Current Events > Would society survive without the concept of police?

(+) Yeah! (+)

probs

Laws are less than pointless when you've no means to enforce them.

Easily. If you're armed and not afraid to use it to defend life and property, you don't need pigs. Pigs are really only needed for paperwork, 90% of their "job" is writing bullshit citations.

Sure, but we'd all need to be armed and things would be settled in a more tribal manner.

So a return to the land of the lawless, aka the old wild west?

Because that worked out so great back then.

As much as people bitch about law enforcement, we still need them.

Law enforcement is a basic inherent concept of any civilized society.

No one worth listening to actually wants to get rid of police in their entirety.

Vigilantes will just take their place.

whitelytning posted...

Law enforcement is a basic inherent concept of any civilized society.

No one worth listening to actually wants to get rid of police in their entirety.

You do say that but it is an increasingly common opinion that people would rather have no law enforcement exist at all than risk having corrupted cops walk around.

There's been societies without police. Ancient Athens is one that comes to mind.

GhostFaceLeaks posted...

You do say that but it is an increasingly common opinion that people would rather have no law enforcement exist at all than risk having corrupted cops walk around.

Again, no one worth listening to is saying that.

The police system that majority of leftists criticize has only existed for like, 100-150 max years and was born from union busting and slave patrols. Civilization has existed for thousands of years without it, we can survive thousands more with a different system.

You need "a" way to enforce laws. In absence of the police, we generally get mob justice. It's up to you if you want to decide that's preferable. Society did survive with it for thousands of years so it's not impossible but I don't think people in those times lived that well compared to today.

No, and like any other profession, you have a few bad apples.

No.

I'm not going to take a side on the debate, but if you *did* hold the opinion that the police are corrupt as a whole and are little more than a licensed gang, they act as a deterrent. A lot of people don't commit crimes because they fear retribution from the law, and the police are the ones who enforce it.

Edit: and unfortunately it will never be perfect because as long as there are positions of power, there will be people who abuse it. Police are not exempt from this.

GhostFaceLeaks posted...

You do say that but it is an increasingly common opinion that people would rather have no law enforcement exist at all than risk having corrupted cops walk around.

A lot of people (correctly) want to completely eradicate the current system and replace it rather than rework what we have. But that's different than wanting no law enforcement to exist.

Paragon21XX posted...

Vigilantes will just take their place.

Which will just make things worse.

Thud posted...

Easily. If you're armed and not afraid to use it to defend life and property, you don't need pigs. Pigs are really only needed for paperwork, 90% of their "job" is writing bullshit citations.

There are laws that need to be enforced that arent just defending life and property crimes lmao

law enforcement could and should be better, but is 100% necessary unless you just really like the purge

No cops are better than corrupt cops, but having no cops is worse than having actually good cops. The system itself is corrupt and you need to burn it to the ground and rebuild.

BobanMarjanovic posted...

No, and like any other profession, you have a few bad apples.

Finish the saying

"A few bad apples ______"

Blue_Dream87 posted...

The police system that majority of leftists criticize has only existed for like, 100-150 max years and was born from union busting and slave patrols. Civilization has existed for thousands of years without it, we can survive thousands more with a different system.

The term and role of sheriff goes back to like the 5th century. And of course we know plenty of details how ancient Rome maintained public order

Society would get screwed so hard without them.
Ever seen cop body cam videos? One of the best things about those getting released is just how much it's opened up people's eyes to just how much they are needed, and how much cops deal with on society's behalf.

There's a reason when there's trouble, the vast majority--even those against cops--first instinct is to call cops and let them know. Because they do NOT want to deal with that crap.

And you're telling me you want to get rid of them and have the average joe deal with all that insanity... lmfao good luck with that.
If they're that violent, difficult, and combative with law enforcement, yeah... not much is gonna get resolved if it's just two average joes fighting without the threat of detainment and arrest looming over their head.

Blue_Dream87 posted...

The police system that majority of leftists criticize has only existed for like, 100-150 max years and was born from union busting and slave patrols. Civilization has existed for thousands of years without it, we can survive thousands more with a different system.

Law enforcement systems have existed for thousands of years.
If a more primitive form gets implemented (Which it likely would WHEN society realizes "Oh shit, we NEED to do something about all these people breaking the law so boldly without threat of law enforcement), it will likely be more brutal and physical than the modern police system for a good while, until we just get the modern police system again.

dae h8 copz

You need some sort of law enforcement and impartial conflict resolution, but it doesn't have to look remotely close to modern day policing.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

You need some sort of law enforcement and impartial conflict resolution, but it doesn't have to look remotely close to modern day policing.

