PropheticDeuce posted... From: Rad Link 5 | #047 The point is that people are voting for the games, not the character.
Link is not the undisputed greatest character of all time. He is literally a blank state, and the voters use him as a stand in for the games themselves. That's not a bad theory, but who's to say people aren't voting for the games because they have Link in them? Are you saying that OoT is the undisputed best game of all time despite Link? Was Majora's Mask truly the best game in the last contest?
Just about every single person who has ever played a Zelda game. Hell, way too many people think his name is Zelda to even consider that they are playing for his "character."
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift BT with the victory!
ChichiriMuyo posted... Nope. No one votes how they are supposed to at all. That doesn't mean nominations should be thrown out because human nature contradicts the way one single, solitary soul believes every one else should act.
Well, right. That's exactly what I'm saying. He was arguing that Mario/Sonic was fair to be excluded since nobody would vote based on the in-game rivalry.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: PropheticDeuce | #049 That's not a bad theory, but who's to say people aren't voting for the games because they have Link in them? Are you saying that OoT is the undisputed best game of all time despite Link? Was Majora's Mask truly the best game in the last contest?
I seriously can't think of a way to respond to this that doesn't come across as mean to you, so I'm instead going to state that people are not voting for the games because they have Link in them, and the reasons why should be really obvious.
-- [NO BARKLEY, NO PEACE] Ace Detective in Sir Charles's Police http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkOj5DAJu2A
StealThisSheen posted... ChichiriMuyo posted... Nope. No one votes how they are supposed to at all. That doesn't mean nominations should be thrown out because human nature contradicts the way one single, solitary soul believes every one else should act.
Well, right. That's exactly what I'm saying. He was arguing that Mario/Sonic was fair to be excluded since nobody would vote based on the in-game rivalry.
And in past contests there has been a disclaimer to point out that fact outright. It's always been a "popularity contest," not a "follow this obscure definition that not everyone will agree with" contest. He's throwing out the popularity and enforcing the definition when the definition is arbitrarily his own... but you already get that and the response I made was for those who don't and maybe could.
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift BT with the victory!
Rad Link 5 posted... From: PropheticDeuce | #049 That's not a bad theory, but who's to say people aren't voting for the games because they have Link in them? Are you saying that OoT is the undisputed best game of all time despite Link? Was Majora's Mask truly the best game in the last contest? I seriously can't think of a way to respond to this that doesn't come across as mean to you, so I'm instead going to state that people are not voting for the games because they have Link in them, and the reasons why should be really obvious.
I would respond as such: LOL. Yes, if that were remotely true. No, for obvious reasons you aren't considering. But maybe that's just me. You know, because I realize it's the name (and gameplay of) "Legend of Zelda" that sells and not the character Link. And that these contests aren't based of the best, but the most popular in head-to-head match-ups that represent a small fraction of possible opinions.
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift BT with the victory!
From: ChichiriMuyo | #057 I would respond as such: LOL. Yes, if that were remotely true. No, for obvious reasons you aren't considering. But maybe that's just me. You know, because I realize it's the name (and gameplay of) "Legend of Zelda" that sells and not the character Link. And that these contests aren't based of the best, but the most popular in head-to-head match-ups that represent a small fraction of possible opinions.
I disagree. If you replace Link with another, distinct character (such as Squall or Travis Touchdown), I don't think the game would be as good, and the character would not be more popular. The "Link character," as a silent, sword-wielding protagonist, is woven into the story and lore of the series. The two are synonymous.
From: ChichiriMuyo | #056 And in past contests there has been a disclaimer to point out that fact outright. It's always been a "popularity contest," not a "follow this obscure definition that not everyone will agree with" contest. He's throwing out the popularity and enforcing the definition when the definition is arbitrarily his own... but you already get that and the response I made was for those who don't and maybe could.
It's a popularity contest based on the games. In this instance, it's the rivalries from the games. Mario/Sonic isn't from a game, and should be disallowed.
From: PropheticDeuce | #058 I disagree. If you replace Link with another, distinct character (such as Squall or Travis Touchdown), I don't think the game would be as good, and the character would not be more popular. The "Link character," as a silent, sword-wielding protagonist, is woven into the story and lore of the series. The two are synonymous.
