Current Events > An army of average Saiyans vs an army of average Viltrumites

(+) Yeah! (+)

On the one hand, just a couple viltrumites are able to destroy planets just by flying through them. And that was still pretty far from the best and strongest of them.

On the other hand, Planet Vegeta had 10x Earth's gravity; the Rognarr are shown to be VERY dangerous to viltrumites due to their planet having those exact conditions (iirc, that gravity is actually LESS)

And then we have bullshit like Omni Man escaping a black hole, or Buu arc hoku struggling with 10 tons per limb when he was moving mountains as a child.

Their powersets are too wildly inconsistent to really say.

That said, I'm giving it to the viltrumites. Worst comes to worst, the fight goes to space, or the planet is destroyed. Viltrumites can live in space long enough to survive. Saiyans can't.

SAlYAN posted...

That said, I'm giving it to the viltrumites. Worst comes to worst, the fight goes to space, or the planet is destroyed. Viltrumites can live in space long enough to survive. Saiyans can't.

This is what I settle on, I think. At the end of the day, they're all planet busters, so... Planets are likely being busted. Viltrumites win the war of attrition, not necessarily because of power, but because they can survive in space longer.

DrizztLink posted...

Shamelessly stolen from a feat topic:

I think people overlook this but man this eclipses so much of what any Saiyans have been portrayed to do imo. Though again, it's not a discussion of the averages. I think comparing the strongest btwn them is too hard (Invincible already having run through and even having a flash forward arc). Saiyans couldn't individually outmatch somebody like Jiren, and Jiren reminds me a lot of Thragg (lol just saw the wiki reference the similarity btwn these two). Thragg being the strongest Viltrumite before the 1v1 with Mark.

Mark could individually outmatch Thragg eventually, and future Mark is like several times stronger. Goku would straight up need a series or two runtime in its entirety before we can even flirt with the idea that the highest form Goku can match up against Prime Mark.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yeah, I'm on the side of the Viltrumites in this topic scenario but the high end of the DB universe is fuckin' busted.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

But that's been a flawed comparison since the beginning. First off, not all planets are made equal. Viltrumites can literally do insane travel, and they're destroying planets without relying on energy blasts. They're punching through a planet so hard that it explodes. Non-prime Nolan himself subdued an entire planet's surface without that much issue nor even a significant bit of his lifespan. This alone suggests it so that if by any chance they can tank or dodge a strong ki blast, they'll literally just run through Saiyans, who are vulnerable to bullets.

Like they can punch through planets, so how the fuck is a Saiyan tanking a single punch? It's just over the moment Viltrumites catch up to them. CQC is out of the question, and a straight blast isn't really the hardest thing to dodge.

For another thing, an energy blast to a planet has the advantage of interacting with a planet's core. Basically we can't even know for sure if Vegeta did all the work. All he had to do with reach the planet's core, so there are a multitude of ways where their skill set is specifically designed to be good at exploding planets. Comparatively, Viltrumites need to exert much more force to destroy a planet, but on a 1v1, they may be significantly superior

legendarylemur posted...

This alone suggests it so that if by any chance they can tank or dodge a strong ki blast, they'll literally just run through Saiyans, who are vulnerable to bullets.

Kid Goku tanked a surprise sniper round to the face. It hurt, but it didn't even slow him down. Goku in DBS took a scratch from a bullet, but he was deliberately lowering his power at the time, so as to not totally obliterate the normies harassing him.

DrizztLink posted...

Yeah, I'm on the side of the Viltrumites in this topic scenario but the high end of the DB universe is fuckin' busted.

This is where I'm at. If purely going by "Average army of Saiyans vs. Average army of Viltrumites," Viltrumites probably win.

But if we include the actual high end tiers, the high end Saiyans are so incredibly busted that they run away with it.

Guide posted...

Kid Goku tanked a surprise sniper round to the face. It hurt, but it didn't even slow him down. Goku in DBS took a scratch from a bullet, but he was deliberately lowering his power at the time, so as to not totally obliterate the normies harassing him.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/cf9482a6.jpg
This is probably why. I think this is damning. Viltrumites don't need Ki. They can literally fight as long as their brains don't get crushed or whatever. We've seen Viltrumites fight for like months and still retain the same toughness. Saiyans have a hard limit, and they lose the moment they run out of ki

StealThisSheen posted...

This is where I'm at. If purely going by "Average army of Saiyans vs. Average army of Viltrumites," Viltrumites probably win.

