Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 5 - Let It Go and Move On Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Where we let it go and move on!

Revised spoiler warning: Spoilers for every game in the series that's in English in any form are fair game, and that includes AAI2 now. Mark spoilers if you want to talk about DGS (which I think only dowolf and I here have completed in any form), but other than that, go nuts!
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SILENCE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0BwOvHzTk

(I need to do the DLC case some day).
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You definitely do! It's a great case!
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TheRock1525 posted...

SILENCE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0BwOvHzTk

(I need to do the DLC case some day).

The one in AA5? Yeah, you do. (crossing my fingers that you avoided spoilers)

I know it involves a whale thanks to this:

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2014-09-29.jpg
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Gumshoe's gotten himself a nice tan since the last time we saw him apparently
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I knew something felt weird about that comic, and then I realized that it's because it shows Gumshoe in the AA5 timeline

I miss Gumshoe. :(

Boo worst AA catchphrase

Anyway, 2-4 investigation day 2 beated

*Meow!*
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Boo worst AA catchphrase

Let it go and move on
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Tag? Tag.
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it's not particularly clear to me why retinz shows off his magic trick by making the camera disappear! but it's necessary, as it's the only direct hint that we get about his identity.
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Retinz does it because Athena threatens to have his camera confiscated, and he probably does it because he's an arrogant troll, too.
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I mean, they did

Betty knew Trucy moved the lifts during the trick even though there's no way she should have been able to know that

How was there no way to know that, though? I really don't get this part. I get that Trucy says she didn't say anything about it, but how do we know for sure that she didn't let anything slip? And there's literally nobody on staff in this magic show? That's impossible. This is a really big problem with 6-2 for me, actually - there are probably other cases where this is true too (1-3?), but it really stands out in 6-2, that there simply has to be more people involved with the case than there actually are. Where's the theater crew? Why is Trucy moving the lifts herself? Why isn't there a stage manager? Even a very minimal crew would be larger than zero.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I mean, they did

Betty knew Trucy moved the lifts during the trick even though there's no way she should have been able to know that

How was there no way to know that, though? I really don't get this part. I get that Trucy says she didn't say anything about it, but how do we know for sure that she didn't let anything slip? And there's literally nobody on staff in this magic show? That's impossible. This is a really big problem with 6-2 for me, actually - there are probably other cases where this is true too (1-3?), but it really stands out in 6-2, that there simply has to be more people involved with the case than there actually are. Where's the theater crew? Why is Trucy moving the lifts herself? Why isn't there a stage manager? Even a very minimal crew would be larger than zero.

this is ace attorney

LeonhartFour posted...

Retinz does it because Athena threatens to have his camera confiscated, and he probably does it because he's an arrogant troll, too.

latter answer seems more plausible than the former - there's absolutely no need to tip your hand that way, but yeah, he does seem too full of himself to care
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Paratroopa1 posted...

I get that Trucy says she didn't say anything about it, but how do we know for sure that she didn't let anything slip? And there's literally nobody on staff in this magic show? That's impossible. This is a really big problem with 6-2 for me, actually - there are probably other cases where this is true too (1-3?), but it really stands out in 6-2, that there simply has to be more people involved with the case than there actually are. Where's the theater crew? Why is Trucy moving the lifts herself? Why isn't there a stage manager? Even a very minimal crew would be larger than zero.

There's no reason to believe Trucy is lying or mistaken, so you can accept her statement at face value. It's one of the basic rules of mysteries so you don't have to question every single thing everyone says.

Also, this was essentially a dress rehearsal and not the final show. I mean, you could argue there should still be more people there, but it's at least a semi-excuse.
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Anyway, 6-2 complete! Whew, what a long haul! Three more testimonies: One by Trucy and two by Retinz. Trucy's performance testimony is fantastic. It's one of the highlights of the game for me. It's just so fun and clever. It's a fantastic cross-examination, too, if you press everything, because Trucy and the Judge gradually get more frustrated by Apollo's frequent interruptions. "Mr. Justice, I'll see you in my chambers after the trial." So good. Unfortunately, there's a contradiction in the footage because the moment when she makes the switch isn't in the video (another hint that Retinz is Reus because he would know when the swap happens). Fortunately, Bonny has an obsessed fanboy who filmed her the entire time and for some reason thought it would be cool to give her a copy of it. Even more fortunately, Bonny is finally willing to stand up to Betty in order to help Trucy.

