/11 7:19:00 PM
#5:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Congress

i laughed xD

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TheCodeisBosco
12/07/11 7:19:00 PM
#6:


I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone have a debate about Double Team. >_>

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paperwarior
12/07/11 7:22:00 PM
#7:


Wikipedia.

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Dark Young Link
12/07/11 7:24:00 PM
#8:


TheCodeisBosco posted...
I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone have a debate about Double Team. >_>

Lucky you.

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jbomb1234
12/07/11 7:24:00 PM
#9:


Bleach does

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:25:00 PM
#10:


From: LordoftheMorons | #004
Congress


WHOA

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:26:00 PM
#11:


What's your stance on Double Team, by the way?

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Dark Young Link
12/07/11 7:27:00 PM
#12:


My stance is that it should be banned.

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:27:00 PM
#13:


From: Dark Young Link | #012
My stance is that it should be banned.


Pfft, okay.

You probably support banning Blaziken too.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:28:00 PM
#14:


The competitive community really pisses me off quite a bit.

Though the people who are anti-it are also pretty bad. I've seen Smogon criticised for such ridiculous things it's unreal. I mean some of their rules are irritating and bizarre but "Blaziken was banned because they are in love with Infernape"? That's what you're picking as a stick to beat them with?

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paperwarior
12/07/11 7:30:00 PM
#15:


My stance is that it should be banned.

YOU MONSTER

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Dark Young Link
12/07/11 7:30:00 PM
#16:


Biolizard28 posted...
From: Dark Young Link | #012
My stance is that it should be banned.
Pfft, okay.

You probably support banning Blaziken too.


No.

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:30:00 PM
#17:


From: XIII_rocks | #014
The competitive community really pisses me off quite a bit.

Though the people who are anti-it are also pretty bad. I've seen Smogon criticised for such ridiculous things it's unreal. I mean some of their rules are irritating and bizarre but "Blaziken was banned because they are in love with Infernape"? That's what you're picking as a stick to beat them with?


It was their start of darkness, as far as I'm concerned.

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special_sauce
12/07/11 7:31:00 PM
#18:


Honestly, competitive Pokemon should just do away with tiering, move banning, etc.
Everyone can use the same things, quit whining that they're unfair

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WazzupGenius00
12/07/11 7:32:00 PM
#19:


I think Double Team used to need to be banned, but there are enough ways to work around it now that it could be fair game.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:33:00 PM
#20:


From: special_sauce | #018
Honestly, competitive Pokemon should just do away with tiering, move banning, etc.
Everyone can use the same things, quit whining that they're unfair


No.

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WazzupGenius00
12/07/11 7:34:00 PM
#21:


From: special_sauce | #018
Honestly, competitive Pokemon should just do away with tiering, move banning, etc.
Everyone can use the same things, quit whining that they're unfair


the issue isn't that they say certain things are "unfair," it's that they say certain things are so good that when they are allowed, the whole game starts to revolve around that specific thing (for example if Parasect turned out to be ridiculously good everyone would have one on his team, then everyone would also have a specific Parasect counter on their team. Now a third of almost every team is the exact same thing).

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:34:00 PM
#22:


I mean these people literally spend their lives analysing these things. It's irritating, THEY'RE irritating, but give them credit. You can't just "allow everything".

First off the tiering allows for loads of Pokemon to be used which is sweet. I like sweeping teams in NU with Linoone, I love being able to use Alakazam in UU because Alakazam is a f***ing boss. Stuff like that. Tiering is an awesome idea.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:35:00 PM
#23:


From: WazzupGenius00 | #021
the issue isn't that they say certain things are "unfair," it's that they say certain things are so good that when they are allowed, the whole game starts to revolve around that specific thing (for example if Parasect turned out to be ridiculously good everyone would have one on his team, then everyone would also have a specific Parasect counter on their team. Now a third of almost every team is the exact same thing).


