I decided to replay MGS4 this past week because of the poll on Monday. I still don't understand the love for this guy. He's not a tragic hero like Big Boss. The only thing he has going for him is that he's a badass. Why did Kojima try to play him up to be a likable guy that you feel sorry for?
In MGS1 he was this guy that's supposedly legendary and everyone orgasms at the thought of his name. I don't see it. He's just a one dimensional jackass that spouted cool one liners. I didn't care for him + Meryl, in fact Otacon stole that game's spotlight. Maybe it has something to do with me not having played MG1&2 but from MGS1-4 I just don't find Snake to be very likable.
Snake was amazing in MGS2. Maybe it's because of the beginning of the game when you go "OH **** SNAKE AND OTACON" and then he goes onto uncover a conspiracy. I actually found him to be a badass in this game because he ran around a room full of US Marines taking pictures and didn't get caught. That stood out to me. Then he played a supporting role to Raiden and he was fun to talk to through the codec. I guess I like it when he isn't the focus because you see him through the eyes of someone else and you can actually admire him.
Then in MGS4 he turns old and he has business to finish with Liquid Ocelot. But what business? I don't think it's personal business because if it was up to him he'd have wanted to live the rest of his days smoking peacefully. So what was the point of him going after Liquid? Isn't it supposed to be the continuation of the Patriots storyline? Snake's story should have ended in MGS1, well part of the MGS storyline should have ending there.
This whole Solid and Liquid storyline sucked ass. The TRUE Son of Liberty was Solidus. So why did Ocelot hypnotize himself to be Liquid to drive Snake to destroy the Patriots when he could have ****ing helped Solidus? Snake really had nothing to do with any of this crap yet he has to "finish his final battle". WTF? His battle ended at Shadow Moses in MGS1. He passed the torch onto Raiden, so what's the point of MGS4? And why the **** did they bring back Big Boss at the end? So we can see him salute The Boss's grave?
They ****ed up Mei Ling in MGS4. I mean really? You make someone like Naomi hot and then you go and mess up Mei Ling who is supposed to be a hot Asian babe?
But what he does he is forced to do. He doesn't rise up to the occasion, he's there because he's a clone of Big Boss and had to do his duty. Big Boss is the true tragic hero. Not Snake. Snake really had nothing to do with the Patriots yet he was the focus in the game that ended the Patriot's rule. I can't bring myself to care for him because he has no attachments, except for Otacon. And at no point in the story does Snake risk losing Otacon. It's hard to care for someone that has nothing to lose.
I fully agree with what David Hayter said regarding the ending of the game. Rather, the "stinger." I'm absolutely ashamed that Snake didn't have the nuts to kill himself for the greater good.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo Now this is entertainment!
The friggin' microwave scene is the ultimate "Rise up to the occasion" moment.
[quoted text]
Well, other than the concern that the mutating FOXDIE within him is basically going to make him a weapon of mass destruction.
The microwave scene wasn't very moving for me. The only reason HE had to get through it was because he had nothing to lose. He had no reason to be involved in this Patriot mess.
And if he actually killed himself in the end I would have saluted him. Instead it's like "oh hey you don't have to die(yet) because DEM". It would have been like if BB didn't have to shoot The Boss and told her to go live in China or some thing.
I still don't see how any of this relates to Snake other than the fact he is BB's clone. Even Raiden had more of a reason to "finish the fight" than Snake.
From: GranzonEx | #018 The microwave scene wasn't very moving for me. The only reason HE had to get through it was because he had nothing to lose. He had no reason to be involved in this Patriot mess.
But he did it for the sake of Raiden, who did have a lot to lose. And really, Snake isn't doing any of this for himself because he doesn't have much of a future. He does it out of a sense of obligation for those who come after him, which is admirable.
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"So cold. I am always by your side." "There ain't no gettin' off of this train we on!"
From: SuperAngelo128 | #022 short answer: because everyone wanted to play Solid Snake one last time before the series ended
I'll buy that.
From: LeonhartFour | #023 But he did it for the sake of Raiden, who did have a lot to lose. And really, Snake isn't doing any of this for himself because he doesn't have much of a future. He does it out of a sense of obligation for those who come after him, which is admirable.
But that's the thing, you KNOW he doesn't die from that. You know he was at no point in risk going through that on top of him having nothing to lose. It diminished the impact. Yea he was doing it for Raiden, but why? Why the hell did Campbell drag him back into this mess when it could have easily been someone else? I would have cried manly tears if he went through the microwave after beating Liquid and then collapsing and dying at the end.
Campbell's kind of a jackass too, really. 'Snake, I love you and you're my best pal. Now get in there and do this insane suicide mission, because you're the only one who can.'
--
We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
You can argue that the presentation could've been better, and I won't really disagree. I think MGS4 would've been better if Snake had actually died at the end. Everything leading up to the game was building up to it, and then it seemed like Kojima wimped out.
Campbell drags Snake back into this mess because he trusts Snake more than anyone, and he knows he can rely on him to get the job done. Even at his old age, he was still the man who made the impossible possible.
I don't know if "You know he doesn't die from that" is really a valid argument in the first place. Using that argument, you could diminish nearly every "heroic" scene from any game where the hero doesn't die. It doesn't matter if you know he's not going to die. The point is that nobody in the game knew that.
From: DeathChicken | #025 Campbell's kind of a jackass too, really. 'Snake, I love you and you're my best pal. Now get in there and do this insane suicide mission, because you're the only one who can.'
Exactly!
From: LeonhartFour | #026 You can argue that the presentation could've been better, and I won't really disagree. I think MGS4 would've been better if Snake had actually died at the end. Everything leading up to the game was building up to it, and then it seemed like Kojima wimped out.
