Current Events > "I'm not a liberal I'm a leftist"

(+) Yeah! (+)

._.

The unending quest to teach at least one conservative that in fact, the two terms mean different things and cannot be used interchangeably.

It makes sense. Nobody wants to be known as that one type of left-leaning person who complains about absolutely everything.

But we still want the freedom to complain about 80% of everything. <_<

Do academics even use those terms in serious discussion? Or do they actually address issues directly and individually instead of relying on sweeping labels?

Ill use myself as an example.

I support civilian gun rights in a limited capacity with background checks and mandatory training.
I support abortion and maternal care.
I support same-sex marriage.
I support universal healthcare.
I support holding police, corporations and the rich accountable.
But at the same time, I believe duty of care can be taken too far (e.g if you ignore a Caution Wet Floor sign and slip over, those consequences should be on you, not the premises).
I support prison reform and a focus on mental health and rehabilitation for offenders who genuinely want it.
I supported Australias the Voice campaign.
I am disillusioned with democracy but begrudgingly accept its still the least worst we have.

Am I a leftist? A liberal? Does my opinion on guns and self defence in general pull me a little toward the centre? Call me what you will. I dont need a label to explain myself.

Wait what's the problem with this distinction?

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

The unending quest to teach at least one conservative that in fact, the two terms mean different things and cannot be used interchangeably.

Socialism and communism too.

I mean first we need to teach them what those terms mean at all before we can start pointing out the differences.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Socialism and communism too.

I mean first we need to teach them what those terms mean at all before we can start pointing out the differences.

This is tough because when you use the term "teach" you're assuming that the receiving party is capable of learning but frankly it remains to be seen if that's even possible at this point

NoMeLx22x posted...

Wait what's the problem with this distinction?

Tankies.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Does my opinion on guns and self defence in general pull me a little toward the centre?

Once you go far enough left, you become pro-gun again.

wanderingshade posted...

Tankies.

I dont understand, do you think that because a person says this line, that makes them a tankie?

If so, you're not too capable of nuance are you?

ZMythos posted...

Once you go far enough left, you become pro-gun again.

Heh, thats what my friend says too. Good to see he isnt the only one.

Republicans have sold this lie that they are the side of personal freedom. Except theyre not. Theyre the side of their and the polices ability to abuse minorities with zero accountability. They are the side of employers can fire you for any reason and you should just work harder or be born rich.

Its the left that actually care about individual rights - as in, the right to not be stomped on because your skin is the wrong color. That isnt fascism. That isnt Dems are soft on crime and want to let black people rob uou! That isnt Dems are going to imprison you for using the wrong pronouns.

Yes, Ive seen people actually think these things.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Republicans have sold this lie that they are the side of personal freedom. Except theyre not.

Exactly, that's why they hate unions.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Do academics even use those terms in serious discussion? Or do they actually address issues directly and individually instead of relying on sweeping labels?

Ill use myself as an example.

I support civilian gun rights in a limited capacity with background checks and mandatory training.
I support abortion and maternal care.
I support same-sex marriage.
I support universal healthcare.
I support holding police and the rich accountable.
I support prison reform and a focus on mental health and rehabilitation for offenders who genuinely want it.
I supported Australias the Voice campaign.
I am disillusioned with democracy but begrudgingly accept its still the least worst we have.

Am I a leftist? A liberal? Does my opinion on guns and self defence in general pull me a little toward the centre? Call me what you will. I dont need a label to explain myself.

Broadly speaking, liberal, libertarian, anarchist and leftist are useful terms because they speak to absolute values. Conservative, reactionary, and populist are less useful terms, because they are always relative to something else specific in the society they are formed in, such as the difference in what is aimed at being conserved, or what is being reacted against (And how many things are called "populist" without actually achieving popular democratic support? It generally means appealing to some kind of grassroots sentiment, but what does that even mean when grassroots ideas can be planted by projects and owned media from billionaires).

Support for individual gun ownership would be a libertarian position (But it could morph into a leftist position if you specifically support workers being armed instead, for instance). A liberal can gun rights, there isn't anything anti-liberal about it, but they aren't really required to and the individual politics of it will vary depending on the state of the country that the liberal lives in. And the extent to which gun ownership threatens liberalism (For example, the threat of armed revolution by militia groups) can change how a liberal would view guns.