Apollo asserts that the film was edited with malicious intent to make Trucy look suspicious, so Retinz shows up to defend his business practices. When questioned about why Retinz would want to do all this to Trucy in the first place, Apollo posits that there's only one person who would have such a deep seated hatred of Trucy and especially Troupe Gramarye: The Great Mr. Reus! He points to the discrepancy between the video and the poster to show that the victim doesn't have that nasty scar on his arm. When pressured to roll up his sleeves, Retinz isn't afraid to show off said scar, and all of his animations shift into a bunch of magic tricks, which is great. Also, I love this dude's theme. It's super good. I know tran hates Reus but loves Troupe Gramarye and their magical band of douchebags, but he proves he's just as big of a jerk as any of them with his vindictive plot! I'm sure Magnifi was looking up and smiling the entire time (obscure "Friends" reference ahoy).

Anyway, the main point of contention is trying to prove how Retinz could've committed the murder without being there. Apollo actually makes a bunch of clever deductions, but Nahyuta calls him out for not having any hard evidence of it. His case is entirely circumstantial. However, it's all he's got, so he continues to roll with it by doing a final Revisualization to show that the criminal had to be someone who wasn't there because he didn't know about Bonny screwing up the trick until afterward, and the final piece of evidence is the blood on the hole of the coffin coupled with the inverse handprints. Apollo's case is still circumstantial at this point, but it's convincing enough to pass muster. He's basically become a master of figuring out magic tricks at this point! Must be in the blood!

Retinz has a very bizarre breakdown, but we get to hear his theme one more time, so whatever. Despite his defeat at the hands of Apollo, Retinz still declares himself the victor over Trucy and Troupe Gramarye, completely unaware that he still lost to someone with the Gramarye blood in the end. Trucy says Retinz doesn't deserve to call himself a magician because of his attitude toward magic, but he says he was able to dupe her well enough, so maybe she's the one who doesn't deserve the title. Trucy seems to let it get her down a bit, but Apollo snaps her out of it and is somehow duped into being her assistant for the show!

Whew, I went through that at warp speed and glossed over a bunch of stuff since there was a lot of ground to cover, but that'll do, I guess!
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6-2 investigation day 1 playtime: 2:49:13
6-2 trial day 1 playtime: ????
6-2 in-game trial total: 3:09:33
6-2 total playtime: 5:58:46

E2-5 - 9:36:06
3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
E1-5 - 8:42:23
E2-3 - 8:09:06
E2-2 - 7:29:23
5-6 - 7:21:19
5-2 - 7:13:40
5-3 - 6:50:24
4-4 - 6:38:01
5-5 - 6:16:05
3-2 - 6:02:56
E2-4 - 6:01:14
6-2 - 5:58:46
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
E1-4 - 4:58:26
2-2 - 4:47:40
5-4 - 4:27:31
E1-3 - 4:02:16
1-3 - 3:49:35
E2-1 - 3:36:32
E1-2 - 3:15:49
6-1 - 2:59:52
1-2 - 2:40:40
5-1 - 2:19:33
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35

Yeah, I was way wrong about 6-2. Didn't expect it to get THAT close to 5-5, whoa!
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whoa. 6-5 is gonna be insane
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vindicated, ahead of the curve, etc

agreed that retinz post-transformation is awesome

taking him down is pretty awkward/unsatisfying, though, and i feel like that hesitance comes through in your writeup
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reposting my prediz and paging @Zyxyz0 about archiving?

6-1: 3:18
6-2: 5:42
6-3: 7:49
6-4: 3:21
6-5: 12:35
6-6: 6:25
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SeabassDebeste posted...

taking him down is pretty awkward/unsatisfying, though, and i feel like that hesitance comes through in your writeup

Well, it's because even when you beat him, he still acts like he won. I guess in his own mind he did. Retinz has a tough alibi to break, and you don't really nail him with any direct evidence. Apollo's deductions are sound and I think they're convincing enough, but it's certainly an unconventional ending to a case.
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Oh right, I forgot to mention Nahyuta's best moments in the case. When Retinz hands him his business card, Nahyuta is like, "Ah, I've familiarized myself with this custom and the appropriate replies to it, such as 'How do you do?' or 'What's crack-a-lackin', homie'?" Then he talks about how he watched all of Take-2 TV's shows in preparation for the case, and his personal favorite was "Mr. Retinz Goes to Burger Barn." He decided to go check it out himself and recommends the jalapeno jack cheddar burger. Athena points out that the visual of Nahyuta standing in line at a burger joint is a strange one.
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here's mine

6-1 - 3:51
6-2 - 5:17
6-3 - 7:32
6-4 - 3:36
6-5 - 11:04
6-6 - 4:41
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Has WolfOfLight finished AA6 already
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LeonhartFour posted...

Well, it's because even when you beat him, he still acts like he won. I guess in his own mind he did. Retinz has a tough alibi to break, and you don't really nail him with any direct evidence. Apollo's deductions are sound and I think they're convincing enough, but it's certainly an unconventional ending to a case.

