Poll of the Day > HAMAS invades Israel

(+) Yeah! (+)

darkknight109 posted...

FYI, the baby-decapitation story is now generally believed to be a hoax, as there isn't any evidence substantiating it.

IIRC Biden claimed to have seen images of the incident. Though that didn't really line up with the original source of the story, which was a statement from an IDF soldier that the Israeli government wouldn't confirm.

It's kind of irrelevant one way or the other, as we know that babies/children were killed and I don't think they had a preference for cause of death. That said I find the idea of baby beheadings kind of hard to believe.

darkknight109 posted...

Israel apparently blew up a hospital in Gaza today. 500+ dead according to Palestinian authorities. Israel has claimed that Gaza is responsible and it was a friendly fire incident. I am sceptical, to say the least.

So they originally claimed that they blew up a Hamas base, then when it became clear that it was a civilian hospital they backpedalled and said that Hamas blew it up

again, how did they manange to snipe a BBC reporter in Tel Aviv and a journalist in Lebanon?

If any of you are interested in learning about Palestinian civilian viewpoints of the conflict, mainly during the early 90s and mid 2000s I highly recommend reading "Palestine" and "Footnotes in Gaza" by Joe Sacco. They are graphic non-fiction (basically non-fiction comics) and are very well done.

Lokarin posted...

again, how did they manange to snipe a BBC reporter in Tel Aviv and a journalist in Lebanon?

"These things just happen in war."

"Alexa, play news from Al Jezera"

I just read on CNN that Israel has killed over 2000 children and over 1000 women in Gaza in the last 2 weeks. I mean, who are they at war with here?

fettster777 posted...

I just read on CNN that Israel has killed over 2000 children and over 1000 women in Gaza in the last 2 weeks. I mean, who are they at war with here?

ya, they started firing on evacuation trucks day 1

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252

fettster777 posted...

I just read on CNN that Israel has killed over 2000 children and over 1000 women in Gaza in the last 2 weeks. I mean, who are they at war with here?

I don't trust anything the media is saying about this situation tbh, they've been reporting false claims from hamas and it's hard to tell what is the truth and what is the media trying to push the narrative from an actual terrorist organization.

BlackScythe0 posted...

I don't trust anything the media is saying about this situation tbh, they've been reporting false claims from hamas and it's hard to tell what is the truth and what is the media trying to push the narrative from an actual terrorist organization.

Either give a shit or don't then. Try to confirm it.

There are obvious ones where there is some discrepancy, like the hospital blast. Gaza said 471 dead. Estimates sit at 100-300. The media got it wrong initially, and then corrected. Most people that get pissy at the media don't recognize that they typically correct themselves. I don't like CNN, but they usually put in a fair bit of work, even if it's largely repetative and has a lot of fluff.

Other stuff like civilian death estimates have been corroborated via various means. Hamas can go fuck itself from my POV. I still don't agree with the methods of Israel's respose, because the civilian casualities are definitely disproportionate. It's definitely past around 5,000 dead - those numbers are not very contestible.

BlackScythe0 posted...

I don't trust anything the media is saying about this situation tbh, they've been reporting false claims from hamas and it's hard to tell what is the truth and what is the media trying to push the narrative from an actual terrorist organization.

The specific numbers may be a little fuzzy, but it's not really in question that Israel is killing large numbers of Palestinian civilians in their retaliation. It's also not surprising, since they've been doing that for decades. This is just a major escalation of that.

Israel outright threatens the UN

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/israel-to-refuse-visas-to-un-officials-after-guterres-speech-on-gaza-war

that absolutely tracks for israel

i hope they overplay their hand so hard that support is retracted from them

Lokarin posted...

Israel outright threatens the UN

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/israel-to-refuse-visas-to-un-officials-after-guterres-speech-on-gaza-war

Can you blame them?

BlackScythe0 posted...

Can you blame them?

Yes. Why can't you?

It's shocking how many posters in here are on the side of people who literally holding hostages as we speak.

I'm on the side of not blowing up civilians.

Lobomoon posted...

It's shocking how many posters in here are on the side of people who literally holding hostages as we speak.

It's shocking how many people are unwilling to accept that Israel is an aggressor state perpetrating genocide and apartheid rule.

Lobomoon posted...

It's shocking how many posters in here are on the side of people who literally holding hostages as we speak.

"I can excuse mass civilian casualties but I draw the line at hostages"

Jen0125 posted...

It's shocking how many people are unwilling to accept that Israel is an aggressor state perpetrating genocide and apartheid rule.

Whatever fortune cookie quote works for you...

Where are you getting fortune cookies that they mention apartheid?

Lobomoon posted...

It's shocking how many posters in here are on the side of people who literally holding hostages as we speak.

If you're going to make it that simple, then prepare to be shocked by people holding values that don't conflict with one another.

Did you know that you can both 'side' with innocent Palestinian civilians and also condemn the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th? I wasn't aware that the dead children partook in the hostage-taking!

This is equivalent to protesting mass civilian death in Iraq while still opposing Saddam Hussein. It isn't complicated, unless you're thinking in extremely simple binaries.

ReturnOfFa posted...

Did you know that you can both 'side' with innocent Palestinian civilians and also condemn the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th?

Right? Half the population of Palestine is children and I'm supposed to be? What? Supporting them being indiscriminately bombed?

No, I don't think I will.

Careful Jen, that sounds like Nazi talk

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/no-human-being-can-exist/

I thought we were in the "save the children" era but I guess that only applies to some children.

Lobomoon posted...

It's shocking how many posters in here are on the side of people who literally holding hostages as we speak.

@Lobomoon

This is like the Jews in Nazi Germany committing a terrorist attack against German citizens, and then going "well they started it" when the Germans start quadrupling the gas chambers.