But if we include the actual high end tiers, the high end Saiyans are so incredibly busted that they run away with it.

Tbf, I think Broly is the only one who has any chance, and we've never seen how Prime Broly compares to Jiren. But again, in this topic, there was a feat done by Nolan, who isn't even the strongest, that no Saiyan in the entire world of DB has ever overcome. How do you perceive this? Saiyans don't really have that much interstellar feats. Their main feats are all contained within planets.

For another thing, Thragg was clearly defeated, and the Saiyans 3v1'd Jiren and won via a tournament rule, not by submission. The feats aren't as amazing as you might think. DB has produced other races who may have as much potential as a Saiyan if not eclipses it, and those races have interstellar feats.

Mark is a total jobber so a bunch of him would lose embarrassingly

Sephiroth_C_Ryu posted...

However, we also have Super, where a concealed alien weapon, likely the series' equivalent to magitechnology, can grievously injure Goku after he powers down. And this is, well, in Super, when Base Goku is far beyond "run of the mill Saiyan" even in his base form.

That was shitty writing as in Super Goku got scratched by a normal bullet. Whilst in Dragonball a sniper shot to the head of an unaware kid Goku didn't even hurt him.

Again, inconsistent writing, normal weaponry shouldn't hurt any Z warrior.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Again, inconsistent writing, normal weaponry shouldn't hurt any Z warrior.

In Invincible the old viltrumite fighting against Mark was using a knife in her hair and that stabbed into Mark. Battle Beast used a mace on Mark. War Woman also used a mace on Omniman.

Are they special weapons? I don't know. Maybe Goku got hit with special guns too.

ButteryMales posted...

In Invincible the old viltrumite fighting against Mark was using a knife in her hair and that stabbed into Mark. Battle Beast used a mace on Mark. War Woman also used a mace on Omniman.

Are they special weapons? I don't know. Maybe Goku got hit with special guns too.

Thing is, they have made it obvious when people use special weaponry, when they were aiming for Goku Black with that super powered gun to take out his earring (I think thats what they were aiming for).

Also if you want to apply the actual law of averages Goku and Vegeta having basically infinite power is gonna skew your average Saiyan as way stronger than Raditz.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Thing is, they have made it obvious when people use special weaponry, when they were aiming for Goku Black with that super powered gun to take out his earring (I think thats what they were aiming for).

Is Yajirobe's katana and Trunks' sword special? Freiza soldiers and Saiyans wore armor and both swords cut through them.

legendarylemur posted...

Saiyans have a hard limit, and they lose the moment they run out of ki

Ain't no one run has run out of ki to such an extent that they become so vulnerable, unless it's their big, final, all-or-nothing attack. If it goes to attrition, they'd lose, but it's unlikely the scaling matches so evenly that this happens.

legendarylemur posted...

But again, in this topic, there was a feat done by Nolan, who isn't even the strongest, that no Saiyan in the entire world of DB has ever overcome. How do you perceive this?

What feat, the lightspeed thing? They've been breaking that for a long, long time. Kid Goku was dodging lightning and lasers, and since then, there's been a conga line of people so fast that other people cannot react or even perceive their speed, and then the same thing happening to those fast people, and so on.

Vegeta, in his introduction, is a planet buster, and his strongest attack wouldn't even register on any of the top tier fighters in DBS. Hell, base Frieza was a planet buster too, over 25x stronger than Vegeta, and nothing he could do at his original final form would register. Cell was several times stronger than Frieza, and so forth. Buu might be able to do some minor damage, but everyone below that could easily nuke any planet, and their strongest attack would still be no-sold by the DBS endgame. DB ki attacks don't inherently scale size and strength in proportion, either, mostly because AT couldn't figure out how to make it make sense, and so he just kind of ignored it in order for them not to blow up the planet constantly.

tl;dr planet busting attacks aren't even the minimum for registering as a threat. The real threat is in hitting the actual planet, because they still need to breathe.

Saiyans

A lot of people ITT are ignoring the question was "average saiyan."

That's not goku. It's not even Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who was a Super Elite among saiyans. It's not even Nappa, who was also an elite, a general.

It's Raditz. Who, really, was on the HIGHER end of an average saiyan, seeing as he got assigned to Vegeta's elite corps.

ButteryMales posted...

Is Yajirobe's katana and Trunks' sword special? Freiza soldiers and Saiyans wore armor and both swords cut through them.

Yajirobe aimed for the tail and those are weak spots, though you could argue that Vegetas tail should be strong enough to endure, their tales have shown time and again to be easily removed.