Especially with

*Waves at Uvalde*

Shit like that

Society survived without the concept of police for most of the history of humans. What could not survive without the concept of police is the organization of our modern societies around capital and private property claims. Which is probably how people define society in their head in the context of a topic like this anyway

Like you cant just remove the police and expect an American city to continue operating like before you removed police without introducing some other police substitute.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

There are laws that need to be enforced that arent just defending life and property crimes lmao

Such as?

Remember when Seattle tried this with CHOP/CHAZ and they ended up having a Homicide Rate of 1,216 per 100,000 in like the few weeks they were active.

Never forget "Unplanned Donation"

Tyranthraxus posted...

You need "a" way to enforce laws. In absence of the police, we generally get mob justice. It's up to you if you want to decide that's preferable. Society did survive with it for thousands of years so it's not impossible but I don't think people in those times lived that well compared to today.

No. Society survived without police by using a feudal system during the middle ages. When it wasn't a feudal system, then it was imperialistic / military.

Dang. Lotta people think that society started in the last couple hundred years.

lydiaquayle posted...

No. Society survived without police by using a feudal system during the middle ages. When it wasn't a feudal system, then it was imperialistic / military.

Feudalism is not a method of enforcing laws. It's an economic system. You can have police and feudalism at the same time.

Tyranthraxus posted...

You can have police and feudalism at the same time.

If Knights and Samurai, etc. count as police, then the concept of police has existed since before the ancient Greeks and Egyptians. Even tribal justice had some form of 'police'. You'd have to go all the way back to Caveman, Nomadic tribes then.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It's an economic system

Just to be clear, in human history, an economic system is pretty much synonymous with the socio-political system, and how we view property rights is intrinsically tied with how we enforce laws.

lydiaquayle posted...

If Knights and Samurai, etc. count as police, then the concept of police has existed since before the ancient Greeks and Egyptians. Even tribal justice had some form of 'police'. You'd have to go all the way back to Caveman, Nomadic tribes then.

I'm not talking about knights and samurai. I'm talking about regular ass town watches but they've existed for far longer than knights and samurai and they can coexist with Knights and feudalism regardless.

They still didn't always exist.

Thud posted...

Such as?

Environmental regulation first off? Tax/money laws? Contrary to your belief, these arent punishable by death but still need to be enforced.

Unless you think that the solution to law breaking should just be to shoot people, which in that case you should love the current police system we have.

Even animals that live in groups have law enforcement.

Nobody wants to live in a lawless anarchy, not even criminals

Tyranthraxus posted...

I'm talking about regular ass town watches but they've existed for far longer than knights and samurai and they can coexist with Knights and feudalism regardless.

They still didn't always exist.

In that case, they've existed since villages and settlements started existing, which is pretty much most of human recorded history. Before that, we were just cavemen and nomads -- might as well be animals.

lydiaquayle posted...

Just to be clear, in human history, an economic system is pretty much synonymous with the socio-political system, and how we view property rights is intrinsically tied with how we enforce laws.

Knights and related shit in a feudal society didn't enforce laws. They enforced their liege lord's will. Laws were up to individual communities to implement and enforce. The nobles just weren't beholden to them.

There's always a need for protection or a 'lawman'. You cannot get around that. Before the modern police, you had sheriffs and patrolmen. Before then you had guards. Before then you had warriors and mercenaries paid to protect the people. Unless you want to live in a wild west where you're on your own, there will always be a need for police or 'lawmen'.

Tyranthraxus posted...

They enforced their liege lord's will.

AKA, the law.

lydiaquayle posted...

In that case, they've existed since villages and settlements started existing, which is pretty much most of human recorded history. Before that, we were just cavemen and nomads -- might as well be animals.

You're dramatically underestimating how much time we spent as nomads before building the first village. It's closer to 50/50. Not "most of recorded history"

lydiaquayle posted...

AKA, the law.

That's not what law is.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Knights and related shit in a feudal society didn't enforce laws.

I apologize, I don't mean knights. I mean guards, and sheriffs, or whatever they had.

Tyranthraxus posted...

That's not what law is.

In practicality, yeah, it is. Otherwise, why would vassals, fiefs exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism
a combination of legal, economic, military, cultural, and political customs that flourished in medieval Europe between the 9th and 15th centuries. Broadly defined, it was a way of structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour.

lydiaquayle posted...

In practicality, yeah, it is.

"Go subjugate the next fief over and bring me back 15 slaves" is not law.

Tyranthraxus posted...

"Go subjugate the next fief over and bring me back 15 slaves" is not law.

If people were enforcing it, then it's fucking law, dude.

"Do what I say, or you will face certain consequences."

law is when might makes right