Board 8 > Adventures in government: Trucking companies can't fire drunks

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/8-16-11d.cfm

Oh. Well that's obviously good for everyone.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Just because someone's an alcoholic doesn't mean they are driving drunk. Especially since they have been provided with treatment.

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"Ahem! There is *sand* on my *boot*!"--Kefka
Black Turtle beat me, Yesmar in the Fall 2010 Guru Contest!

Just because someone's an alcoholic doesn't mean they are driving drunk. Especially since they have been provided with treatment.

So? Why should a company be forced to employ someone who may have drinking issues when they can easily hire someone who has never had them?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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You want alcoholics to be jobless?

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Winter is coming

You want alcoholics to be jobless?

I'd rather alcoholics be jobless than non-alcoholics, yes.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Why should a company be forced to employ someone who may have drinking issues when they can easily hire someone who has never had them?

This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

Lasa just compared skin-color to being a drunk.

Seriously dude, you make it way too easy sometimes.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Mr Lasastryke posted...
Why should a company be forced to employ someone who may have drinking issues when they can easily hire someone who has never had them?

This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

Because being black doesn't actually makes the individual less capable, being an alcoholic can cause problems even if the risks are low.

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Best LPer ever, Gix ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt5YKmP7ecY

the driver at the Fort Smith location had worked for the company for five years without incident

from the article

there is no basis for firing him.

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I'm "kind of a big deal".
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From: Mr Lasastryke | #006
Why should a company be forced to employ someone who may have drinking issues when they can easily hire someone who has never had them?

This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

If you're implying that white people are more reliable and profitable than black people, then yes, it is!

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"But you have been given freedom. Freedom to be...outside."
"I am lightning...the rain transformed."

Lasa just compared skin-color to being a drunk.

Ah, the old tactic of "complaining that the comparison doesn't work 100% while ignoring the point made by the comparison." Always a good one.

Also, my Dad is an employed alcoholic. You're saying that he shouldn't have a job, and since you're for the complete extermination of welfare, you're also saying he should starve to death. Good to know.

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

there is no basis for firing him.

How about, "They didn't feel like employing him anymore,"

When exactly did we reach a point where private employers needed the permission of the federal government to fire people?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

Have you ever had an interview? You're suppose to be judged. While there are things that shouldn't be judged such as race/religion/whatever that doesn't mean nothing should be judged.

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Congratulations to Black Turtle for winning the guru contest.

Because being black doesn't actually makes the individual less capable, being an alcoholic can cause problems even if the risks are low.

"Can cause problems" isn't a reason to fire someone. Anyone can cause problems at their job.

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

Maybe it would help if I read the article, still the point stands.

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BOP Results: http://charmander6000.webs.com/GotD%20BOP.xls
Congratulations to Black Turtle for winning the guru contest.

Also, my Dad is an employed alcoholic. You're saying that he shouldn't have a job, and since you're for the complete extermination of welfare, you're also saying he should starve to death. Good to know.

That's not what I'm saying at all. You're intentionally misrepresenting my position, as usual.

I'm saying that nobody should be forced to employ anyone, alcoholic or not. If your dad's employer feels his alcoholism does not affect his performance, good for them. This particular employer did not feel this way about that employee.

Also, welfare isn't the only thing preventing the unemployed from starving to death. If he lived in America, he could easily go to a mission or soup kitchen that is most likely run by a church. But maybe the welfare state has corrupted society so much that they don't have those in your country.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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How about, "They didn't feel like employing him anymore,"

When exactly did we reach a point where private employers needed the permission of the federal government to fire people?

If they do not feel like employing him because of a disease that he has, that is discrimination if that disease has yet to affect his performance. if you are asking why we are banning discrimination in the workplace, i don't know what to say to you.

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I'm "kind of a big deal".
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While there are things that shouldn't be judged such as race/religion/whatever that doesn't mean nothing should be judged.

When did I say nothing should be judged in a job interview?

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

From: SlymDayspring | #017
If they do not feel like employing him because of a disease that he has, that is discrimination if that disease has yet to affect his performance. if you are asking why we are banning discrimination in the workplace, i don't know what to say to you.

Alcoholism isn't a disease.

I'm aware that this statement is potentially going to open up a can of worms, but it isn't.

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Alcoholism isn't a disease.

I'm aware that this statement is potentially going to open up a can of worms, but it isn't.

according to the american medical association it is a disease, and no offense, but i trust their expertise more than "some guy on the internet".

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I'm "kind of a big deal".
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and no offense, but i trust their expertise more than "some guy on the internet".

And this is why society is screwed.

At one point, the american medical association said that homosexuality was a disease. Did you trust their judgment on that?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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And this is why society is screwed.

Because we respect the opinions of professional doctors?

I believe you might be thinking of the APA in terms of homosexuality being considered a disorder, but if it did happen with the AMA as well, I am sure that their opinions changed due to professional research on the subject, as should be expected in any scientific field.

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"Ahem! There is *sand* on my *boot*!"--Kefka
Black Turtle beat me, Yesmar in the Fall 2010 Guru Contest!

No, it didn't. That was the APA.

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I'm "kind of a big deal".
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My point is more general about "trusting the experts." Historically, the experts have an accuracy rate that is pretty darn close to 0%. Intuitive individual minds make discoveries and prove them wrong on a nearly constant basis. To trust the experts is to embrace mediocrity.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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From: Mr Lasastryke | #018
When did I say nothing should be judged in a job interview?

When you said that judging someone's value as an employee based on their actions is bad

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_foolmo_
'so I can potentially win the guru without getting the final right?' - BlAcK TuRtLe

My point is more general about "trusting the experts." Historically, the experts have an accuracy rate that is pretty darn close to 0%. Intuitive individual minds make discoveries and prove them wrong on a nearly constant basis. To trust the experts is to embrace mediocrity.