So then you agree people are voting for the games, and that if the protagonist of the games was a distinct character, they'd be voting for the character rather than the games (and the character wouldn't do as well as Link does as a result). Great. Glad you see the truth of the matter.
-- [NO BARKLEY, NO PEACE] Ace Detective in Sir Charles's Police http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkOj5DAJu2A
---DIDNT READ TOPIC: DONT REALLY WANT TO BE TROLLED, JUST MY THOUGHTS i fully support bacon's rules for the contest. all i friggen see is people trying to get gimmick rivalries/objects/loosely connected rivalries into the contest because they think its edgy, when really they wouldn't do good in the contest anyway. like, regardless, REGARDLESS, of how you try and make the contest more fun through nominations, its gonna be link/ganondorf and mario/bowser and all the protagonist/arch-villain rivalries you can think of in mainstream gaming in the finals.
L block was cute. so was companion cube and the other random stuff that was in the previous contests, but the rules make perfect sense, and quite frankly the rivalries edge to this contest is an improvement i'd say over all the twice daily king of the mountain 1v1v1v1 top 3 top 2 move on type matches and male/female type ideas
imo the best noms are the rivalries where the pro and antagonists aren't exclusively hero and villain. i like it when the rivals typically work towards the same goal, just through different means. like megaman and protoman, or sonic and knuckles, classic red trainer blue trainer rivalries. other good ones come from fighting games, either the friendly rivalries like ken and ryu from street fighter, or the purely counter balanced yin and yang rivalries like scorpion and sub-zero. cloud/sephiroth vs link/ganondorf final sounds utterly boring, and if arch-villain rivalries dominate this contest you might as well just scratch out the villain and label each group by just the heros name because all people ill vote for anyway.
ChumpMoney posted... ---DIDNT READ TOPIC: DONT REALLY WANT TO BE TROLLED, JUST MY THOUGHTS i fully support bacon's rules for the contest. all i friggen see is people trying to get gimmick rivalries/objects/loosely connected rivalries into the contest because they think its edgy, when really they wouldn't do good in the contest anyway. like, regardless, REGARDLESS, of how you try and make the contest more fun through nominations, its gonna be link/ganondorf and mario/bowser and all the protagonist/arch-villain rivalries you can think of in mainstream gaming in the finals.
L block was cute. so was companion cube and the other random stuff that was in the previous contests, but the rules make perfect sense, and quite frankly the rivalries edge to this contest is an improvement i'd say over all the twice daily king of the mountain 1v1v1v1 top 3 top 2 move on type matches and male/female type ideas
imo the best noms are the rivalries where the pro and antagonists aren't exclusively hero and villain. i like it when the rivals typically work towards the same goal, just through different means. like megaman and protoman, or sonic and knuckles, classic red trainer blue trainer rivalries. other good ones come from fighting games, either the friendly rivalries like ken and ryu from street fighter, or the purely counter balanced yin and yang rivalries like scorpion and sub-zero. cloud/sephiroth vs link/ganondorf final sounds utterly boring, and if arch-villain rivalries dominate this contest you might as well just scratch out the villain and label each group by just the heros name because all people ill vote for anyway.
I kind of get why he would exclude Barkley/Jordan if he's not fussed about having perceived "joke" noms in the tournament.
This does not explain Mario vs. Sonic.
-- 2011 WWYD Champion I do things for money and games.
PropheticDeuce posted... It's a popularity contest based on the games. In this instance, it's the rivalries from the games. Mario/Sonic isn't from a game, and should be disallowed.
Nope. They were popularity contests based on the characters themselves, not the games. But people voted because of the games, anyway. It is absolutely no different, so stop acting like it is. By your logic, Link should have never won because his popularity came from the games, not the character.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
In the character contest people could vote for anyone for any reason, including strength or depth of the personality, strength or historical significance of the games the character is in, appeal of the artwork, cuteness, or even meta reasons like anti-voting or voting against Link because Link always wins. Hence why all kinds of characters are eligible, from RPG characters to simpler icons to "joke vote non-characters."
And you can't change why people vote the way they do, even if you had a rule that was like VOTE FOR THE BEST PERSONALITY. Likewise, the point of this contest may be to single out the best rivalry but you can't control if people will vote for a pair because they think the rivalry is the most intense, as opposed to BOTH OF THESE CHARACTERS ARE COOL GETS MAH VOTE. So why bother to sculpt the nominations as such by getting rid of "joke" noms like Barkley -- Jordan or legit, but unusual, ones like Mario -- Sonic when you can't influence how people vote anyways.
