Current Events > The writers are the reason so many people want Batman to murder Joker.

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Jokers portrayal in the comics has often been so dark and chaotic that it prompts a gut reaction from readers. Like no one is saying Wonder Woman should kill Cheeta and people hate furries, and unlike other villains who have clear motives like Lex Luthors greed or Sinestros hunger for power, the Jokers actions often seem senseless and cruel, to normal people. NOTE Lex did give his sister Cancer but still it is more normal thing for Joker. And this senselessness is why it is only Batman that fans have these debates about when it comes to his no kill rule.

There was a comic where there was this therapist helping Joker's victims, and in the end, Joker disfigures him. When readers see that, who else are they gonna blame but Batman? And what about that whole face-cutting nonsense a few years back? It's like, come on, writers, really?

So people should not blame the fans for wanting Batman to kill. Blame that they made Joker just the fucking worse and no one in their right mind would not put that guy on Death Row or hell the Phantom Zone.

cjsdowg posted...

it is only Batman that fans have these debates

Not true

If you're only against murder for people you don't think should be murdered you aren't actually against murder.

All you really want is better aim.

I blame the Gotham prison system for seemingly being unable to keep Joker incarcerated for any substantial amount of time without him escaping.

MyMainAccount posted...

If you're only against murder for people you don't think should be murdered you aren't actually against murder.

All you really want is better aim.

Or just better math skills. Joker dead is one death, Joker alive is a growing headcount.

Evening_Dragon posted...

Or just better math skills. Joker dead is one death, Joker alive is a growing headcount.

All you're saying is "I'm absolutely for murder of people I think deserve it".

MyMainAccount posted...

All you're saying is "I'm absolutely for murder of people I think deserve it".

This guy attacking medical professionals trying to help his victims. And seemingly no jail can hold him. What should be done with him.

I mean, if we use complete comic logic, nothing. He's even come back from being dead before, and shot before and sent off into a prison on another planet etc

Realistically, just make the prison more secure. He's just a man.

Batman's code is just a way for people to be fine with vigilantism, his illegal weapons/surveillance, and his other crimes that are also generally considered morally wrong.

In the Zach Synder Superman/Batman movies literally millions of people get murdered. Just all because Superman decided to come to this planet to protect it. Good job Superman.

I blame the readers. If they didnt like Joker, he wouldnt be kept alive.

MyMainAccount posted...

All you're saying is "I'm absolutely for murder of people I think deserve it".

All you're saying is you'd rather not consider the math for silly absolutes.

Guide posted...

All you're saying is you'd rather not consider the math for silly absolutes.

If you think the sanctity of a human life is silly we've come to an impasse.

Really its just math. Killing 1 person is better than allowing that 1 person to kill thousands. Its just the trolley problem, there was never any real reason allowing the trolley to kill 5 people was better than switching the tracks to make it kill 1

MyMainAccount posted...

If you think the sanctity of a human life is silly we've come to an impasse.

Yeah, the sanctity of not being blown up by a deranged mass murdering clown. Sometimes killing is the moral, necessary thing!

If he was currently on top of you, stranding you and you had a knife, sure.. that's self defense. But not in cold blood.

A moral society doesn't use death as a punishment. It cheapens the value of life.

We're going around in a circle here. I simply don't believe that confinement and rehabilitation are insufficient, and I think the costs of executing the wrong person are even more reason not to kill criminals.

You're making the argument that he's always going to escape, and that is by no means a given unless we're speaking narratively. Sure, a fictional character will escape if the plot demands it. I'd even go as far as to say seeing a fictional character get killed for being evil cam be cathartic since nobody is actually being hurt; but conversely I find the idea of Bruce Wayne, a fictional character sticking to their code and morals and sense of self to be also quite cathartic and pleasing. It's the reason he's a dark Knight and not just the Punisher.

Superman cares
Batman defends

It's the core of the modern take on the characters.

I don't understand why it's Batman's responsibility to kill the joker. There's lots of people who can kill him and would benefit from him being dead. Why specifically does Batman have to do it? Ok Batman's too nice. Why doesn't Azrael do it? Why doesn't Jason Todd do it? Literally anyone wants to step up here?

Tyranthraxus posted...

I don't understand why it's Batman's responsibility to kill the joker. There's lots of people who can kill him and would benefit from him being dead. Why specifically does Batman have to do it? Ok Batman's too nice. Why doesn't Azrael do it? Why doesn't Jason Todd do it? Literally anyone wants to step up here?

Batman have stopped both of those guys and others from Killing the Joker.

MyMainAccount posted...

If you're only against murder for people you don't think should be murdered you aren't actually against murder.

All you really want is better aim.

Seems applicable to various CE users and the death penalty

Batman plays out like a strawman argument in favor of the death penalty.

"What if there was a super-criminal that no prison could hold and he would go on murdering until he was killed? Would you agree with killing him then?"

MyMainAccount posted...

If you're only against murder for people you don't think should be murdered you aren't actually against murder.