When you put it this way, I'm reminded of 4-4's ending. It's immensely unsatisfying when you can't nail the villain with a great piece of evidence/one definitive moment. It also feels really imbalanced that Retinz only gets two testimonies, total, whereas we spend so long going through Bonny/Betty. 6-2 (well, all the 3DS cases, I'd say) has problems with balance in general, I think.

LeonhartFour posted...

Oh right, I forgot to mention Nahyuta's best moments in the case. When Retinz hands him his business card, Nahyuta is like, "Ah, I've familiarized myself with this custom and the appropriate replies to it, such as 'How do you do?' or 'What's crack-a-lackin', homie'?" Then he talks about how he watched all of Take-2 TV's shows in preparation for the case, and his personal favorite was "Mr. Retinz Goes to Burger Barn." He decided to go check it out himself and recommends the jalapeno jack cheddar burger. Athena points out that the visual of Nahyuta standing in line at a burger joint is a strange one.

My favorite part of Nahyuta as an actual character (beyond his animations - of which the rosary-toss is the best) - that aside from being a jerk, he genuine seems to love learning. His funniest moment in 6-4 is the loooong recitation of Time Soba.
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6-2's biggest flaw is Retinz. he's like this master class annoying internet troll that should be satisfying to take down and it's just not, at all.
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i like retinz the character a lot (as well as his internet troll-y tactics). he's only an issue insofar as his takedown is unsatisfactory... but for a character like this, that is pretty important

it's compounded by the fact that the case is a grind when it doesn't really have to be that way - a two-day setup of the same length (6 hours) would probably have made it much more palatable
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also completely not the right topic, but i haven't watched any of 24 legacy but i'm planning to now that the season has ended

without any spoilers: good y/n?
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I just finished 6-3.

Wow... uh, that ending got to me more than it should have.
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it's not great. I think there's one aspect that will completely kill it for you, knowing you as I do.

but it's okay. I had fun with it but I'm the type to enjoy anything I've already invested in. if season 9 wasn't offensive to you, this should be okay.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

reposting my prediz and paging @Zyxyz0 about archiving?

I already added topic 4 to the archive last night!
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LeonhartFour posted...

Oh right, I forgot to mention Nahyuta's best moments in the case. When Retinz hands him his business card, Nahyuta is like, "Ah, I've familiarized myself with this custom and the appropriate replies to it, such as 'How do you do?' or 'What's crack-a-lackin', homie'?" Then he talks about how he watched all of Take-2 TV's shows in preparation for the case, and his personal favorite was "Mr. Retinz Goes to Burger Barn." He decided to go check it out himself and recommends the jalapeno jack cheddar burger. Athena points out that the visual of Nahyuta standing in line at a burger joint is a strange one.

Yesssss, so good. I also love the fact that Nahyuta is just a complete nerd with researching. It really fleshes out some humanity for him and gives him a neat little quirk that the other prosecutors don't have.

I haven't really been keeping up with this topic as much as I should, but christ, SoJ is going to be a monster in time. With DD being that close to AAI2 in time and 6-2 being this long, does SoJ have a chance of surpassing 40 hours?
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I don't think AA6 is going to run quite that long, though I could be wrong. 6-5 will crush every other case in length, and 6-3 is fairly long as well, but 6-4 is shortish (though it might be a bit longer than anticipated - once Uendo gets on the stand, he's there for the long haul. he might be one of the witnesses on the stand for the longest length of time) and 6-6 isn't very long for a standard length case.

my prediction clocks in at around 39 hours, but 6-3, 6-4, and 6-5 could each run at least 20 minutes over my latest prediction, and i wouldn't be surprised (and that would put us over 40)

incidentally, without 6-6, my prediction would put AA6... right near AA5 and AAI2, actually!
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Zyxyz0 posted...

I already added topic 4 to the archive last night!

a hero

transcience posted...

it's not great. I think there's one aspect that will completely kill it for you, knowing you as I do.

but it's okay. I had fun with it but I'm the type to enjoy anything I've already invested in. if season 9 wasn't offensive to you, this should be okay.

the last line there is promising to me - season 9 wasn't 24 at its best, but it was still reasonably fun. i think it'll help going in with no expectations. jack bauer is such a strong character at his peak that seeing him anywhere sub-jack bauer levels results in disappointment. but without him, the pressure is off!
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well, the lead is really dissonant because he's kind of unlikable in a way whereas Bauer carried that show when the plot couldn't. it's a weird adjustment.
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I can't do 24 without Jack Bauer

Like, what's the point
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But isn't Homeland really good and by the same people?
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homeland isn't as good as 24. it's got one and a half incredible seasons, followed by one and a half seasons that are worse than 24 when it's not good

haven't seen S4 or S5 and not overly psyched to
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SeabassDebeste posted...