Trunks is a super saiyan and has been shown to enhance his own sword through Ki.

Edit: I just remembered Krillin dragging the sword to a near death Vegeta to finish him off, so maybe again it's inconsistency or just the strength of the user. Doesn't explain the metal of the blade though.

SAlYAN posted...

It's Raditz. Who, really, was on the HIGHER end of an average saiyan, seeing as he got assigned to Vegeta's elite corps.

It was said he was a lower class Saiyan. I believe even Planet Vegeta has "mid class Saiyans". I mean look at Bardocks unit, they were pretty damn powerful.

Saiyans have ki blasts and ape mode.

SAlYAN posted...

A lot of people ITT are ignoring the question was "average saiyan."

That's not goku. It's not even Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who was a Super Elite among saiyans.

It's Raditz. Who, really, was on the HIGHER end of an average saiyan, seeing as he got assigned to Vegeta's elite corps.

Vegeta doesn't need protection. Raditz was just there as an errand boy and entertainment not for anything special about Raditz. Vegeta and Nappa both say he's low class and unspecial.

Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta were among the last known Saiyans alive at that point.

When the Saiyan civilization was still around as a whole average Saiyan was probably at least Raditz level or higher.

And that's strong enough to pack a good punch. Not too mention when they go Great Ape

ButteryMales posted...

Vegeta doesn't need protection. Raditz was just there as an errand boy and entertainment not for anything special about Raditz. Vegeta and Nappa both say he's low class and unspecial.

Yeah, this is what makes the "average" Saiyan tough to judge. At first, you THINK Raditz is a big deal, since he's made to feel special, but then even Nappa calls Raditz "low class," so it's hard to judge where the "Average Saiyan" baseline actually is.

Vs an army of gassy dogs. Everyone is weak to dog fart.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

it's inconsistency or just the strength of the user. Doesn't explain the metal of the blade though.

I agree it's inconsistency, I brought them up because Dragon ball does not explain if these weapons are special.

LinkDaLunatic posted...

Fighters in Dragonball were already moving too fast for the naked eye to see, and able to blow up the moon with energy attacks. And those are just humans in the Dragon Universe. Goku as a child was beyond normal human perception in terms of speed, and far beyond the normal human in power. And Raditz completely eclipses him.

Omni-Man also isn't Supes levels of invulnerable - he's shown taking damage often enough from other characters, and his speed feats, etc. are nothing special. So your average Viltrumite is, compared to a Saiyan, not very fast... and while they're pretty strong and could deal some damage, it would be nowhere near enough to close the deal.

Saiyans stomp, and they stomp hard. The average Saiyan outclasses the top Viltrumite in terms of both speed and power. The Viltrumites may be a threat in Invincible, but most characters in Invincible aren't anything special. Viltrumites are, for example, FAR weaker than the Kryptonians they emulate.

Saiyans don't even need to bring Oozaru into the equation for the win.

LeCh0nk posted...

Raditz was actually one of the weakest, and a low class warrior with a power level of only 1,200. Equivalent to a Saibaman. Nappa was an elite, and I think his power was around 4,000. Let's ignore Vegeta as an outlier progidy, at 18,000.

Average Saiyan is probably around 2k PL. This means absolutely nothing to the conversation at hand, but it's fun to think about.

But low class would be the "average"

The whole point of class systems tends to be thay a handful of elites hoard the power, wealth.

Probably like 80%+ Saiyans were roughly on par with or weaker then raditz.

Nappa has a power level of 8000.

Raditz is 1200

So if average is some point between them 2000 - 4000 for an average would be fair.

2Pacavelli posted...

Nappa has a power level of 8000.

Raditz is 1200

So if average is some point between them 2000 - 4000 for an average would be fair.

Except it wouldn't be.

Maybe this held weight in the old canon. But as of the new Broly movie, which rewrote a lot of what Saiyan society was, Raditz is no longer an "average saiyan."

Paragus was a Colonel, and as such a pretty damn high ranking saiyan. And his power level was 4000. The royal guards at the palace were 2000. There's no way in hell any average saiyan is pushing 2000-4000.

And even if they were, vegeta was the only confirmed planet buster among them, and he was 18,000 at the time.

All this to say, I think I correct myself. The average viltrumite would squash an average saiyan as easily as Omni Man squashed the Guardians.

Average Saiyan is 2,000-3,000 so way stronger than Early Z Goku, Piccolo, King Piccolo, and Powered up Roshi

Piccolo destroyed the moon with a regular ki blast at around a power level 322-400 (we don't know how much stronger he got that soon after the Raditz fight so I may be low balling)

StealThisSheen posted...

it's hard to judge there the "Average Saiyan" baseline actually is.