I mean, generally though, people have a mixture of various positions rather than a cohesive ideology because most people -aren't- academics and don't really have consistent theories of politics so much as gut feelings and ideas of self-interest.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Wait what's the problem with this distinction?

It's a reasonable distinction and what that I think people actually do legitimately draw, but I feel like most of the time "I'm not a liberal I'm a leftist" tends to be brought up in arguments against people on the right and it's generally just a precursor to both sides "agreeing" that liberals are bad but without any sort of additional movement on behalf of the right wing person.

It's like if someone said the Affordable Care Act sucks and you were like "Yeah, you're right" and your reasons are that it's a half assed stop gap measure from a Republican governor that generally doesn't accomplish what it set out to do and their reasons are because it creates death panels and if you can't afford healthcare you deserve to die. It would be perfectly reasonable from a leftist perspective to attack the ACA, but it just gets weird when you get chummy chummy with conservatives who hate it for a completely different reason who don't think your universal healthcare alternatives are any better.

Based thing to say

Dark_Arbron posted...

Socialism and communism too.

I mean first we need to teach them what those terms mean at all before we can start pointing out the differences.

Along with Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism.

I mean liberals in America are pretty much centrist if not center left. Generally they would say "I'm a progressive not a liberal" and not "I'm a leftist not a liberal." Because while both Liberals and Progressives are left of the center it's how far to the left that matters.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Along with Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism.

Heck we need to really get back to basics and teach them what hard work and income inequality actually look like.

MLK was right. Liberals are the ones pretending to care about social justice but hates radical change and are more concerned with appearing respectable and engage in tokenistic gestures that doesn't rock the boat.

Anteaterking posted...

t's like if someone said the Affordable Care Act sucks and you were like "Yeah, you're right" and your reasons are that it's a half assed stop gap measure from a Republican governor that generally doesn't accomplish what it set out to do and their reasons are because it creates death panels and if you can't afford healthcare you deserve to die. It would be perfectly reasonable from a leftist perspective to attack the ACA, but it just gets weird when you get chummy chummy with conservatives who hate it for a completely different reason who don't think your universal healthcare alternatives are any better.

I dont think any leftist (or liberal for that matter) is gonna be chummy with someone who's making an argument that sick people should just die. That's just not happening at all. I dont even know where you would think that's happening at.

Liberalism is just conservativism wrapped in a different packaging.

I may wish life was as simple as believing "good" is the left, "evil" is the right. But it's too idealistic a viewpoint. In reality, any position or platform can be taken to a horrifying extreme.

"What is an example of liberalism?
The fundamental liberal ideals of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the separation of church and state, the right to due process, and equality under the law are widely accepted as a common foundation of liberalism"

All things anathema to leftists.

Hello, new user attacking the left.

trivialbeing posted...

"What is an example of liberalism?
The fundamental liberal ideals of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the separation of church and state, the right to due process, and equality under the law are widely accepted as a common foundation of liberalism"

All things anathema to leftists.

Whats the leftist position on separation of church and state?

trivialbeing posted...

"What is an example of liberalism?
The fundamental liberal ideals of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the separation of church and state, the right to due process, and equality under the law are widely accepted as a common foundation of liberalism"

All things anathema to leftists.

Who starts and operates the legal, advocacy, and media organizations that support and defend these things? Would you say the ACLU, the Intercept, EFF, civil rights organizations, public defender's offices, mutual aid groups, etc are staffed by conservatives, or by people generally significantly to the left of center, if not socialists/anarchists/communists?

Liberalism encompasses a broad range of things, especially when you start breaking it down into classic liberalism, neo-classic liberalism, fiscal liberalism, etc. Etc.

Using "liberal" as its meaning in the English language (Sprinkle liberally with salt, for example) confuses a lot of people since the political definition is FAR different.

I would argue most political liberal people are closer to centrists than left, historically speaking.

Anteaterking posted...

It's a reasonable distinction and what that I think people actually do legitimately draw, but I feel like most of the time "I'm not a liberal I'm a leftist" tends to be brought up in arguments against people on the right and it's generally just a precursor to both sides "agreeing" that liberals are bad but without any sort of additional movement on behalf of the right wing person.