Which is the reason Garchomp was banned. It's centralization of a relatively varied metagame.

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:36:00 PM
#24:


From: XIII_rocks | #023
relatively varied metagame.


Wasn't 90% of every team Heatran/Scizor in the twilight of 4th gen?

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:39:00 PM
#25:


Not really. They were probably the most popular 2. Them and Machamp leads.

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neoneaper
12/07/11 7:40:00 PM
#26:


Fire Emblem

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 7:40:00 PM
#27:


special_sauce posted...
Honestly, competitive Pokemon should just do away with tiering, move banning, etc.
Everyone can use the same things, quit whining that they're unfair


Arceus vs. Arceus OLOLOLOL!

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:41:00 PM
#28:


Only point I was trying to make, by the way, is that they selectively ban elements of luck.

Togekiss and Jirachi are allowed to Paraflinch, but god forbid I let my Cacturne have double team.

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WarThaNemesis2
12/07/11 7:42:00 PM
#29:


That's because you can counter paralysis and flinching moves. You can't outright counter Double Team.

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 7:46:00 PM
#30:


WarThaNemesis2 posted...
That's because you can counter paralysis and flinching moves. You can't outright counter Double Team.

Does Haze work on Double Team? I know you could Whirlwind/Roar it away. Regardless, Double Team is one of the most infuriating luck based things. I was replaying FR and literally had to let Lt. Surge's Raichu poison itself to death because of Nidoking's poison point and inability to hit in in 15 moves.

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WarThaNemesis2
12/07/11 7:47:00 PM
#31:


Whirlwind/Roar still have to hit, same with Haze I think.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:49:00 PM
#32:


Paraflinching should be banned, but I think they hesitate to ban specific movesets on specific Pokemon. There's no way Jirachi and Togekiss should be banned to ubers, for instance, even with Paraflinch. They're too easily counterable.

Though I did once beat an entire team of 6 by using a Scarf Jirachi that just spammed Iron Head. True story.

From: MarvelousGerbil | #027
special_sauce posted...
Honestly, competitive Pokemon should just do away with tiering, move banning, etc.
Everyone can use the same things, quit whining that they're unfair


Arceus vs. Arceus OLOLOLOL!


Actually Arceus has become very counterable in ubers. There was a brief time where he centralized the uber metagame, but people do different things with him now. Giratina beats it, Groudon beats it, Ghost Arceus beats it, Cresselia beats it, and Garchomp can take an SD'd hit. Extreme Killer Arceus is the most common version and it is counterable by a fair few legit Pokemon.

If your ubers team can be 6-0d by Extreme Killer Arceus you have a bad team.

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 7:50:00 PM
#33:


Also, if you want to blame people for the odd tiering, blame Nintendo. It's their fault that they "don't want a competitive scene" in a game that is designed for competition. Therefore you get stuff that's OP that wasn't intended to be and vice versa. I mean sure, we all know Mewtwo and Arceus are meant to be stronger than everything else, but do you really think Nintendo ever thought that Wynaut would be Uber in Gen 4?

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 7:52:00 PM
#34:


WarThaNemesis2 posted...
Whirlwind/Roar still have to hit, same with Haze I think.

Ah, TBQH I didn't even think about that. It's been a while since I used those moves in an actual game and Evasion isn't allowed in Shoddy Battle.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:52:00 PM
#35:


I think Nintendo do a decent enough job actually. I mean when you think about how many people there are who analyze the games to death, it's no surprise people will pick holes in things and find exploits. Very few of the non-ubers are indisputably broken.

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:53:00 PM
#36:


Haze doesn't have to hit.

From: WarThaNemesis2 | #029
That's because you can counter paralysis and flinching moves.


How?

