Current Events > How the fuck is this ok? (Palestine protesters)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Solid_Snake07 posted...

im not the one throwing around the word genocide like its the new buzzword like a fucking moron

Extremist Zionist settlers (many of which aren't even from Israel) Driving Palestinians off their land is the textbook definition of genocide.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/holocaust-genocide-scholars-condemn-oct-7-hamas-massacre

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/press-release/mccaul-declares-hamas-committed-acts-of-genocide-crimes-against-humanity-war-crimes-calls-upon-state-department-to-determine-same/

I call your opinion and raise you genocidewatch.org and the white house.

Wow, a website that claims White South Africans are being genocided, and a Republican from Texas. Credible sources you got there.

DnDer posted...

If they were capable. They're not.

At scale, hamas is not capable of fulfilling a genocide. They instead employ terrorism and terrorists to harm Israel at every opportunity.

But it's not going to amount to genocide unless some major shift in political and military power occurs.

Current leadership in hamas, at least according to wiki (a couple weeks back, when this all started), has said they'd accept the '67 borders.

And they've walked back the language from their original charter saying it's a historical artifact, and they're not for the absolute and total extermination of the Jews anymore.

Both of which seem to be more generous (and almost "progressive") compared to what Israel has been saying in the last month about them.

Oh, so after failing at every juncture to actually initiate a genocide in Israel for the past few generations theyre gratuitous enough to accept the offer theyve spit on and slapped away multiple times?

How cool of them

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Did the sign say anything about Palestine? It compared Hamas to ISIS and called October 7th a genocidal event (which it was.)

If Pro Palestinian protestors want to be differentiated from Hamas supporters, this is the exact thing they should probably avoid.

But you are seeing it all over the place.

Would you have the same reaction if someone was holding up a White Lives Matter sign up at a Black Lives Matter protest?

Solid_Snake07 posted...

Oh, so after failing at every juncture to actually initiate a genocide in Israel for the past few generations theyre gratuitous enough to accept the offer theyve spit on and slapped away multiple times?

How cool of them

Sometimes a dog knows when it's beat, and Israel honestly should have taken the win and made the effort to establish borders the instant that went on the table.

Regardless of whether you think there should be negotiating or not, if you don't think that Hamas would agree to terms short of the expulsion/eradication of all Jews from Israel than you're just willfully deluding yourself.

At which point, you're tacitly admitting that you know that Hamas is using that as rhetoric, at which point we should be more honest about whether you truly believe the attacks were genocidal or are just using that language because Israel has been accused of genocide.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/holocaust-genocide-scholars-condemn-oct-7-hamas-massacre

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/press-release/mccaul-declares-hamas-committed-acts-of-genocide-crimes-against-humanity-war-crimes-calls-upon-state-department-to-determine-same/

I call your opinion and raise you genocidewatch.org and the white house.

Where are the signatures on the letter?

DnDer posted...

Sometimes a dog knows when it's beat, and Israel honestly should have taken the win and made the effort to establish borders the instant that went on the table.

or theyre not dumb enough to actually believe Hamas actually wants to be a peaceful neighbor

The world is a different place than it was 60 years ago. Egypt and Jordan dont want the headache

Anteaterking posted...

Regardless of whether you think there should be negotiating or not, if you don't think that Hamas would agree to terms short of the expulsion/eradication of all Jews from Israel than you're just willfully deluding yourself.

At which point, you're tacitly admitting that you know that Hamas is using that as rhetoric, at which point we should be more honest about whether you truly believe the attacks were genocidal or are just using that language because Israel has been accused of genocide.

Whether Oct 7 qualifies as genocidal is ultimately not the biggest issue here. It's literally just a debate about what specific word gets used to describe it.

It was an atrocity, whether or not it met the bar for "genocide".

And whether or not it met that bar, it does not justify Israel's actions since then, and anyone claiming otherwise or bringing it up irrelevantly is doing so out of support for Israel's own atrocities - which have long since exceeded Hamas's on Oct 7th - nothing else.

And unlike Hamas, where it's likely but uncertain, we can be 100% confident that Israel's intent is genocidal in nature.

