Current Events > "I consciously add as much diversity as I can to my writing"

(+) Yeah! (+)

Here's a question: can tokenism be beneficial or are only fleshed-out, sincerely written characters of benefit to diversity and inclusion? Disregarding the argument that Shakespearian writing is expected of members of minority groups. We're just talking baseline minor characters.

If your story has two scenes which take place at a doctor's office, there's no harm in making the doctor a member of an underrepresented group. But if you didn't originally intend to have those scenes, is it worth inventing them just to add a two-scene character for a little more diversity?

tokenism is based as hell, obviously a well written character is better or whatever but like. do i really give a shit about the differentiation there? no, not really

FortuneCookie posted...

Here's a question: can tokenism be beneficial or are only fleshed-out, sincerely written characters of benefit to diversity and inclusion? Disregarding the argument that Shakespearian writing is expected of members of minority groups. We're just talking baseline minor characters.

If your story has two scenes which take place at a doctor's office, there's no harm in making the doctor a member of an underrepresented group. But if you didn't originally intend to have those scenes, is it worth inventing them just to add a two-scene character for a little more diversity?

I don't think anyone would call a minor bit player a token character but it does bring up an interesting point about different types of minorities. If you have a random doctor in a scene I don't think anyone would bat an eye if they were a woman or a black person. That's totally normal and inconsequential. But a lot of things recently have started having "Hi, I'm gay" characters which comes off as really grating, but there's not really a great way to indicate a character is gay without them directly telling the audience. You get your minority points either way but with a... non-visual minority you have to take active steps to include it instead of just casting a certain person. So what is the best way to naturally present a gay person in this kind of situation?

FortuneCookie posted...

Here's a question: can tokenism be beneficial or are only fleshed-out, sincerely written characters of benefit to diversity and inclusion? Disregarding the argument that Shakespearian writing is expected of members of minority groups. We're just talking baseline minor characters.

If your story has two scenes which take place at a doctor's office, there's no harm in making the doctor a member of an underrepresented group. But if you didn't originally intend to have those scenes, is it worth inventing them just to add a two-scene character for a little more diversity?

Is that really tokenism? Only ever heard that in a negative context, but I can't see anything wrong with this. Like, unless you're deep south, it'd be weird not to have at least a few minorities even in extremely white places.

specialkid8 posted...

But a lot of things recently have started having "Hi, I'm gay" characters which comes off as really grating,

What are some recent examples of this?

how do yall feel about stuff like blaxploitation when that was a very popular thing?

lolife67 posted...

What are some recent examples of this?

I can't think of any specific examples because they're such minor things. I don't keep track of them. But Doctor Who has done it quite a lot since the Moffat era.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

how do yall feel about stuff like blaxploitation when that was a very popular thing?

It's fine and has it's place considering the time it was made. However, we've moved past that and don't need all media with POCs to be so stereotypical.

specialkid8 posted...

I can't think of any specific examples because they're such minor things. I don't keep track of them. But Doctor Who has done it quite a lot since the Moffat era.

So then it doesn't sound like it's "a lot" or anything to be concerned about since it's so minor, if it even happens at all.

specialkid8 posted...

I can't think of any specific examples because they're such minor things. I don't keep track of them. But Doctor Who has done it quite a lot since the Moffat era.

"This is happening a lot and it's annoying. But also I can't actually give any examples."

So is it either not happening "a lot," or is it not actually annoying, to explain why you can't give examples?

lolife67 posted...

So then it doesn't sound like it's "a lot" or anything to be concerned about since it's so minor, if it even happens at all.

Why can y'all only respond in gotcha statements instead of having a fucking discussion? Grow up.

specialkid8 posted...

Why can y'all only respond in gotcha statements instead of having a fucking discussion? Grow up.

They tried to have a discussion by asking you for examples and you couldn't give any, so, uh... How were they supposed to have a discussion?

Not mentioning who the quote is from makes me think it is either from you or some nobody on twitter who probably doesn't have the skill to get their work out there in the first place.

Not trying to put anyone on the spot, but asking for examples of an alleged trend is always a catch-22.

If a person fails to come up with an example -- or if they come up with one or two examples, but fail to cite the exact episode, chapter, or scene -- then it isn't even a thing; let alone a trend. If a person comes up with two examples, and can properly cite them, they're isolated incidents. If a person comes up with three or more examples, and can properly cite the exact scene and context within a given work, the fact that they would document multiple specific examples of this trend means that they're watchdogs actively sniffing out something to be upset over. People don't typically have a photographic memory for things or catalogue everything that annoys them.