I'm pretty sure that most medical discoveries in the past fifty years have been made by professionals (or students advancing in a professional system.)

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"Ahem! There is *sand* on my *boot*!"--Kefka
Black Turtle beat me, Yesmar in the Fall 2010 Guru Contest!

When you said that judging someone's value as an employee based on their actions is bad

Direct me to the post where I said that, please.

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in my life. I know you do this to annoy people, but all it does is make you look bad.

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You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me.

If you really wanna talk free market, anyone should be able to hire or not hire anyone for whatever reason they want.

Employers really should be able to hire or fire whoever they want for whatever reason they want. But since too many employers would abuse that privilege, government sees fit to take it away.

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My Japanese alter-ego.
Hey all this is Bartz btw.

My point is more general about "trusting the experts." Historically, the experts have an accuracy rate that is pretty darn close to 0%. Intuitive individual minds make discoveries and prove them wrong on a nearly constant basis. To trust the experts is to embrace mediocrity.

I can think of very few times in recent history where people have been like "this is a disease" only to have that be wrong. Psychology was a very new science and homosexuality was a taboo, misunderstood, hidden thing during these times. The two are hardly comparable situations. I will be more than happy to take "an individuals" opinion into account over a professional, assuming they actually have solid evidence and reasoning to back it up...but the fact of the matter is that professionals generally are, you know, focused on their field and have more knowledge of it than average joe's.

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GANON1025 posted...
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in my life. I know you do this to annoy people, but all it does is make you look bad.

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Official Queen ***** of the Universe!

When exactly did we reach a point where private employers needed the permission of the federal government to fire people?

somewhere along the path of Democracy, where the country is ruled in the interests of the people who are part of it, and not in the interests of corporate dictatorships!

the idea that alcoholism is a disease is really f***ing stupid

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Historically the experts are right much more often than the average person and certainly much more than 0% of the time. That's why they're "experts." Of course they're not right near 100% of the time, and there are many more non-experts than experts, so a lot of innovations will come from non-experts. It's sort of like this board and contests- every year, the board destroys the casuals in bracketmaking. There are still going to be matches where the board gets embarassed, but those are outweighed by all the obvious matches we get right and the casuals miss.

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90s games > 00s games

excellent post from red sox

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My Japanese alter-ego.
Hey all this is Bartz btw.

So, what exactly were the "experts" of medicine in medieval times correct about?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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i wonder how good a blind person would be at piloting a plane...

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

i wonder how good a blind person would be at piloting a plane...

Not nearly as well as an alcoholic who doesn't drive drunk can drive a truck!

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"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto

Also, if it makes you feel better, Smuffin, here's some moral justification for this. A company (just like a person) is free to do whatever they want. They can make any contract they want. When a company hires someone, they enter into a contract with that person. The company is then bound by the contract and cannot break it. The contract is governed under laws, which are its basis, and it depends on those laws for its implied terms. The company should know what the law is before entering into a contract, just as they should read the contract before entering into it.

If that's true, then all we need for this government action to be moral is to accept that it is valid for government to pass laws concerning the economy. Which I know you don't accept, but it's a whole lot more acceptable to me than a company being forced to employ someone. They're not being forced to. They chose to. Now they're stuck with the decision.

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90s games > 00s games

This is like asking "why should a company be forced to employ someone who's black when they can easily hire someone who's white?"

This is one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever read on this board.

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Is SM arguing against an Act that was signed by Bush?

nice try man

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skull

So, what exactly were the "experts" of medicine in medieval times correct about?

what exactly were the "individuals" in medieval times correct about medicine?

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From: SmartMuffin | #037
So, what exactly were the "experts" of medicine in medieval times correct about?

In Medieval times? They knew the anatomy of the body (and many of the functions). They knew antidotes to many poisons. They knew about rest and elevation of injured extremities. Brain surgeries could be surprisingly successful considering their knowledge and lack of anathesia. They knew how to treat trauma injuries.

Certainly more than the average villager.

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Sack Up Or Shut Up™

This is one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever read on this board.

I like how you viciously attacked TomNook for not backing himself up in an argument and are now doing the exact same thing.

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

I like how you viciously attacked TomNook for not backing himself up in an argument and are now doing the exact same thing.

Comparing alcoholism, which can be considered a disease or an addiction, to the color of someone's skin is completely stupid. How about that? You would have had a point if your original post was something along the lines of someone getting fired after working at a place for years because he was a criminal (who already served his time for it). But bringing racism into the argument really made no sense.

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"Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

Didn't SMuffin once proclaim that Slippery Slope was in fact not a fallacy but a valid way to debate?

Taking the Slippery Slope from alcoholism to race is fair then.

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Well, I don't even really care about this law one way or another. I don't know if the government should prevent firing people for dumb reasons, but to hold this up as an example of the Creeping Threat of Evil Big Communist Government is pretty ridiculous. And yes, having a chemical dependency on alcohol most certainly is an illness. It may be even more harmful than being an FFaddict!

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"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto

Taking the Slippery Slope from alcoholism to race is fair then.

But that's not a slippery slope, that's leaping from the summit of one mountain directly to the summit of a different one!

Unless YOU'RE implying that that blacks are more likely to be alcoholics or something <_<

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Didn't SMuffin once proclaim that Slippery Slope was in fact not a fallacy but a valid way to debate?

Taking the Slippery Slope from alcoholism to race is fair then.

That would be a "You're another" fallacy, wouldn't it?

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"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto