Board 8 > Metal Gear Solid 3 beated

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've argued enough with you on MGS3's story, but you're pretty unnecessarily harsh toward the story and its characters because it's simple and doesn't make an effort to be pretentious like MGS2 and 4 do.

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I think you missed the part where I didn't like 4's story and loved 1's story a lot. 3 just isn't a well-done story of its kind.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

It's a pretty well done story.

But saying it has no emotion outside of the ending is pretty silly regardless.

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And I didn't feel any of it. Pretty much the entire game outside of the final boss fight onwards just felt...sterile to me.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Sounds more like a personal problem than an issue with the story being emotionless!

The end of the game is emotional because the game has built up to it with emotion.

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Not really. If the game failed to make me feel emotional, someone who pays close attention to the story and characters in every game, then it's the game's fault. I just didn't buy into anything that was going on.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

So many people hating on 2. It's actually the best told story in the series, tied with MGS3. The way it set up the whole "mythology" of the series is amazing. Don't be hating because you didn't play as Snake. The story is actually very simple and easy to follow.

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If the game made me feel emotional, someone who pays close attention to the story and characters in every game, then it sounds like a personal difference.

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Considering 3 had the best supporting Codec cast of any of the games, if you didn't feel *something* along the way, that does sound like a personal problem

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Man how can anyone not feel emotion at the end of 3? It's like playing FFX and hating Tidus so the story sucked.

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Well, if you don't like the characters, that's fine. It's hard to make emotional connections to characters you don't like.

But I loved MGS3's cast, so it worked for me.

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MGS3's Codec cast wasn't bad, but they didn't have any bearing on what was going on. in MGS1, most of your codec team as a deep in the situation as Snake was. Same with MGS2. In MGS3, they're just a quirky cast of characters that don't affect the current situation throughout the entire game. The game didn't give me much reason to care about them outside of "I like guns" and "I like movies".

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Pretty sure Zero and Para-Medic are depending heavily on Naked Snake's success for their own well being, so I don't understand them not being in deep with what's going on.

Not sure how they have any more lack of effect on the game than Mei Ling or Nastasha do, for example.

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There's a difference between 'my future career success depends on you succeeding' and 'I'm being watched by the government' or 'I'm actually in the same area as the main character and affecting things'. And I said 'most', not all.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

From: KamikazePotato | #064
'I'm actually in the same area as the main character and affecting things'

So basically Snake and Stillman then.

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in MGS1, most of your codec team as a deep in the situation as Snake was. Same with MGS2

I'll give you MGS1 (although both Mei Ling and Nastasha had no damn bearing on the plot at all). MGS2 had Pliskin (good), and then Fake Campbell, Stillman (who doesn't exist until his subplot with Fatman begins, and when it ends, he's a blank spot on your Codec list for the rest of the game), and frigging Rose, who is a big enough negative to single handedly kill any other goodwill the game might have handed out

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Pliskin, 'Campbell', Stillman, Rose, and the new Deep Throat all had a big impact on the game. Far more than anyone in the MGS3 Codec. I don't like some of them as much as some members of the MGS3 codec team, but I was still way more interested than what was going on with them than I was with Para-medic loving Godzilla or whatever.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

From: KamikazePotato | #067
Far more than anyone in the MGS3 Codec.

Eva says "Hi."

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Forgot Eva, but that's one character, and I hated her even more than Rose anyway.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

You're being pretty broad in your definition of "impact" on the game if you're including Rose in that group anyway, so I'm not really sure why you say Rose has an impact on the game and Zero doesn't.

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Despite being the CO, Zero never really did much or had much presence. Sometimes I forgot he existed. It was impossible to forget about Campbell in MGS1/2. Rose is the only doorway you get into Raiden's character for a while, and the end stuff vaults her straight over into the 'important' pile.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Actually, you know what was way better than MGS3?