Shame that people care more about a sign than Palestinian children getting bombed by Israel

Trumble posted...

Whether Oct 7 qualifies as genocidal is ultimately not the biggest issue here. It's literally just a debate about what specific word gets used to describe it.

It was an atrocity, whether or not it met the bar for "genocide".

And whether or not it met that bar, it does not justify Israel's actions since then, and anyone claiming otherwise or bringing it up irrelevantly is doing so out of support for Israel's own atrocities - which have long since exceeded Hamas's on Oct 7th - nothing else.

And unlike Hamas, where it's likely but uncertain, we can be 100% confident that Israel's intent is genocidal in nature.

Sure and normally I wouldn't even care about drawing such distinctions, but there's an organized effort by Israel for people to push "genocide" as the descriptor here and I think it's worth pushing back against it when you see it as it's an attempt to draw support for their own actions.

Smashingpmkns posted...

Shame that people care more about a sign than Palestinian children getting bombed by Israel

The people you're talking about don't "not care" about the latter; they support it.

Solid_Snake07 posted...

Oh, so after failing at every juncture to actually initiate a genocide in Israel for the past few generations theyre gratuitous enough to accept the offer theyve spit on and slapped away multiple times?

How cool of them

So theoretical genocide by Hamas is the same as actual genocide by Zionist settlers, right?

Trumble posted...

The people you're talking about don't "not care" about the latter; they support it.

You right

lderivedx posted...

Where are the signatures on the letter?

He actually believes a letter sent by a Republican senator to Anthony Blinken is the same as a White House declaration.

Anteaterking posted...

Sure and normally I wouldn't even care about drawing such distinctions, but there's an organized effort by Israel for people to push "genocide" as the descriptor here and I think it's worth pushing back against it when you see it as it's an attempt to draw support for their own actions.

IMO the right way to respond to that is pointing out that regardless of what Oct 7th was or wasn't, it does not justify Israel's actions against innocent civilians since (or prior to, for that matter) the attack.

Think about it like this. I could commit the worst crime in human history, and no matter how bad it was, it would not justify one of the victims attacking a completely different person in response. That's all that matters here. Debating whether my crime was truly as bad as it seemed is just a red herring.

Fenriswolf posted...

He actually believes a letter sent by a Republican senator to Anthony Blinken is the same as a White House declaration.

Even if it is, I'm not sure why I'd take what the White House says on the matter as a fact given everything the US has facilitated in the past and lied about recently.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Would you have the same reaction if someone was holding up a White Lives Matter sign up at a Black Lives Matter protest?

How is that even remotely the same? Did a massacre of over a thousand people precede the BLM protests? Im having trouble trying to figure out exactly how to make this comparison work, but imagine at a white lives matter protest, someone held up a sign that said Derek Chauvin = murderer and the people there tried to take the sign down.

Thats the closest that Ive gotten. Because its beyond the pale to not acknowledge that even if you arent a fan of BLM for whatever reason, what those cops did was an act of murder. Just like even if you are god forbid a Palestinian mourning the loss of someone closest to you because of the current calamity, and youre the MLK of the Pro Palestine movement, you should still be able to recognize that Hamas actions that day were evil and did absolutely nothing to help you or your cause.

*I recognize the comparison isnt exactly the same. The Pro Palestinian movement isnt as ridiculous as the White Lives Matter movement is. But its the sign thats my focus, and in that way it kinda works.

Fenriswolf posted...

So theoretical genocide by Hamas is the same as actual genocide by Zionist settlers, right?

If Israel wanted to kill or expel every Palestinian it would have happened before you were in diapers. Which seems to be the aspect of this conflict that every Palestinian genocide type refuses to acknowledge. If the Palestinians agreed to lay down their weapons and live peacefully together thats exactly what would happen. If Israel were to do the same Hamas would absolutely kill every single Jew in Israel.

Solid_Snake07 posted...

If Israel wanted to kill or expel every Palestinian it would have happened before you were in diapers. Which seems to be the aspect of this conflict that every Palestinian genocide type refuses to acknowledge. If the Palestinians agreed to lay down their weapons and live peacefully together thats exactly what would happen. If Israel were to do the same Hamas would absolutely kill every single Jew in Israel.