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 7:55:00 PM
#37:


ground-type Pokemon first and foremost
natural cure (hi Starmie)
clever switching (I just switched to a Conkeldurr with Guts/I just switched to Electivire/I just switched to Scarf Flygon, oh hai)

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Biolizard28
12/07/11 7:58:00 PM
#38:


ground-type Pokemon first and foremost

Jirachi runs body slam for a reason.

natural cure (hi Starmie)

Requires a switch to activate, enjoy your next Pokemon getting paralyzed.

clever switching (I just switched to a Conkeldurr with Guts/I just switched to Electivire/I just switched to Scarf Flygon, oh hai)

Conkeldurr doesn't appreciate paralysis, Electivire assumes they're running thunder wave, as does Flygon.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 8:01:00 PM
#39:


Wait, what? lmao

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sonicboom510
12/07/11 8:01:00 PM
#40:


Smash Bros players arguing why it's a competitive game.

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SuorGenoveffa
12/07/11 8:03:00 PM
#41:


Melee vs Brawl debates.

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 8:05:00 PM
#42:


Biolizard28 posted...
Haze doesn't have to hit.

From: WarThaNemesis2 | #029
That's because you can counter paralysis and flinching moves.
How?


Acupuncture and Extremespeed!

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Shoenin_Kakashi
12/07/11 8:05:00 PM
#43:


Pfft, Smogon was doing stupid bans before Blaziken.

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charmander6000
12/07/11 8:13:00 PM
#44:


Smogon has a premade idea of what the metagame should look like and bans things so they can reach that picture. BW was suppose to start off with everyone in standard, but they banned everyone with over 600 BST from the start.

Well it was better than what they did at the beginning of DP.

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greengravy294
12/07/11 8:13:00 PM
#45:


lol pokemon...

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FashnQueenEtna
12/07/11 8:15:00 PM
#46:


A lot of pokemon got pulled off of ubers due to the power creep, of course, pokemon also fail to meet OU due to the same mentality.

Also Blaziken is pretty lethal. I can easily see justification for the ban.

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 8:15:00 PM
#47:


XIII_rocks posted...
I think Nintendo do a decent enough job actually. I mean when you think about how many people there are who analyze the games to death, it's no surprise people will pick holes in things and find exploits. Very few of the non-ubers are indisputably broken.

I agree to a certain degree, but honestly if they were doing it right, no Legendaries would be in UU/NU. I can think of worse things, but this was the first thing that stuck out to me when I started looking at tiers.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 8:16:00 PM
#48:


...Except Regigigas and Slaking.

And honstly the cover legendaries are pretty much never going to be acceptable. Don't see what the problem is there. Testing them for standard is just a waste of everyone's time.

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MarvelousGerbil
12/07/11 8:19:00 PM
#49:


XIII_rocks posted...
...Except Regigigas and Slaking.

And honstly the cover legendaries are pretty much never going to be acceptable. Don't see what the problem is there. Testing them for standard is just a waste of everyone's time.


Slaking isn't legendary, and Regigigas wasn't surprising, but idiotic design on Nintendo's part all the same. It's only possible use would be really elaborate use of Skill Swap, which is way too complicated to pay off.

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XIII_rocks
12/07/11 8:20:00 PM
#50:


From: MarvelousGerbil | #047
I agree to a certain degree, but honestly if they were doing it right, no Legendaries would be in UU/NU. I can think of worse things, but this was the first thing that stuck out to me when I started looking at tiers.


Yeah legendaries being UU/NU is weird, but think about it: legendaries are usually designed to fit a certain thematic theme, such as the fire/ice/thunder birds. That is more of a concern for Gamefreak; creating a cool mythology that will get people more involved with the world and, thus, buy more games. The competitive community is ultimately a tiny fraction of Pokemon's sales.

So when you have something like Articuno that is utter failure in the metagame, they really do not give a crap about that. I actually think Pokemon gets lucky, given that they, to some extent, embrace the metagame. It's not like Brawl which I'm pretty sure (could be wrong) drew a line in the sand over it being a "competitive" series.

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