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"Getting lucky 100% of the time... it's called PRO SKILL." -BlAcK TuRtLe
Technically, Link/Ganon is NOT legitimate because Link is not an individual character, but a group. Who all happen to share the same name and general appearance.
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There never was a post. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and refracted the light from Venus.
Altimadark posted... Technically, Link/Ganon is NOT legitimate because Link is not an individual character, but a group. Who all happen to share the same name and general appearance.
clearly different mario's thorughout the games too bro. i mean just look at him
ChumpMoney posted... clearly different mario's thorughout the games too bro. i mean just look at him
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The Zelda games clearly establish that the Link in each game is NOT the Link in the previous game, with a few exceptions where Link does not fight Ganon, anyway. The same cannot be said for the Mario games, where no attempt is made to suggest that we're dealing with a new Mario each time.
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There never was a post. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and refracted the light from Venus.
From: Altimadark | #066 Technically, Link/Ganon is NOT legitimate because Link is not an individual character, but a group. Who all happen to share the same name and general appearance.
As I considered this post, I realized Allen's response would probably be, in its simplest form, "I don't care, Link is popular."
-- [NO BARKLEY, NO PEACE] Ace Detective in Sir Charles's Police http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkOj5DAJu2A
Rad Link 5 posted... So then you agree people are voting for the games, and that if the protagonist of the games was a distinct character, they'd be voting for the character rather than the games (and the character wouldn't do as well as Link does as a result). Great. Glad you see the truth of the matter.
StealThisSheen posted... Nope. They were popularity contests based on the characters themselves, not the games. But people voted because of the games, anyway. It is absolutely no different, so stop acting like it is. By your logic, Link should have never won because his popularity came from the games, not the character.
That's not what I was saying, but I'll try to clarify. You can't vote for a character without voting, in part, for the game as well, since the situation presented shapes the character. This is especially true for Link, since, as a silent protagonist, his actions have to speak for him. If Link were the main character of Animal Crossing instead of Legend of Zelda, he would be a different character and not as popular. My point was that, even though the game is a large part of who Link is, other characters would not be as popular as him in the exact same role. So even though the game makes him who he is, there is still more to him than the gameplay mechanics.
As for voting for Link, it's as you said, you can't control how people vote. It can be because he wears green, he's an elf, he uses a sword, it's fun to play as him, he's the top/bottom/nth option in the poll, or flip a coin. All you can do is hope people vote based on guidelines established by the contest. If you want the "best video game character," it makes sense to exclude Superman, regardless of how unique his video game persona is, on the basis that he is a comic book character, not a video game character. In the case of this contest, based on in-game rivalries, I agree Mario/Sonic should be excluded, as it is just the "personification" of Nintendo/Sega, and has nothing to do with any video game the characters are in together. Any "rivalry" present in MaSatOG is conjectured, and arguing that fact is no more than an attempt to backdoor the pairing into the contest.
From: 7Deuce86 | #072 You can't vote for a character without voting, in part, for the game as well, since the situation presented shapes the character.
Let me just stop you here. Link doesn't have a character to be shaped. He says nothing, has minimal reaction to anything, he's literally your avatar. Link is the player's avatar.
He's nothing more than the "personification" of the player. Therefore, by your logic, he has no place in a character contest. Because if a rivalry is ineligible for a rivalry contest because the characters involved are stand-ins for their companies, then a character should be ineligible for a character contest because the character is just a stand-in for the player.
And before you complain that that doesn't make sense, you have to understand that I'm doing my best to apply your crazy troll logic to reality. It's not an easy task!
-- [NO BARKLEY, NO PEACE] Ace Detective in Sir Charles's Police http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkOj5DAJu2A
Rad Link 5 posted... From: 7Deuce86 | #044 The chance that his popularity stems from beyond the games he is in is nominal. The point is that people are voting for the games, not the character.
Link is not the undisputed greatest character of all time. He is literally a blank state, and the voters use him as a stand in for the games themselves.
Play some Wind Waker. Link is pretty awesome there, and has actual personality.