Logically it would be way below Raditz who's stated to be mid class and there's only 10 of those according to Toriyama. A ton of them end up being engineers/scientists/weak babies like Goku was supposed to be and that's gonna bring the average down a ton.

I think an average Saiyan would be those guys Dodoria wrecked.

GS4Life posted...

Average Saiyan is 2,000-3,000 so way stronger than Early Z Goku, Piccolo, King Piccolo, and Powered up Roshi

Except they aren't.

The bardock movie and the anime filler isn't canon, anymore. The average saiyan is more like 500-1000.

Hell, even IN the bardock movie, his squad was supposed to be exceptionally good; its the whole reason they were specifically targeted. and they were definitely in the 2000-4000 range, at best.

yeah but i like dbz more cuz i watched it as a kid, so saiyans win

Yeah the best way to say it the average Viltrumite would beat the average Saiyan, but the exceptional Saiyans are pretty fucking busted compared to the strongest Viltrumite. With that said, I haven't gotten far into the comics for Invicible yet so my opinion might change.

SAlYAN posted...

Except they aren't.

The bardock movie and the anime filler isn't canon, anymore. The average saiyan is more like 500-1000.

Hell, even IN the bardock movie, his squad was supposed to be exceptionally good; its the whole reason they were specifically targeted. and they were definitely in the 2000-4000 range, at best.

It's was always more that unionized Saiyan rebellion under the full moon was the problem over base Saiyans themselves
And for Freeza personally more of the off chance a Super Saiyan/SSJ God appears

I highly doubt the average was ever meant to be weaker than a Saibamen but AT (RIP) made some weird rectons who knows

lucariopikmin posted...

weak babies

Baby goku was a handful for Grandpa Gohan Roshi's student. They're definitely not weak babies.

Prestoff posted...

Yeah the best way to say it the average Viltrumite would beat the average Saiyan, but the exceptional Saiyans are pretty fucking busted compared to the strongest Viltrumite. With that said, I haven't gotten far into the comics for Invicible yet so my opinion might change.

Then you can't make that decision yet. The strongest Viltrumites are introduced like halfway through the story and are central to the story.
Guide posted...

Ain't no one run has run out of ki to such an extent that they become so vulnerable, unless it's their big, final, all-or-nothing attack. If it goes to attrition, they'd lose, but it's unlikely the scaling matches so evenly that this happens.

What feat, the lightspeed thing? They've been breaking that for a long, long time. Kid Goku was dodging lightning and lasers, and since then, there's been a conga line of people so fast that other people cannot react or even perceive their speed, and then the same thing happening to those fast people, and so on.

Vegeta, in his introduction, is a planet buster, and his strongest attack wouldn't even register on any of the top tier fighters in DBS. Hell, base Frieza was a planet buster too, over 25x stronger than Vegeta, and nothing he could do at his original final form would register. Cell was several times stronger than Frieza, and so forth. Buu might be able to do some minor damage, but everyone below that could easily nuke any planet, and their strongest attack would still be no-sold by the DBS endgame. DB ki attacks don't inherently scale size and strength in proportion, either, mostly because AT couldn't figure out how to make it make sense, and so he just kind of ignored it in order for them not to blow up the planet constantly.

tl;dr planet busting attacks aren't even the minimum for registering as a threat. The real threat is in hitting the actual planet, because they still need to breathe.

Ok, literally no fight in DB last even remotely close to some of the fights in Invincible lmao. I've read both and DB rarely ever continuously fight for even more than a day, and you're completely bullshitting me if you want to claim that the Saiyans portrayed in the story never ran out of ki. They run out of ki all the time and senzu beans literally save the day time and time again.

Also Goku himself has to rely on instant transmission, which btw long range ones cannot be used freely. He has to have been there first to visualize, and it takes concentration and isn't ever used combatively. Not being able to perceive their speed is already countered by Omni man able to react to the Flash knock off. Considering that is the only time anybody is ever not perceivable by Omni Man, a slightly above average Viltrumite, in the entire series, it's safe to say that when DB portrays them moving faster than human perception, it doesn't mean shit for Viltrumites.