Campbell drags Snake back into this mess because he trusts Snake more than anyone, and he knows he can rely on him to get the job done. Even at his old age, he was still the man who made the impossible possible.
I don't know if "You know he doesn't die from that" is really a valid argument in the first place. Using that argument, you could diminish nearly every "heroic" scene from any game where the hero doesn't die. It doesn't matter if you know he's not going to die. The point is that nobody in the game knew that.
I agree he should have died. I wouldn't have minded even if he didn't die at the microwave, if he actually suicides at the end that would have been enough.
Campbell could have easily sent Raiden and Snake could have been support like MGS2. His story was done, Raiden was still in the fight. I don't think Kojima should have focused MGS4 solely on Snake. They promised to go after the Patriots together at the end of MGS2 and I would have loved the continuation of that. When Snake isn't being a dick and actually helpful like he was in MGS2 he's actually quite a likable guy.
But knowing Liquid isn't dealt with meant his fight wasn't over, so he couldn't die. Otacon almost sold that scene for me but I just knew it wasn't over. It absolutely mattered because that scene was meant to make me feel sorry for him, make me admire him, and if I knew he was not in trouble and that he still had a few miles to go before finishing the race then it takes all the tension away.
Solid Snake honestly isn't the main focus on MGS4. He's the main character, but I'd argue that Ocelot takes more of the central role in the game, personally.
And really, you can probably ultimately blame the fans that Snake is the main character of MGS4 because they would have rioted if he wasn't.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please." "Not until the end. Always."
It's been a while so I could be wrong, but wasn't Snake basically kidnapped/forced to help with Shadow Moses? Between that and "Master Miller" + Naomi betraying him, Campbell constantly lying to him, and seeing Gray Fox... I'd probably be a dick too.
From: LeonhartFour | #028 Solid Snake honestly isn't the main focus on MGS4. He's the main character, but I'd argue that Ocelot takes more of the central role in the game, personally.
And really, you can probably ultimately blame the fans that Snake is the main character of MGS4 because they would have rioted if he wasn't.
I didn't even think much of Ocelot until the end when BB popped up and explained things. I'm glad they finished up Snake's story, but I felt it should have been left at MGS1. Needs more BB.
From: AdditionalPylon | #029 It's been a while so I could be wrong, but wasn't Snake basically kidnapped/forced to help with Shadow Moses? Between that and "Master Miller" + Naomi betraying him, Campbell constantly lying to him, and seeing Gray Fox... I'd probably be a dick too.
He was basically forced out of retirement in both MGS1&4. He's better in MGS4 though. I still don't find his destiny/being the shadow/light bull**** interesting though.
In the not too distant future... warfare is the basis of the global economy... and technology has created a new kind of military... where every move... and every thought... of every soldier... can be controlled... EXCEPT FOR ONE.
When war becomes business... when armies are bought and sold... who is left in control?
This summer... evil is powerful... but courage is SOLID.
Snake is at his most amazing as a character in MGS4.
-- One Piece: Pirates with style! -= Metal Gear Solid: Tactical Espionage Action =-
As far as MGS4, I have a bunch of issues with Snake and the story in general, but what can you do. Definitely a disappointing end to the main storyline.
From: ZFS | #037 As far as MGS4, I have a bunch of issues with Snake and the story in general, but what can you do. Definitely a disappointing end to the main storyline.
I want to hear about Snake! The story needs no explanation since it's even more out the ass than MGS2, and I could understand MGS2 >_>
From: GranzonEx | #038 He was still a pawn to the Patriots in MGS4 >_>
Ultimately, he's Ocelot's pawn because he ends up doing exactly what Ocelot wants him to do in the end.
Honestly, that takes a lot more of the punch out of the storyline than anything else, realizing that all that effort you expended trying to destroy the Patriots AI, you just did exactly what Ocelot wanted you to do.
Ocelot not really being Liquid took some punch out of it, too.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please." "Not until the end. Always."
I liked that Ocelot, in the end, was himself. He has always been the ultimate mastermind throughout the entire series, so having him lose control of his own mind to someone like Liquid would have deflated everything, especially since Liquid had no real place in everything that was going on. I think they could have explained it better, but everything revolving around Ocelot was well done, right down to the explanation for why he did what he did.
Well, it really takes the punch out of virtually every MGS storyline except for MGS3 that you basically just ended up doing what the bad guys wanted you to do all along.
In MGS3, it actually works that The Boss wanted you to finish her off all along.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please." "Not until the end. Always."
I liked how Ocelot turned out too. I rather him be a huge BB fanboy than getting taken over by an arm. To be honest if it turned out Liquid really lived through the arm and freed everyone from Patriot control and named it "Guns of the Patriots" I would have raged because Solidus would have been made obsolete.
Well, that is part of the overall problem of MGS4 -- it's very MGS3-centric, at the expense of other games. Like, it was fairly easy to predict who the Patriots were after playing Portable Ops, but that they went full on MGS3 with that reveal was kinda weak. It made MGS's world feel very small and enclosed. Everyone was somehow connected to each other in a way that was a little too convenient.
Well I thought it was natural to just play it off MGS3. I mean there wasn't anything they could use from MGS1, and MGS2 was basically leading into the whole nanomachine business. Though I didn't think they would make everyone from that time a Patriot.
MGS4 was all about closing all the MGS storylines.
Half the time you spend fighting the Patriots to end the MGS2 thing, half the time you spend fighting Liquid to end the MGS1 thing, and at the end you get the whole Big Boss thing for MGS3.
If you look at the entire series from a top-down perspective, the real heroes are Big Boss and Ocelot. MGS4 did pretty much push MGS1 and 2 to the side, so if MGS3 wasn't your favorite, I can see how get annoyed with how MGS4 dealt with Snake. But then you have the problem of MGS3 not being your favorite...
-- _foolmo_ 'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28