Its more an attempt to wedge in a little nuance into their political thinking than to get them to change it.

mistymermaid posted...

Hello, new user attacking the left.

Don't worry. He got warned for trolling about the current mass shooting, so he won't be replying any time soon.

StealThisSheen posted...

Don't worry. He got warned for trolling about the current mass shooting, so he won't be replying any time soon.

Nah; that was a different new user.

trivialbeing posted...

"What is an example of liberalism?
The fundamental liberal ideals of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the separation of church and state, the right to due process, and equality under the law are widely accepted as a common foundation of liberalism"

All things anathema to leftists.

Can you give examples please. How are leftists against those things?

Scratch a liberal

It's much more important to be liberal than "left".

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

The unending quest to teach at least one conservative that in fact, the two terms mean different things and cannot be used interchangeably.

This. Libs are just one step away from chuds and they both serve the same masters. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

XxX_6GAMING9GOKU_XxX posted...

This. Libs are just one step away from chuds and they both serve the same masters. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

Yikes lol.

mistymermaid posted...

I may wish life was as simple as believing "good" is the left, "evil" is the right. But it's too idealistic a viewpoint. In reality, any position or platform can be taken to a horrifying extreme.

Republicans have actually made it quite simple. Only the left is "less evil" or "misguided, but we'll intentioned". While the right is "very evil" and "self serving".

nocturnal_traveler posted...

Republicans have actually made it quite simple. Only the left is "less evil" or "misguided, but we'll intentioned". While the right is "very evil" and "self serving".

But there's no relevant left in the US.

ToteAll posted...

But there's no relevant left in the US.

I've found it difficult to seek accurate information on what the left even is.

These days, anybody to the left of Trump is branded the "radical left".

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/3/4/AAOGRhAAE-nK.jpg

squall567 posted...

Liberalism is just conservativism wrapped in a different packaging.

More accurately, Conservatism is a form of liberalism.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

Republicans have actually made it quite simple. Only the left is "less evil" or "misguided, but we'll intentioned". While the right is "very evil" and "self serving".

The left isn't "less evil" though. You're talking about centrist ideologies like liberalism then.

Leftism has always been characterised as desiring genuine material positive change.

But how do I own them both?

FL81 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/3/4/AAOGRhAAE-nK.jpg

I've always found this funny. The liberal looks like a smug, rich asshole too, lol. The socialist has some Bernie Sanders energy, which certainly hits different today than it would 100 years ago or so when that comic first came out.

Leftist in the United States just refers to progressives, who tend to advocate for a more sane version of capitalism than what we have. Theyre only left because the entire spectrum is shifted so far to the right.

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I've always found this funny. The liberal looks like a smug, rich asshole too, lol.

Pretty accurate for the nimby "fuck you got mine" kind of liberal.

AloneIBreak posted...

Leftist in the United States just refers to progressives, who tend to advocate for a more sane version of capitalism than what we have. Theyre only left because the entire spectrum is shifted so far to the right.

I haven't put much thought into it, but my wanting more power in the working class isn't really compatible with the present capitalist structure.

"I'm not a conservative, I'm a rightest"

PrettyBoyFloyd posted...

"I'm not a conservative, I'm a fascist"

Ftfy

Dark_Arbron posted...

Do academics even use those terms in serious discussion? Or do they actually address issues directly and individually instead of relying on sweeping labels?

Ill use myself as an example.

I support civilian gun rights in a limited capacity with background checks and mandatory training.
I support abortion and maternal care.
I support same-sex marriage.
I support universal healthcare.
I support holding police, corporations and the rich accountable.
But at the same time, I believe duty of care can be taken too far (e.g if you ignore a Caution Wet Floor sign and slip over, those consequences should be on you, not the premises).
I support prison reform and a focus on mental health and rehabilitation for offenders who genuinely want it.
I supported Australias the Voice campaign.
I am disillusioned with democracy but begrudgingly accept its still the least worst we have.

Am I a leftist? A liberal? Does my opinion on guns and self defence in general pull me a little toward the centre? Call me what you will. I dont need a label to explain myself.

Those are a simple word, sanity. Something direly lacking in history.
I too made ignorant remarks about abortion in the past.