At no point is a trend actually a trend. Or, if a trend is acknowledged, the goalpost moves from proving that it is a trend to explaining why anyone should be bothered with the trend. And it's not just about issues related to social progress. It could be about anything. It could be about comic book characters becoming increasingly dark and meanspirited. Post #7 is "Do you have proof of this?" and post #11 is "Well, you can go back to watching 70s Superman movies if modern superheroes are 2 edgy 4 you."

I'm not trying to defend or attack anyone specifically. It's just a recurring issue that I've seen anytime a burden of proof is requested.

-BrokenSpiral- posted...

Not mentioning who the quote is from makes me think it is either from you or some nobody on twitter who probably doesn't have the skill to get their work out there in the first place.

thats ok ur allowed to be wrong about things

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Not everyone carefully calculates their posts dude

I treat this place like the group chat with my mates and say whatever comes to my head, assuming everyone knows I don't have horrible intentions. it's to generate discussion, not to get into a fight.

My fault for assuming people I don't know would be cool with that style of communication though. Everyone has their own style

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Oh and fwiw(might make at least one person empathise a bit) I was very stoned at 2am last night when making these posts

Oh dont worry about that, most people dont actually care. People getting offended that you talking about a cowboy setting black and white people co-existing as if racism never existed arent worth convincing. Maybe I had seen it before but still dumb founded to relearn it took 100 frigging years to give black people equal rights after abolishing slavery. But anyhow, the game is fantasy and can be written however.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Not everyone carefully calculates their posts dude

I treat this place like the group chat with my mates and say whatever comes to my head, assuming everyone knows I don't have horrible intentions. it's to generate discussion, not to get into a fight.

My fault for assuming people I don't know would be cool with that style of communication though. Everyone has their own style

Did you forget to change accounts?

specialkid8 posted...

Why can y'all only respond in gotcha statements instead of having a fucking discussion? Grow up.

You can't be serious? You brought it up and made it central to your point. Me asking for examples then pointing out your lack of any is telling isn't me being childish.

You want an example? Look at literally any Disney movie from the past decade. People have actively been calling them out for it. They throw in a single line saying a character is gay so they can get their brownie points and cut it out for the Chinese market. My post was not about whether it's a thing or not. It is a thing. My post was about whether or not people think it's proper and legitimate representation and what would be a better option. Stop trying to make everything an argument and everyone you don't like a nazi.

lolife67 posted...

Did you forget to change accounts?

You can't be serious? You brought it up and made it central to your point. Me asking for examples then pointing out your lack of any is telling isn't me being childish.

You are so needlessly combative.

specialkid8 posted...

You want an example? Look at literally any Disney movie from the past decade. People have actively been calling them out for it. They throw in a single line saying a character is gay so they can get their brownie points and cut it out for the Chinese market. My post was not about whether it's a thing or not. It is a thing. My post was about whether or not people think it's proper and legitimate representation and what would be a better option. Stop trying to make everything an argument and everyone you don't like a nazi.

I don't know Disney films that well, but I can't recall anything like that.

But people will complain if a character mentions they are gay once; they'll also complain if being gay 'is their whole personality'.

I dunno why one mention would be so objectionable anyway. We're back to the point where straight is the default setting, and if you want a character to be gay, you better start jumping through hoops to justify that. Why? Why do minority characters have to continually account for their existence?

Imagine getting so upset over throw away lines. Wonder if they get upset if a scene is the same but het?

I diversify as much as I can even though its a statistical unlikelihood in my country. I try to represent many ethnicities and I always include LGBT. Guess you could call this an agenda but I dont see anything wrong with it.

specialkid8 posted...

You want an example? Look at literally any Disney movie from the past decade. People have actively been calling them out for it. They throw in a single line saying a character is gay so they can get their brownie points and cut it out for the Chinese market. My post was not about whether it's a thing or not. It is a thing. My post was about whether or not people think it's proper and legitimate representation and what would be a better option. Stop trying to make everything an argument and everyone you don't like a nazi.

I didn't call you or anyone else a Nazi, so stop trying to play victim lol you made a claim and have yet to back it up. That's on you. Continuing to insist something is happening when you have ZERO evidence of it is wild, though.

And your Disney example isn't even what we were discussing. You said there are characters where their only trait is talking about being gay and nothing more. Yet haven't listed even one example.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

You are so needlessly combative.

How so? The post you responded to was addressing someone else. Asking if you're their alt is perfectly reasonable. But now I'm starting to believe it since you like playing victim as much as the other poster.

ai123 posted...

But people will complain if a character mentions they are gay once; they'll also complain if being gay 'is their whole personality'.

I dunno why one mention would be so objectionable anyway. We're back to the point where straight is the default setting, and if you want a character to be gay, you better start jumping through hoops to justify that. Why? Why do minority characters have to continually account for their existence?

Exactly! It's so laughable. A character having a same sex relationship shouldn't have to prove why they are allowed to exist. They simply are.

lolife67 posted...