MGS3 Online. Loved that thing to death.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I half assumed by characters having an impact on the game, you were zeroing in on "The character is in the same place as me and directly impacting things." And Rose doesn't do very much of that. I wouldn't even say the end stuff even vaults her over into that group because the game doesn't even seem to make that big of a deal out of all those late-game revelations with Rose.

And if we get to count Stillman for MGS2, we get to count The Boss for MGS3, too!

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The Boss wasn't a codec character for the vast majority of the game. Stillman lasted longer than she did, I'm pretty sure! Although The Boss in general was the best part about MGS3, anyway!

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

GranzonEx posted...
So many people hating on 2. It's actually the best told story in the series, tied with MGS3. The way it set up the whole "mythology" of the series is amazing. Don't be hating because you didn't play as Snake. The story is actually very simple and easy to follow.

No, that's fine. Playing as Raiden would've been perfectly fine.

Except Raiden was made to be worthless, they emphasized how worthless you were, and throughout the story, you got to watch as everyone else got to do awesome things while you were busy getting your balls fondled and doing naked cartwheels. Which isn't bad, but you're constantly saying to yourself "Why the f*** am I doing this crap if it barely matters?" Not only that, the main villain is even worthless, and they make a point of saying that! And the final fight? Worthless! They even admit it's worthless! Everything in the game that isn't Liquid, Snake, or Otacon was worthless! It was terrible storytelling, and they went out of their way to make you feel lame throughout it.

The reason people are so resentful of having to play as Raiden and not Snake was because Raiden barely did anything of consequence, while Snake got to do all the worthwhile stuff. I know it defeats the ever-so-grand point of the entire "deep" story by making Raiden be a hero who is worth a damn instead of a barely consequential assclown, but it would've made for a better game. Hell, at least give us switching between Raiden and Snake or something if you're going to force this sort of story.

It's like reading a book or watching a movie where all of the awesome stuff happens off screen, and all of the important story elements happened off screen, and you were forced to follow the glorified sidekick around as he does less important stuff. Who cares!? That's why people didn't want to be Raiden, because the game doesn't want you to be Raiden.

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I'm struggling to think of anything Snake did in the game that mattered more than what Raiden did.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

They both lasted less than two hours, I'm pretty sure of that.

But I put a lot more importance on peripheral stuff when I weigh in on how much I like characters anyway. I don't really care if they "feel important to the plot" or not. MGS3's cast abounds with bonus goodies. Getting to talk about silly fun stuff endeared me to MGS3's crew a lot more than getting nagged on by Rose.

The silly fun stuff was the best part of MGS1 and MGS2's Codec crews, too, and it's part of the reason I don't like MGS4 as much. Not very much silly fun stuff with the Codec!

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It's hard to say anyone did anything of consequence in MGS2 aside from the Patriots because they pretty much dictated everything that happened in that game from start to finish.

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Yeah, all the silly stuff with the Codec crew did not enamour me whatsoever. MGS1 struck a good balance with that sort of thing, but MGS3 went too far with it. I ended up just not talking to them for most of the game, where I was calling up everyone in the MGS1/2 crew all the time.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Well yeah, the main theme of the story is how easy it is to control you, ect. But Raiden beat all of Dead Cell, beat Solidus, disarmed the bombs, took down the Harrier, met with the President, ect. Snake was just sort of there as a mentor figure. Once you get past the tanker, he took a big backseat to Raiden in terms of story importance.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Jeff Zero posted...
Story: 3 > 4 > 1 > 2
Gameplay: 3 > 4 > 2 > 1

Yep, I'm one of those MGS4 enthusiasts. Still prefer 3 though. But it's close.

Jeff with the correct ranking as usual... This guy should be your role model, fellows.

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Pretty sure Raiden and Solidus weren't worthless. Raiden was the link to the Patriots and Solidus wanted to exploit that link to find them and free them all from Patriot control. You know although he failed in the end, it wasn't all for naught because that sets up the entire Patriot storyline. Hence the title Sons of Liberty, Solidus freed them from their blindness. He revealed the Patriots and that got everything rolling.