All you really want is better aim.

Nah, F that. The Joker breaks out of prison/the asylum all the time and stays filling graveyards with the corpses of innocent people. He deserves to die.

MyMainAccount posted...

If you think the sanctity of a human life is silly we've come to an impasse.

That's exactly the thing, I do see the sanctity in it, which is why I have consideration for the numbers.

If you leave Joker alive, he will escape, as always, and more people will be killed, as always. By leaving him alive, you are letting more people die.

To keep it simple: What's your answer to the trolley problem?

MyMainAccount posted...

If he was currently on top of you, stranding you and you had a knife, sure.. that's self defense. But not in cold blood.

A moral society doesn't use death as a punishment. It cheapens the value of life.

We're going around in a circle here. I simply don't believe that confinement and rehabilitation are insufficient, and I think the costs of executing the wrong person are even more reason not to kill criminals.

You're making the argument that he's always going to escape, and that is by no means a given unless we're speaking narratively. Sure, a fictional character will escape if the plot demands it. I'd even go as far as to say seeing a fictional character get killed for being evil cam be cathartic since nobody is actually being hurt; but conversely I find the idea of Bruce Wayne, a fictional character sticking to their code and morals and sense of self to be also quite cathartic and pleasing. It's the reason he's a dark Knight and not just the Punisher.

Superman cares
Batman defends

It's the core of the modern take on the characters.

Its not death as a punishment. Its death as a preventative measure against more death

FortuneCookie posted...

Batman plays out like a strawman argument in favor of the death penalty.

"What if there was a super-criminal that no prison could hold and he would go on murdering until he was killed? Would you agree with killing him then?"

I would argue that isn't the case. Batman not killing the Joker is seen as a good thing. That despite the Joker's provocations, he won't let "one bad day" cause him to commit murder.

Rika_Furude posted...

Its not death as a punishment. Its death as a preventative measure against more death

That's semantics. It's still giving the government the right to decide who lives and dies.

Guide posted...

That's exactly the thing, I do see the sanctity in it, which is why I have consideration for the numbers.

If you leave Joker alive, he will escape, as always, and more people will be killed, as always. By leaving him alive, you are letting more people die.

To keep it simple: What's your answer to the trolley problem?

My answer is there's no point in living if you don't live for what you believe in. I'm not going to throw my humanity away for what "might" happen. I don't believe that in reality there's some kind of super criminal who will always escape. And in the case of the fiction, I like the story that Batman has principles better than one in which he kills the Joker. Have you considered reading about the Punisher?

Applying real world justice to comic book villains doesn't make a lot of sense.

In the real world, you can put someone in a supermax prison and they will never escape. In arkham, you may as well hand them the keys.

You can bet your ass that if it was literally impossible to keep el chapo contained, id be vouching for someone to end him.

Joker isn't a prisoner. He's a despot that is actively engaging in war.

MyMainAccount posted...

That's semantics. It's still giving the government the right to decide who lives and dies.

So its wrong of the government to say that its more important to save 1000 people than it is to save 1 person?

I don't want Batman to kill the Joker especially not in cold blood. I do think it's kind of ridiculous that he can get away with what he does in a corrupt shithole like Gotham without someone having enough of his antics and putting a bullet in his head.

ForsakenHermit posted...

I don't want Batman to kill the Joker especially not in cold blood. I do think it's kind of ridiculous that he can get away with what he does in a corrupt shithole like Gotham without someone having enough of his antics and putting a bullet in his head.

You don't go after Batman's boyfriend

There are tons of great Joker stories, people really want these to end?

A better question is why people blame Batman and not the justice system of Gotham.

Foppe posted...

There are tons of great Joker stories, people really want these to end?

They can reboot or do whatever for the million and 1th time, it doesnt really matter. They can have one saga where Batman just kills and then reset.

Rika_Furude posted...

They can reboot or do whatever for the million and 1th time, it doesnt really matter. They can have one saga where Batman just kills and then reset.

But we already got stories like that ...

Oh

i just assumed there wernt but I didnt actually like research or anything

Rika_Furude posted...

They can reboot or do whatever for the million and 1th time, it doesnt really matter. They can have one saga where Batman just kills and then reset.

They can do it in a separate world. Why would they kill Joker in the main universe and then kill that universe and start over? There is more to DC than Batman. Anyway, they have had Batman kill Joker before, in other worlds. Injustice doesn't count cause Superman did it that time. In the main one I can think of, Batman turned into a super villain after he killed Joker, and became a threat to the main comic universe. That Batman is now called The Batman Who Laughs

Zikten posted...

There is more to DC than Batman.

Someone should probably tell DC that lmao

MyMainAccount posted...

My answer is there's no point in living if you don't live for what you believe in. I'm not going to throw my humanity away for what "might" happen. I don't believe that in reality there's some kind of super criminal who will always escape. And in the case of the fiction, I like the story that Batman has principles better than one in which he kills the Joker. Have you considered reading about the Punisher?