Unless they want plausible deniability. Which it's abundantly clear is their strategy.

Solid_Snake07 posted...

If the Palestinians agreed to lay down their weapons and live peacefully together thats exactly what would happen.

Not remotely.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

How is that even remotely the same? Did a massacre of over a thousand people precede the BLM protests? Im having trouble trying to figure out exactly how to make this comparison work, but imagine at a white lives matter protest, someone held up a sign that said Derek Chauvin = murderer and the people there tried to take the sign down.

Thats the closest that Ive gotten. Because its beyond the pale to not acknowledge that even if you arent a fan of BLM for whatever reason, what those cops did was an act of murder. Just like even if you are god forbid a Palestinian mourning the loss of someone closest to you because of the current calamity, and youre the MLK of the Pro Palestine movement, you should still be able to recognize that Hamas actions that day were evil and did absolutely nothing to help you or your cause.

A better comparison would be a counter-protestor at a George Floyd rally holding up a sign claiming that a different person shot by police was a murderer, who actually was one but it was irrelevant to the protest at hand. There would be no reason for this other than thinly veiled support for police brutality.

Trumble posted...

Unless they want plausible deniability. Which it's abundantly clear is their strategy.

Thank god we have you here to see through the Jewish conspiracy. Jesus Christ, you people have no shame

Solid_Snake07 posted...

If Israel wanted to kill or expel every Palestinian it would have happened before you were in diapers. Which seems to be the aspect of this conflict that every Palestinian genocide type refuses to acknowledge. If the Palestinians agreed to lay down their weapons and live peacefully together thats exactly what would happen. If Israel were to do the same Hamas would absolutely kill every single Jew in Israel.

Like what the PLO is doing the in the West Bank? Oh wait the Zionist settlers are still there trying to take Palestinian land because their holy book said it's okay, while the IDF turns a blind eye.

Solid_Snake07 posted...

Thank god we have you here to see through the Jewish conspiracy. Jesus Christ, you people have no shame

What exactly do you think trying to conflate criticism of Israel's atrocities with anti-Semitism is going to achieve?

If enough people were to actually start believing it's a Jewish thing and not just an Israeli government/military thing, do you think it would make them less critical of it? Or, do you think it would just result in hatred towards innocent Jewish people? Much like what Israel is trying to get people to do by conflating Hamas with Palestinian civilians?

Of course, I'm sure you know damn well that the latter is the more likely outcome of the two.

Trumble posted...

A better comparison would be a counter-protestor at a George Floyd rally holding up a sign claiming that a different person shot by police was a murderer, who actually was one but it was irrelevant to the protest at hand. There would be no reason for this other than thinly veiled support for police brutality.

Thats the example I was trying to get at, thanks.

Why would they commit genocide on Palestinians while it's convenient to let them be second-class citizens for the cheap labor? Israel is having to import agricultural workers to replace jobs Palestinians used to fill.

I wish people wouldn't downplay this. There are a disturbing amount of people in this world that want the genocide and total destruction of Israel.

Ronaldo posted...

I wish people wouldn't downplay this. There are a disturbing amount of people in this world that want the genocide and total destruction of Israel.

Those people don't have power or influence in the US at least in the way that you're presenting it.

Im just wondering, why hasnt the Pro Palestinian movement coupled #ceasefire with #bringthemhome.

Seems like it would be an idea taken straight out of the MLK playbook of how to protest. I feel like they would gain some support from American Jews just by denouncing Hamas while shouting the Free Free Palestine slogan.

Its clear that the only end game of this situation has to be an actual two state solution that actually works. Does anyone know if that conversation is actually happening?

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Im just wondering, why hasnt the Pro Palestinian movement coupled #ceasefire with #bringthemhome.

Seems like it would be an idea taken straight out of the MLK playbook of how to protest. I feel like they would gain some support from American Jews just by denouncing Hamas while shouting the Free Free Palestine slogan.

