Board 8 > Jesus Christ, Republican debate audience...

(+) Yeah! (+)

a tax on consumption is by necessity a tax on the poor, of course no reasonable person is for it.

Last time I checked, the rich consume more than the poor do.

In any case, if you oppose taxes that do not discriminate based on income, surely you agree with me that payroll taxes should be abolished, yes?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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So you admit that your salary comes from confiscated wealth, dislike the fact, and still keep the money?

All while arguing against the income tax?

Disgusting.

John Galt paid income tax on his income from his job at Taggart Transcontinental, didn't he?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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SmartMuffin posted...
Pretty sure she didn't like the income tax that you use to steal our money, Marxist.

True, but then again, neither do I. I'm all in favor of eliminating the income tax and replacing it with a tax on consumption. Are you?

So you admit that your salary comes from confiscated wealth, dislike the fact, and still keep the money?

All while arguing against the income tax?

Disgusting.

I'm not educated enough about taxation to have a stance on the income tax. I do know that if I had your feelings on the matter, I would refuse to work within an immoral system.

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Fast Falcon ate my bracket for dinner in the guru contest.

You know, sometimes I think people are too hard on SMuffin, because sometimes I do agree with what he's saying, or at least think he has a valid viewpoint.

But then threads like this happen and, well, it all goes down the drain.

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Man, who knew you guys were so interested in details about my personal life! I guess I have more in common with Sarah Palin than I ever thought!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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SmartMuffin posted...
So you admit that your salary comes from confiscated wealth, dislike the fact, and still keep the money?

All while arguing against the income tax?

Disgusting.

John Galt paid income tax on his income from his job at Taggart Transcontinental, didn't he?

He's a fictional character.

You, on the other hand, have the ability to live up to what you preach.

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Fast Falcon ate my bracket for dinner in the guru contest.

We can't change the decisions we made in the past.

Rest assured though, I am doing everything in my power to get myself ready to enter the real economy. You can't undo six years of being a slacker in a few months...

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Again, let me ask: is the debate up online anywhere?

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Perry would not be electable even without those comments. Those comments just make him a joke candidate.-- redrocket

From: Emporer_Kazbar | #104
You know, sometimes I think people are too hard on SMuffin, because sometimes I do agree with what he's saying, or at least think he has a valid viewpoint.

This is an element of any good troll. It's one thing to be able to say stuff that makes people mad, but it's another thing to be able to actually defend your arguments with validity and adapt/modify your statements to incite the most rage while maintaining your core stance.

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_foolmo_
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Yes we call those crazies when we don't understand any facet of their argument, contrarians when we pretend to do, and ahead of their time twenty years later.

Assuming we're talking about them at all, which we most assuredly won't about smuffin, at least on his political views. Has he actually owned up to any of his McCain > Obama rhetoric that I am (mis)remembering?

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meisnewbie posted...
Yes we call those crazies when we don't understand any facet of their argument, contrarians when we pretend to do, and ahead of their time twenty years later.

Assuming we're talking about them at all, which we most assuredly won't about smuffin, at least on his political views. Has he actually owned up to any of his McCain > Obama rhetoric that I am (mis)remembering?

He still thinks that Palin helped McCain more than she hurt him. What else is there to say?

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SmartMuffin posted...
Why aren't you working in the private sphere, anyhow? No degree?

Not yet. Getting there. Sorry, I wasn't born into a rich family and I didn't feel like going into massive debt. Also, I was a slacker in high school.

Ever heard of community college?

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Going back to the who McCain/Palin issue. McCain was behind in the polls and Palin was played as his trump card. It gave voters pause and had an election took place the next day he may have one. Once Palin settled in everthing went back to normal and McCain lost by roughly the same as he was predicted in polls before the reveal.

Ever heard of community college?

lol community college

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charmander6000 posted...
lol community college

It's not a substitute for a four year degree, but if the issue is money, it's a pretty good deal and a lot better than nothing.

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Smuffin has been in the military this whole time; there's no reason for him to forego that to attend a community college. And even with the 4-year college, he can attend that afterwards.