It also feels really imbalanced that Retinz only gets two testimonies, total, whereas we spend so long going through Bonny/Betty. 6-2 (well, all the 3DS cases, I'd say) has problems with balance in general, I think.

Eh, the difference in time spent on the stand between the two isn't that large. The 3DS games just took a cue from 3-5 and spend a lot more time talking outside of cross-examinations than the OT did. Total number of testimonies isn't really indicative of length anymore.

TheRock1525 posted...

I just finished 6-3.

Wow... uh, that ending got to me more than it should have.

6-3 is a top ten case

fedorafreak posted...

I haven't really been keeping up with this topic as much as I should, but christ, SoJ is going to be a monster in time. With DD being that close to AAI2 in time and 6-2 being this long, does SoJ have a chance of surpassing 40 hours?

DD currently has the lead after two cases...! DD will have the longer 4th and 6th case, and the 3rd case should be relatively close. 6-5 is where SoJ will crush it.

Also they released a new DGS2 trailer yesterday if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOqR-y7jXKQ
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Obviously a relatively low number of testimonies doesn't stop a trial from being overwhelmingly long. I just think that cross-examination is the best mechanism of the series in general. A few 'present evidence here!' cues aren't bad, but in general it's more fun to build the case primarily around the testimony.
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Alright, finally caught up with everything! 5-6 is a great case, but I don't really have much to say on it since it's one of the few cases I only played once. You guys basically summed up all my thoughts, anyways! Team Rimes here.

6-1 is pretty good. Khura'in has a great introduction, Khura'in Judge is at his best, Gaspen is fricken' amazing, and I personally really like Andistandhin, even if he is a retread of a PLvPW gimmick. He's just too fun for me with his animations and his lines.

6-2 is a solid case that lacks polish. I dunno why it was pushed to be a one-day case other than SoJ is kinda stacked as it is in cases. Probably because they had a pretty good murder that they couldn't stretch to 2 days, so they made it a long 1 day case. In any case, I enjoy it. Bonny/Betty aren't exactly the greatest characters, but they certainly have fun animations, especially when together. Count me on Team Betty....but personally, I'll be Team Retinz! I don't really have the issues that other people have with him. Yeah, his breakdown is long and kinda silly, but I liked everything about him other than that breakdown. I think taking him down was pretty satisfying. Apollo and Trucy gets a lot of good quotes against him and both his Retinz/Reus personas are really entertaining.

Also, SoJ has a great soundtrack! I was surprised people have it on the lower end of AA soundtracks, but I guess that says more about AA's consistent quality than SoJ's soundtrack in particular.
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Team Bonny all the way! I do really like Retinz though. I ranked him really highly when we did SoJ writeups. Like I said before, his characterization honestly makes me a little uncomfortable, but I meant that in a good way. His Retinz persona hits hard in terms of how media can be used to crush people in the court of public opinion, especially these days. Then the Reus personality going hard after Trucy for the sake of her family history, for something she didn't even do, I can sort of relate to that from her end as someone who's had to fight and overcome some ugly family history myself. It's not as dramatic as that makes it sound, but a lot of people have to deal with demons they inherit from their family, and I can put myself in their shoes pretty easily.
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When you guys save 5-6 and 6-6, are those the DLC?
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TheRock1525 posted...

When you guys save 5-6 and 6-6, are those the DLC?

Yeah, we're referring to the DLC cases.
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honestly, i would seriously recommend against coming in this topic before you're caught up on the series

it's too plot dependent and good to be spoiled on
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Nah I don't care about getting spoiled on these games. It's never affected my ability to enjoy the games.
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SSBM_Guy posted...

Also, SoJ has a great soundtrack! I was surprised people have it on the lower end of AA soundtracks, but I guess that says more about AA's consistent quality than SoJ's soundtrack in particular.

Wait, people do? I mean, I dunno if I'd put is as high as DD or AAI myself (and I don't trust my DS emulator enough to know how I feel about it vs. AAI2) but the soundtracks have pretty clearly gotten on average better with time. I love the original trilogy, but the soundtracks don't compare to the more recent games IMO.
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Really? None of SoJ's music really sticks out to me. I don't care for it's version of Announce the Truth compared to DD, it's cross-examination themes, or it's cornered themes. And especially not the prosecutor's theme.
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SoJ's Cornered themes are great! DD's is one of the series' best, too, though. I like the Khura'in music a lot as well.
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