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From: LeonhartFour | #079
It's hard to say anyone did anything of consequence in MGS2 aside from the Patriots because they pretty much dictated everything that happened in that game from start to finish.

This is the whole problem I had with MGS2. The entire game, I felt like it was just a rehash of MGS1, with sub-MGS1 characters. Then at the end, you learn you were basically just doing the same god damn things, and nothing ANYBODY did mattered, including yourself. It's the biggest slap in the face any game has ever bestowed to me.

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I have the same sort of issues with MGS4 as well. It gives you a false impression that you're really making a difference on your own and then the game throws "LOL nope that was exactly what we wanted you to do" at you time and again.

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I'd say a lot of MGS2 was very important. Snake and Raiden meet up, they confirm the existence of the Patriots, guys like Raiden and Otacon go through some personal development, ect. I think the issue you're trying to vocalize is that in MGS2, the bad guys win. It's more like the first chapter of a story than a whole story.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I don't mind "The bad guys win."

The good guys win in MGS4, and I still don't like it.

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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."

I'm not defending MGS4's story, nor will I ever at this point.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I'm just saying that it's not the fact that the bad guys win that I take issue with when it comes to MGS2's story.

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From: KamikazePotato | #050
MGS3's story is entertaining, but it isn't good. B-movie silliness, poor characterization of everyone except The Boss, random jarring 'cool' scenes, bad pacing, a lack of emotion in everything but the ending. No one would care about the plot if it wasn't a Metal Gear game. You might as well extol the greatness of Devil May Cry 3's plot - they're about the same.

Eh. I disagree. It was definitely written kind of like an old movie, and there is some pretty poor characterization beyond maybe three characters, but really the story is meant to rest on The Boss' back, and it doesn't really suffer too much for it.

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MGS2's stories has issues too. Some bad writing here and there, pacing problems, ect. It might be my favorite game story, but it isn't perfect by any means. If your issue is that MGS2 makes you feel helpless at times, then I disagree. That's where the story really shine, and done significantly better than it was in MGS4.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

The Boss is easily the shining point of MGS3's story from start to finish, I'd say. You will never see me badmouthing The Boss!

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I wouldn't say the game giving you an illusion of control and free will and then ripping it away from you forcibly at the end is what makes MGS2's story shine.

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"I can set you free, mate."
"My freedom was forfeit long ago!"

But the only game where you were in control was 3 >_> Well you had the most control of any of the 4.

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The difference is that in MGS4, it's just done as a completely pointless and stupid plot twist that changes absolutely nothing except to make Ocelot into some sort of manipulator god. In MGS2, it's a key theme that fits much better into the storyline. Characters talk about and discuss the ramifications and effects of the Patriots long before the big reveal ever happens - which makes the big reveal that much better.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I dunno. I shouldn't ever get to a point in the game where I begin to feel like, "Why did I even bother?"

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You should bother because the gameplay is about 100 times better than the first game.

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There were plenty of reasons to bother. You did, in fact, stop Solidus, and even if his intentions were noble the way he was going to carry out his plan definitely made him a villain. You realizing you were a pawn doesn't change that, it just sets the stage for you to become a player in the next game.

It's not MGS2's fault MGS4 totally failed to capitalize on that!

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I like playing the game, but I get to the end of the game and all I've done is do what the Patriots wanted me to do, and it's just "Blech."

I think I just hate the fact that it's the Patriots, a faceless seemingly all-powerful, all-present entity a la Big Brother. MGS1 did the whole "Lead you along without you realizing it" thing a lot better than the rest of the series did.

From: KamikazePotato | #098
You realizing you were a pawn doesn't change that, it just sets the stage for you to become a player in the next game.

MGS2 set the stage but then nobody showed up for the play!

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The Patriots are awesome. At least they were before MGS4 dumbed them down. Big Brother plots are great.

MGS2 set the stage but then nobody showed up for the play!

I am not going to fault MGS2 for Kojima's inability to keep his notes together.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.