How so? The post you responded to was addressing someone else. Asking if you're their alt is perfectly reasonable. But now I'm starting to believe it since you like playing victim as much as the other poster.

Keep going down the alt path. The level of delusion is making me feel better about myself

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Keep going down the alt path. The level of delusion is making me feel better about myself

Glad I could help?

lolife67 posted...

Exactly! It's so laughable. A character having a same sex relationship shouldn't have to prove why they are allowed to exist. They simply are.

And it is a standard not held in reverse. If a man is allowed to mention his wife back home he is allowed to mention his husband.

But the latter needs to be better for reasons.

GranAures posted...

And it is a standard not held in reverse. If a man is allowed to mention his wife back home he is allowed to mention his husband.

But the latter needs to be better for reasons.

How many times have we seen dialogue such as this between two males:

A: You married?
B: Yeah, been with my wife five years now/she left me/she died/haven't found the right woman yet.

Apropos of nothing, other than basic character building/background. No one objects to this.

You change that to:

A: You married?
B: yeah, been with my husband five years/he left me/he died/haven't found the right man yet

And people will screech about shoehorning and forced diversity.

Why?

specialkid8 posted...

You want an example? Look at literally any Disney movie from the past decade. People have actively been calling them out for it. They throw in a single line saying a character is gay so they can get their brownie points and cut it out for the Chinese market. My post was not about whether it's a thing or not. It is a thing. My post was about whether or not people think it's proper and legitimate representation and what would be a better option. Stop trying to make everything an argument and everyone you don't like a nazi.

Who are they getting brownie points from, exactly? The only time I EVER see anyone make a big deal out of it is when the anti-woke chuds need something to bitch about.

specialkid8 posted...

Why can y'all only respond in gotcha statements instead of having a fucking discussion? Grow up.

LMAO is this a serious post? You made a claim, people asked for examples, which is perfectly reasonable, and you throw this little shitfit instead.

Someone does need to do some growing up for sure. And you still haven't managed to actually provide examples!

Did halo literally forget to switch alts there, and once caught, went from "I hope people don't hate me" to "I was right to hate this place?"

deoxxys posted...

Maybe I had seen it before but still dumb founded to relearn it took 100 frigging years to give black people equal rights after abolishing slavery.

Arguably, they still don't.

DnDer posted...

Arguably, they still don't.

But media roles are a huge ask. Can't really be sure if they deserve them yet. /s

Murphiroth posted...

And you still haven't managed to actually provide examples!

Best I can figure is he means things like the Lightyear kiss. AKA: absokute nothing burgers that homeslices bitched about because it was two women.

HashtagSEP posted...

Did halo literally forget to switch alts there, and once caught, went from "I hope people don't hate me" to "I was right to hate this place?"

Yes. Yes they did lol

lolife67 posted...

Yes. Yes they did lol

Okay this is ridiculous now. Me and this dude aren't alts, I just defended him(shock, horror) because I can see where he's coming from

I'll make it a little simpler for you this time since it went over your head before. You're literally delusional if you truly think otherwise.

HashtagSEP posted...

Did halo literally forget to switch alts there, and once caught, went from "I hope people don't hate me" to "I was right to hate this place?"

Mad take bro. You're a detective

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Mad take bro. You're a detective

You said, and I quote:

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I treat this place like the group chat with my mates and say whatever comes to my head, assuming everyone knows I don't have horrible intentions. it's to generate discussion, not to get into a fight.

My fault for assuming people I don't know would be cool with that style of communication though. Everyone has their own style

Implying you were the one that said it. So, uh...?

@haloiscoolisbak

Not everyone carefully calculates their posts dude

I treat this place like the group chat with my mates and say whatever comes to my head, assuming everyone knows I don't have horrible intentions. it's to generate discussion, not to get into a fight.

My fault for assuming people I don't know would be cool with that style of communication though. Everyone has their own style

I get that, but that is why I go into say a more lax thread like post whatever where I can show a scan from a 1991 comic without reason.

HashtagSEP posted...

You said, and I quote:

Implying you were the one that said it. So, uh...?

I'm conscious of the fact me and this other dude had the same view and aware others might see that too?

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I'm conscious of the fact me and this other dude had the same view and aware others might see that too?

Sure, Jan.

Like I'm actually trying to take accountability for the way I posted and typical CE thinks it means I'm looking for a fight

HashtagSEP posted...

Sure, Jan.

I don't actually know how to prove you to I'm not this dudes alt. all I can say is 'please believe me"

I'm working on a couple novels that are both period pieces. One takes place in South Central LA in the early 90s and has three black main characters, four Hispanic mains, four Asian protagonists, and three white transgender characters. The other takes place in 14th century China and has mostly black characters.