7Deuce86 posted... In the case of this contest, based on in-game rivalries, I agree Mario/Sonic should be excluded, as it is just the "personification" of Nintendo/Sega, and has nothing to do with any video game the characters are in together. Any "rivalry" present in MaSatOG is conjectured, and arguing that fact is no more than an attempt to backdoor the pairing into the contest.
I disagree. MaSatOG is 100% legit for allowing Mario/Sonic. It may be considered the personification of Nintendo/Sega, but is that any worse than L Block getting in because "It's funny"? How about when people vote for someone because they might be another character?
Or do we have a clear and defined "bar" as to what is a "real" rivalry?
Earthworm Jim/Queen Slug-For-A-Butt=On the predetermined nomination list.
...I almost want to rally for Queen Slug as evidently that's a totally serious and valid campaign that wouldn't take the slot of a more deserving character.
Speaking of Earthworm Jim. His rival is totally Psycrow, not the queen.
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"I am SO gonna kick your ass!" - "No, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna kick YOUR ass!" Nominate Yuri Lowell / Flynn Scifo
Dark Young Link posted... I disagree. MaSatOG is 100% legit for allowing Mario/Sonic. It may be considered the personification of Nintendo/Sega, but is that any worse than L Block getting in because "It's funny"? How about when people vote for someone because they might be another character?
Or do we have a clear and defined "bar" as to what is a "real" rivalry?
I just don't believe Mario and Sonic are truly rivals in that game, and the Mario/Sonic rivalry in question has nothing to do with the any game the two are in. Would it be worse than L-Block? No. But I don't think L-Block should be in character battles either. But once a character gets in, there's no way to police the voting, so better to keep it out.
From: PropheticDeuce | #058 If you replace Link with another, distinct character (such as Squall or Travis Touchdown), I don't think the game would be as good, and the character would not be more popular.
UltimaterializerX posted... Chich isn't kidding about a bunch of people thinking his name is actually Zelda. I'm amazed by how many people think his name is that, or people who think Samus' name is actually Metroid.
Still? =/
These....these are like really young kids, 13 and under right?
Zylo the wolf posted... Wow the board didn't even whine this much when the female bracket was announced.
The female bracket is legitimately different--lots of people we hadn't seen before.
My frustration with Bacon's decisions here is that they make the contest as generic as possible. Like...there's so much potential for this contest to have hard-to-evaluate pairings. How much strength do Mario/Sonic gain by teaming up? How strong is Barkley/Jordan, given that a decent percentage of their voters may not be people who played BSUAJ:G? How strong are Einstein/Hitler?
But with it going hero-villain, I'm going to look at the X-stats for the hero or the game of origin, and make all my picks accordingly. There aren't even going to be the regular wrenches in this kind of strategy, like...Tifa--she's less strong than Cloud, but how much less strong? No, as far as contest strength this is going to be basically a "main character contest".
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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
7Deuce86 posted... I just don't believe Mario and Sonic are truly rivals in that game, and the Mario/Sonic rivalry in question has nothing to do with the any game the two are in. Would it be worse than L-Block? No. But I don't think L-Block should be in character battles either. But once a character gets in, there's no way to police the voting, so better to keep it out.
You continue to talk about a game series you've admitted to never even playing as if you know all about it. You're not even allowed to form an argument since you're just... Wrong.
Which, considering it was confirmed that they ARE indeed an eligible nomination, also proves that you're wrong even further.
...And that there was no need for this topic, I guess.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
Sort of off-topic, but I'm very pleased that so many people are vocalizing their disappointment with how this contest has been handled so far, both in terms of topic and eligible nominations. We've waited so long, and the product has so far been an unmitigated disaster.
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Houston Texans: 2-1 Drinks glass, throws out chocolate milk.
StealThisSheen posted... You continue to talk about a game series you've admitted to never even playing as if you know all about it. You're not even allowed to form an argument since you're just... Wrong.
Which, considering it was confirmed that they ARE indeed an eligible nomination, also proves that you're wrong even further.
...And that there was no need for this topic, I guess.
Doesn't change my stance on the issue. I still don't believe they should be eligible, and I haven't read or seen anything that leads me to believe they are rivals in any game. I am disappointed in SBAllen's backtracking. I could make a topic venting my frustration, but more likely, I'll just get over it.