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90s games > 00s games

pretty sure S-Muf has been taking college courses lately.

Yep. As I said, I'm working on making myself competitive.

Anyway, the military not only pays me exceedingly well, they pay for my tuition while I'm in. I'll end up with a four year degree earned in about ten years but having not had to spend a dime on tuition out of my own pocket.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Iamdead7 posted...
Every time I think that Obama is screwed the Republicans remind us how insane and unelectable they are

It's hilarious watching American politics from the outside when this happens.

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From: SmartMuffin | #117
Yep. As I said, I'm working on making myself competitive.

Anyway, the military not only pays me exceedingly well, they pay for my tuition while I'm in. I'll end up with a four year degree earned in about ten years but having not had to spend a dime on tuition out of my own pocket.

ARGUE AGAINST THE INCOME TAX

advicesmuffin.jpg

HAVE A PUBLICLY FUNDED JOB AND GO TO COLLEGE ON THE GOVERNMENT'S DIME

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I headbang to Bruckner.

Video of the applause:




It got the biggest applause of the night.

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On second thought, this debate was in a blue state. I think that should make me feel more concerned about Perry actually winning the nomination....maybe we can't count on blue state Republicans to sink him.

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90s games > 00s games

Eh, it's probably not too accurate to consider the people in attendance at these things as very indicative of voters as a whole, even in that same party. There's gonna be a debate near me in a few weeks, and I looked it up to see if I could get tickets. Seemed like one has to donate to the party very generously if they wish to attend such debates and summits. Unless attendance is free, I'm guessing the audience at these debates are hardcore party loyalists regardless of the state.

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After having watched it in full, the winner of the debate was (and I was very surprised) Gingrich. Now, he's fully aware that his run has been handled disastrously, and that any realistic bid for the presidency ended a while ago. What's becoming clearer, however, is that he's making a graceful transition towards a VP bid, focusing on Perry. So many of his comments during the debate- don't tear apart Perry's book, don't pit Republicans against one another, fire Ben Bernanke- just reek of opportunism in the wriest sense. He just might pull it off, especially if he can continue to build a platform for himself as "the man who brings the party together."

As far as Romney v. Perry goes, it was an approximate tie: Romney's answers were on the whole a bit more substantive and relevant, but Perry proved himself fully capable of winning the nomination for the first time on the main stage.

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Perry would not be electable even without those comments. Those comments just make him a joke candidate.-- redrocket

Watching Board 8 discuss politics is truly a sad thing.

And the worst part is, this is more intelligent than your typical political discussion between your average Americans.

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SmartMuffin posted...
Yep. As I said, I'm working on making myself competitive.

Anyway, the military not only pays me exceedingly well, they pay for my tuition while I'm in. I'll end up with a four year degree earned in about ten years but having not had to spend a dime on tuition out of my own pocket.

How do you live with yourself? Taking money from other hard-working individuals to pay for an education you didn't work hard enough to afford for yourself?

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

How do you live with yourself? Taking money from other hard-working individuals to pay for an education you didn't work hard enough to afford for yourself?

I personally don't see that as a problem. You can believe something shouldn't exist while also realizing that it's best for you if you take advantage of it. If we complain about S-Muf using government funds to attend school, we're on the same page as those on the right who sneer every time a rich person publicly voices support for a progressive tax rate. "If you want to give the government all your money, why don't you just write a check!"

SmartMuffin realizes that voting against government spending may hurt him personally but still votes that way. It's consistent, at least. Which puts him above people who decry entitlement programs except for the ones that benefit them.

He's not being hypocritical here, any more than Warren Buffet is being a hypocrite for not donating money to the government since he says he doesn't pay enough in taxes.

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90s games > 00s games

And the idea of working to finance an education just is impossible at this point. The only way to earn enough money to pay for college nowadays generally is to have a college degree, in most cases. Naturally people can't do that, so we have various other ways to pay for it, such as scholarships, financial aid, parents, loans, etc. And this makes sense economically, because people should be able to earn more after getting a degree, and that's why the degree can be so expensive. Military servicemen getting their tuition paid doesn't seem unreasonable or hypocritical at all.