Its clear that the only end game of this situation has to be an actual two state solution that actually works. Does anyone know if that conversation is actually happening?

I dunno, why hasn't the pro-Israel movement coupled #bringthemhome with #ceasefire?

And if you actually read MLK's writings, not the revisionist, romanticized version of him, he had plenty to say about liberals who engages in false balance and compromises, while claiming to support civil rights but criticizes its tactics as making them too uncomfortable.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

How is that even remotely the same?

Because they're both signs that are theoretically harmless and uncontroversial but are clearly used to try to derail and detract from the point of the protest. Let's not play dumb, we both know what kind of message the dude was trying to send.

Solid_Snake07 posted...

If the Palestinians agreed to lay down their weapons and live peacefully together thats exactly what would happen.

Demonstably false.

Anteaterking posted...

Those people don't have power or influence in the US at least in the way that you're presenting it.

These people have the power to murder or fund murderers.

FlyEaglesFly, do you consider the existence of a political Jewish state at any cost a core tenet of your Judaism?

ooger posted...

Active Posts: 8

TC still hasn't posted.

Very interesting considering the page he posted.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Because they're both signs that are theoretically harmless and uncontroversial but are clearly used to try to derail and detract from the point of the protest. Let's not play dumb, we both know what kind of message the dude was trying to send.

Being Anti Hamas isnt the same thing as being Anti Palestine. Stop trying to make it out to be.

Fenriswolf posted...

I dunno, why hasn't the pro-Israel movement coupled #bringthemhome with #ceasefire?

Because a ceasefire without the return of the hostages condemns them to captivity for god knows how long. Israel had to release a 1000 prisoners, some convicted terrorists, for one soldier last time. Imagine the price for 240 including children. If Hamas agreed to release all of the hostages right now for a cease fire, and Israel rejected it, then youd see a massive surge of anger directed at the Israeli government from Jews all over the world.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Being Anti Hamas isnt the same thing as being Anti Palestine. Stop trying to make it out to be.

"Being White Lives Matter isn't the same thing as being anti-Black Lives Matter. Stop trying to make it out to be".

Again, please stop playing dumb. I know that you know what the guy was doing.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Being Anti Hamas isnt the same thing as being Anti Palestine. Stop trying to make it out to be.

Says one of the people constantly claiming that being anti-Israel is the same thing as being anti-Jewish.

Anteaterking posted...

FlyEaglesFly, do you consider the existence of a political Jewish state at any cost a core tenet of your Judaism?

Im more of the school of thought where a political Jewish state is a necessity due to the fact that antisemitism remains a constant threat to the survival of the Jewish people. Its not a religious argument.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Im more of the school of thought where a political Jewish state is a necessity due to the fact that antisemitism remains a constant threat to the survival of the Jewish people. Its not a religious argument.

The state in question is not even the one with the largest Jewish population in the world. It's an actively colonialist genocidal state using Judaism as a cover for their actions, as far as government / military go. It's no different to alt-right nuts using Christianity or Hamas and similar groups using Islam.

lderivedx posted...

No it wasn't.

Wtf?
Hamas killed or took hostage every Israeli civilian they encountered.

Fenriswolf posted...

Extremist Zionist settlers (many of which aren't even from Israel) Driving Palestinians off their land is the textbook definition of genocide.

The Palestinians are basically going through today what the first nations in America went through in the 16th-18th centuries.

Pretty sure most of those people don't even know where Palestine or Israel is.

I'm glad demonstrations about this conflict are banned where I live.

mazingetter posted...

I'm glad demonstrations about this conflict are banned where I live.

What kind of fucked up place is that?

Trumble posted...

What kind of fucked up place is that?

Singapore. They have a habit of not granting permits for political demonstrations.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Yup.

lderivedx posted...

Why would they commit genocide on Palestinians while it's convenient to let them be second-class citizens for the cheap labor? Israel is having to import agricultural workers to replace jobs Palestinians used to fill.

Because the terrorist attack on the concert finally gave them an excuse to do openly and in one fell swoop what they've been doing by inches for decades.

They haven't even been second-class citizens. That would be an improvement from where they were before.