So, the trolley problem. Do you switch the tracks or not? 1 person will die if you do, 5 people if you don't. Simple yes or no.

Outside of the Phantom Zone, I don't think you can keep Joker kept in one place for too long.

And even then, he's probably get Mr. Mxy to bust him out of there.

EyeWontBeFooled posted...

Outside of the Phantom Zone, I don't think you can keep Joker kept in one place for too long.

And even then, he's probably get Mr. Mxy to bust him out of there.

No matter what the writers do to Joker, they will always write a way out for him

One idea I had once was they could lock him up on Oa. The Green Lantern planet. Then he escapes and takes over the main power Lantern, the source of all Green Lantern power. That could be a fun story

Guide posted...

So, the trolley problem. Do you switch the tracks or not? 1 person will die if you do, 5 people if you don't. Simple yes or no.

The trolley problem is a completely different question; the trolley is already in motion, and your action only changes the amount of victims. Deciding to actively begin to kill someone because they could potentially kill someone later is not equivalent.

That said, I'll answer the trolley problem question. I'd switch the tracks, but I'd definitely feel like shit about it forever at best. This is if I happen to be on the scene of the incident. I'm not going to search out trolleys to toss at smaller numbers of people. The equivalent would be if I saw the Joker about to kill some people and I could stop him in the moment, but he would have to die. In that case, I'd do what had to be done. But if we assumed that I could try to stop him without killing him, I'd still prefer that. Then if we took it a step further I doubt I'd be able to stop the Joker because he's a super villain so yeah.

MyMainAccount posted...

The trolley problem is a completely different question; the trolley is already in motion, and your action only changes the amount of victims. Deciding to actively begin to kill someone because they could potentially kill someone later is not equivalent.

That said, I'll answer the trolley problem question. I'd switch the tracks, but I'd definitely feel like shit about it forever at best. This is if I happen to be on the scene of the incident. I'm not going to search out trolleys to toss at smaller numbers of people. The equivalent would be if I saw the Joker about to kill some people and I could stop him in the moment, but he would have to die. In that case, I'd do what had to be done. But if we assumed that I could try to stop him without killing him, I'd still prefer that. Then if we took it a step further I doubt I'd be able to stop the Joker because he's a super villain so yeah.

There's that's the point proven. Denying that Joker will kill is laughable; the trolley falling off the track is more likely.

It really isn't. One of them is coming upon a situation in progress and doing something, even if it sucks. One of them is looking at a guy and initiating murder from square one. And "the joker will always escape and always kill people" isn't a logical philosophy, it's an element of storytelling.

Either we're talking real life or stories, which one?

In real life, we don't have to go to killing people because nobody is a wizard who can escape any jail and kill with complete freedom.

In stories, I think Batman keeping to his code has an element or the romantic and mythic hero that's cool. If you think that's bad writing, I feel like maybe you don't really want to read Batman comics.

I don't know if someone told you otherwise and it was just never questioned, but there is no Joker in real life. Everything we know of the Joker is that he escapes, kills, and survives things that would kill him if you do not explicitly see him die.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting me? I didn't say he was real. I'm not sure why you're suggesting I did.

MyMainAccount posted...

Are you deliberately misinterpreting me? I didn't say he was real. I'm not sure why you're suggesting I did.

Either we're talking real life or stories, which one?

Talking about the Joker, who is not in real life.

My point is that the trolley problem is a philosophical question entirely separate from a fictional story, and your question seems to imply you want me to use logic in terms of real world morality.

In the real world, one doesn't have to worry someone will always escape, hence my answers and considering the question from someone who would actually be living in that world; sure, the Joker has escaped in the past, but in the world of the comic that's not a given for the future. We just know it is as people reading a story who know a popular villain will be reused.

If you don't want to use fiction to think about the real morality behind capital punishment and insisl he will always escape because that's how it's gone in the stories, you apparently want the scenario to go exactly how the comics go.. that's actually boring because we know what would happen in the stories if Batman killed the Joker.

Then my answer is, "He's been killed before and always comes back anyway, what's the point?" Batman breaks his cardinal rule and the Joker comes back next week. That's what happens in this scenario if we base it not on a thought experiment but on what will happen in the comics.

You're both failing to ask the real, important question.

Would it still be morally correct to stop the Joker by pushing a really fat guy on top of him?

EyeWontBeFooled posted...

Outside of the Phantom Zone, I don't think you can keep Joker kept in one place for too long.

And even then, he's probably get Mr. Mxy to bust him out of there.

He once tricked Mister Mxyzptlk to give him 95% of his powers.
It was bad...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0bc08f69.jpg

party_animal07 posted...

A better question is why people blame Batman and not the justice system of Gotham.

Because Batman has already decided that Gotham's justice system doesn't work. Otherwise he wouldn't be Batman. He can and has the means to make the place better. He chooses not to, but likes to believe that he does. In the end, he's just as ineffective as Gotham is.