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90s games > 00s games

And the idea of working to finance an education just is impossible at this point. The only way to earn enough money to pay for college nowadays generally is to have a college degree, in most case

yeah this seems pretty absurd to me. the gateway to having most jobs that don't suck is something no one can afford. forcing a significant portion of the young population to start life with a bunch of debt is kind of ridiculous.

Last time I checked, the rich consume more than the poor do.

actually, they dont. Its why they are rich. Not to mention under the "fair" tax plan, all of the stuff the rich actually does buy a lot more than the poor are exempt from the "fair" tax.

Do you know how much our national debt would skyrocket if we implemented the "fair" tax?

Also, would you agree with me when i say a person making 25,000 a year is pretty much living paycheck to paycheck? So that person gets taxed on 100% of his/her income, while somebody who makes 100,000 a year and has the opportunity to save money is only being taxed on a fraction of their income? How "fair" is this bull **** dude?

This country gave more to the rich, its why the rich should have to pay more taxes. Oh, i forgot, you think everyone is some self made pull themselves up by their bootstraps person.

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(2:50:41 AM) Andrew Gripshover: and i've kind of accepted that pittsburgh is superior to my city

It doesn't seem completely impossible that we could go to a consumption-only tax system and still preserve some of the charities our government gives us if we also trimmed down how much we spend in many other aspects of the budget. A program that gives people the opportunity to advance themselves in college by giving work to the military seems like something productive enough that it would be one of the last things considered for cutting (or at least, the concept of one. who knows what's in the actual bill...) should we actually decide to start cutting s*** that really isn't worthwhile.

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OmarsComin posted...
How do you live with yourself? Taking money from other hard-working individuals to pay for an education you didn't work hard enough to afford for yourself?

I personally don't see that as a problem. You can believe something shouldn't exist while also realizing that it's best for you if you take advantage of it. If we complain about S-Muf using government funds to attend school, we're on the same page as those on the right who sneer every time a rich person publicly voices support for a progressive tax rate. "If you want to give the government all your money, why don't you just write a check!"

SmartMuffin realizes that voting against government spending may hurt him personally but still votes that way. It's consistent, at least. Which puts him above people who decry entitlement programs except for the ones that benefit them.

That's a nice argument, but you've got me exactly wrong. Yes, he has taken advantage of the system as it it exists, and there is nothing wrong with that. But by doing so he undermines every argument he has made his entire life.

And if every argument he has made in his entire life is correct, then basically what he is saying is "**** you for being an idealist..."

In short, what he is really saying is "the system works and I don't want YOU to take advantage of it. Go **** yourself... and believe me on that. Because if you don't I might get ****ed too and that's just not acceptable because I'm too self-important."

Yeah, he speaks some truth. And the truth he speaks is "don't take tax money I want to hoard... You greedy bastards"

That's his MO. His life. It's not just how he has operated so far, but how he always will. He will make any excuse for his actions (and gains) so far, and in the end all it amounts to is "no matter how hard you work or how much value you provide, you're not as good as me and don't deserve as much as me. End of story."

That's SM in a nutshell. That's how he will always be in a nutshell. Even if you work a thousand times harder than him. Even if you're an awesome inventor that radicalizes the entire world with a keystroke you will never be more than that to him.

You are ****, he is some "hardworking" individual that deserves more than you,

That is his view of the world.

End of story.

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

From: the icon ownz all | #066

everything that needed to be said, was done in this post

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He's not being hypocritical here, any more than Obama is being a hypocrite for not donating money to the government since he says he doesn't pay enough in taxes.

Smartmuffin = Obama

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I like how instead of debating the issues, we're debating my own personal career decisions. Stay classy, Board 8!

Anyway, the comparison to Buffet isn't entirely accurate. He's asking the government to do something he could easily do himself, which is, take more of his money. I'm asking the government to (among other things) eliminate the income tax. My quitting my job wouldn't accomplish that. They'd just replace me, most likely with someone worse at the job than I am!