I already addressed the planet buster shit that keeps getting brought up over and over. You guys are so obsessed with that shit, but again, the idea is that they destable the planet via either hitting the core or else. PUNCHING a planet and one shotting it is like literally several times magnitudes more impressive. Making a planet blow up by punching means they're literally punching so hard that the force disintegrates the planet. A saiyan can't fucking tank that wtf, they can't even tank the ki attack capable of reacting to a planet's core. These supposed planet buster ki attacks hit the planet at an angle all the time and do nothing to the planet.

You guys keep exaggerating the planet shit cuz that's all you got to say Saiyans are even within the same tier list of Viltrumites

And people are still ignoring the topic in general, which is pitting generic Viltrumites vs generic Saiyans.

Raditz would be considered just "above average" in most cases, so you have to assume the lot of other Saiyans on the planet were at his level or weaker. The big wig military ones and royal brats are the exceptions.

legendarylemur posted...

A saiyan can't fucking tank that wtf

War Women and The Immortal survived hits while both are weaker and slower than a Saiyan. The Guardians of the Globe could have won with a better strategy.

Viltrumites beat Raditz-level Saiyans, but when you start hitting the level of Vegeta and Kaioken x4 Goku, they get outclassed.

legendarylemur posted...

I already addressed the planet buster shit that keeps getting brought up over and over. You guys are so obsessed with that shit, but again, the idea is that they destable the planet via either hitting the core or else. PUNCHING a planet and one shotting it is like literally several times magnitudes more impressive. Making a planet blow up by punching means they're literally punching so hard that the force disintegrates the planet. A saiyan can't fucking tank that wtf, they can't even tank the ki attack capable of reacting to a planet's core. These supposed planet buster ki attacks hit the planet at an angle all the time and do nothing to the planet.

You guys keep exaggerating the planet shit cuz that's all you got to say Saiyans are even within the same tier list of Viltrumites

And again, only Vegeta the strongest saiyan in all their recorded history, was on a planet busting level. And at a PL of 18k, he was almost double King Vegeta, who was in second place.

The average saiyan was nowhere NEAR planet-busting level. Y'all need to stop using vegeta as the benchmark. Raditz is the benchmark. At best.

Wait viltrumites have planet busting punches?? Omg that's crazy

Ratchetrockon posted...

Wait viltrumites have planet busting punches?? Omg that's crazy

Yeah. They'll straight up just fly right through the center and collapse the whole thing.

Saiyans, because they look cooler

SAlYAN posted...

Yeah. They'll straight up just fly right through the center and collapse the whole thing.

Damn. That's like God of Destruction level in the manga

legendarylemur posted...

Ok, literally no fight in DB last even remotely close to some of the fights in Invincible lmao. I've read both and DB rarely ever continuously fight for even more than a day, and you're completely bullshitting me if you want to claim that the Saiyans portrayed in the story never ran out of ki. They run out of ki all the time and senzu beans literally save the day time and time again.

Also Goku himself has to rely on instant transmission, which btw long range ones cannot be used freely. He has to have been there first to visualize, and it takes concentration and isn't ever used combatively. Not being able to perceive their speed is already countered by Omni man able to react to the Flash knock off. Considering that is the only time anybody is ever not perceivable by Omni Man, a slightly above average Viltrumite, in the entire series, it's safe to say that when DB portrays them moving faster than human perception, it doesn't mean shit for Viltrumites.

I already addressed the planet buster shit that keeps getting brought up over and over. You guys are so obsessed with that shit, but again, the idea is that they destable the planet via either hitting the core or else. PUNCHING a planet and one shotting it is like literally several times magnitudes more impressive. Making a planet blow up by punching means they're literally punching so hard that the force disintegrates the planet. A saiyan can't fucking tank that wtf, they can't even tank the ki attack capable of reacting to a planet's core. These supposed planet buster ki attacks hit the planet at an angle all the time and do nothing to the planet.

You guys keep exaggerating the planet shit cuz that's all you got to say Saiyans are even within the same tier list of Viltrumites

You're still just talking about Dragonball right? Not late Z or Super?

Ratchetrockon posted...

Damn. That's like God of Destruction level in the manga

God of Destruction level is erasing the whole universe, heaven and hell in a normal fist exchange.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

God of Destruction level is erasing the whole universe, heaven and hell in a normal fist exchange.

Dude I forgot about that tbh. I just remember champa and beerus busting through rows of planets casually with just fists lol...

SpiritSephiroth posted...

God of Destruction level is erasing the whole universe, heaven and hell in a normal fist exchange.

Actually Beerus wasn't going all out and could control his God Ki by destroying it. It was all Super Saiyan God Goku killing the Universe, heaven, and hell.