Anyway, rational self-interest and such. It's a real shame that we live in a society where rational self-interest compels me to accept a government job, but hey.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Well, we've defeated you on the issues so much this is more interesting.

oh wate forgot ignore cause i kicked his ass too hardlolololol

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He's asking the government to do something he could easily do himself, which is, take more of his money.

That's not entirely accurate. He is asking the government to take more of everyone in his income ranges money. That is not something he can do himself, and him giving more of his own money would not have nearly the same effect.

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Anyway, rational self-interest and such. It's a real shame that we live in a society where rational self-interest compels me to accept a government job, but hey.

Do you really think you are lesser than somebody because you "only have" a government job?

I mean this whole "anti-government, make everything private" mentality is stupid. It doesnt work. It has the same repercussions of a "government should own everything" mentality.

Complete socialism is horrible because it stunts long (and to a lesser extent, short term) term growth. However its a lot safer. Complete capitalism allows more innovation, but it also is unstable and causes less innovation than a mix of capitalism and socialism. And dont give me your standard garbage about "complete capitalism has never been tried" crap. Weve gotten close enough in the 1890s and in the 1920s.

I have never met an obama-care supporter who thinks there should be no private industry in medicine and it should be completely controlled by the government. However everyone whose against obama-care doesnt want any government involvement. Its sounds like to me that the complete capitalists are the ones placing restrictions on the economy......

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(2:50:41 AM) Andrew Gripshover: and i've kind of accepted that pittsburgh is superior to my city

SmartMuffin posted...
Why aren't you working in the private sphere, anyhow? No degree?

Not yet. Getting there. Sorry, I wasn't born into a rich family and I didn't feel like going into massive debt. Also, I was a slacker in high school.

wait YOU don't have a private sector job?

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But by doing so he undermines every argument he has made his entire life.

Please explain this to me. SMuffin's not exactly a hardline libertarian: he's gone on record plenty of times as supporting certain government programs, the military chief among them. Working for the US military is really just another version of getting a job. He's not being hypocritical.

As for the Fair Tax: no, it wouldn't raise the national debt. It would actually lower it, by most accounts. Problem is, it's a regressive tax that disproportionately affects the poor, so it's dead in the water politically.

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Perry would not be electable even without those comments. Those comments just make him a joke candidate.-- redrocket

The only way a consumption tax will work is if you avoid taxing staples, like food, rent, power, public transportation, etc.

But then you run a deficit unless you make the tax high, which nobody will agree with.

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My Japanese alter-ego.
Hey all this is Bartz btw.

Yep. Or just go with Plan B: **** the poor.

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Perry would not be electable even without those comments. Those comments just make him a joke candidate.-- redrocket

The fair tax is not regressive. That is a lie.

It is the same flat rate being charged to everyone.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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But people with more pay a lower percentage of their income. It's much harsher on poor people than if everyone paid the same percentage of their income. In practice, the fair tax, translated into income tax terms, would probably look something like.....

Poor: 50%
Middle class: 40%
Rich: 20%

Warren Buffet would probably pay far less than 1% since he lives like a middle class person.

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90s games > 00s games

Augh Board 8 trying to discuss economics.

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Operator of the Would You Hit It Topics!

But people with more pay a lower percentage of their income. It's much harsher on poor people than if everyone paid the same percentage of their income. In practice, the fair tax, translated into income tax terms, would probably look something like.....

Irrelevant. How much income someone makes is none of my, yours, or the government's business.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

In which case I submit that how much you consume isn't the government's business either. The fair tax doesn't go far enough, we need a flat tax for everyone where everyone pays the same amount in absolute dollars. This would be, by the way, the only type of tax that produces zero distortionary effect on the economy, under basic economic theory. Though the basic theory is probably far too simple!

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90s games > 00s games

we need a flat tax for everyone where everyone pays the same amount in absolute dollars

Fine. I'd vote for that.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Fine. I'd vote for that.

So you'd vote for something which would inevitably lead to violent revolution in your own country.

You're either much less intelligent than I thought or you've entered full-on troll mode.

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Classic leftist.

Don't blame the people who would engage in violent revolution, blame the people who worked within the democratic system to vote for a policy they preferred that supposedly will lead to one.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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