It's not that Hamas isn't bad, it's that Hamas is Isreal's fault, and if they really wanted to defeat Hamas, they would stop oppressing the Palastinians because what they actually want to to eradicate the "inferior and savage" Muslims.

They've killed over 4000 Palastinians now, displaced 600,000, and taken out 13 Hamas terrorists. That's not counting all the civilians they've killed by displacing them, Palestinians have an average life span of 35. That's a 99% civilian death rate.

Also, Palestinians haven't had a say in their government rep since Hamas was elected. They haven't even had an opportunity to expel them.

I mean you guys are defending a government that solicits people to move to Israel and literally steal the homes of Palestinians who are already being oppressed. How is that defensable? How is it defensable that they have these people living in an open air prison??

Yellow posted...

@Lobomoon

This is like the Jews in Nazi Germany committing a terrorist attack against German citizens, and then going "well they started it" when the Germans start quadrupling the gas chambers.

It's not that Hamas isn't bad, it's that Hamas is Isreal's fault, and if they really wanted to defeat Hamas, they would stop oppressing the Palastinians because what they actually want to to eradicate the "inferior and savage" Muslims.

They've killed over 4000 Palastinians now, displaced 600,000, and taken out 13 Hamas terrorists. That's not counting all the civilians they've killed by displacing them, Palestinians have an average life span of 35. That's a 99% civilian death rate.

That's my point exactly. You are trying to justify terrorism.

The HAMAS missile strike is an act of terrorism and debatably not justified.

The Palestinian populace at large are not HAMAS, and have been abused for decades.

Lobomoon posted...

You are trying to justify terrorism.

Israel has been funding terrorism because they need an amoral foe so they can disproportionately retaliate and steal more land in wartime. Netanyahu has been outright funding Hamas, saying them being in power is important in "thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian state".

Lobomoon posted...

That's my point exactly. You are trying to justify terrorism.

I'm really not. The Hamas terrorist attack was bad for everyone. This isn't me taking a side. It was a radical Islamo-fascist attack where everyone involved was selfishly in it for their 42 virgins. They couldn't care less about the well-being of their fellow Palestinians. Maybe they do, but they are not smart enough or educated enough to understand it. They die on average at the age of 35 as stateless citizens. Regardless, there is a reason these terrorist groups pop up that we can see if we're above the fray.

I am only interested in reducing human suffering. There's a proper way out of this, Isreal is not interested in it, because they are run by theocratic far-right zionists. They're not just the good guys here. We need to look at the overall picture here. They have power to improve the situation and they don't care. They prefer elimination.

So yeah, it's a very complex situation and we can't just take sides as if it's a football team. We have to understand what's going on and what we can do to fix it.

Right now Biden should be using his power (as the world's leading superpower) to demand an immediate ceasefire. He should then demand that Israel make accommodations to Palestinians, regarding them as equal citizens. The idea is that Hamas loses power as Palestinians have hope for something else, something currently they don't have.

Instead Biden is providing aid to help against the Palestinian terrorists with a 99% civilian death rate, something which I hope you can see doesn't really make sense.

I don't see how anyone can still be in favor of a two state solution. So no I really don't see how it makes sense to expect Biden to assist terrorists.

BlackScythe0 posted...

I don't see how anyone can still be in favor of a two state solution. So no I really don't see how it makes sense to expect Biden to assist terrorists.

I'd be in favour of a 3 state solution, or giving Palestine the Negev region

BlackScythe0 posted...

I don't see how anyone can still be in favor of a two state solution. So no I really don't see how it makes sense to expect Biden to assist terrorists.

99% civilian death rate, don't forget that detail. Don't assume that Isreal is in the right here. This is a problem they can't be trusted to fix on their own. It's something they caused.

Lobomoon posted...

That's my point exactly. You are trying to justify terrorism.

Where in there are you seeing "terrorism is okay" and not just "blowing up civilians is bad"?

BlackScythe0 posted...

So no I really don't see how it makes sense to expect Biden to assist terrorists.

Do you or do you not accept the premise that Palestine does not consists entirely of terrorists?

adjl posted...

Where in there are you seeing "terrorism is okay" and not just "blowing up civilians is bad"?

Do you or do you not accept the premise that Palestine does not consists entirely of terrorists?

While true, even if Palestine was nothing but Hamas terrorists, it doesn't change the fact that their existence is something Israel could prevent if they ceased their apartheid.

Just in case someone pops up and says "look, 90% of Palestinians support Hamas", you know.

Yellow posted...

While true, even if Palestine was nothing but Hamas terrorists, it doesn't change the fact that their existence is something Israel could prevent if they ceased their apartheid.

Just in case someone pops up and says "look, 90% of Palestinians support Hamas", you know.

Yes, 100%. Palestinians support Hamas because the alternative is supporting an apartheid state that wants them all dead but doesn't quite have enough international support to achieve that yet, so it oppresses them to an inexcusable degree. If Israel weren't bent on turning Palestine into an open-air concentration camp, significantly fewer Palestinians would harbour enough resentment against them to engage in terrorist attacks. Because they're so mistreated, it's easy for terrorist organizations to find people desperate and disenfranchised enough to throw their lives away lashing out in anger. That becomes significantly harder when most people are content and comfortable and don't actually have anything to be angry about.

It's something a lot of people seem to struggle with: You can understand and even agree with terrorists' motivations without agreeing with or justifying terrorism. For an example that most will find easier to swallow, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. Quite unambiguously so. He spent 27 years in prison for the terrorist acts he committed in his fight against South African apartheid. That doesn't mean his cause was not just, it means he went about fighting for it in a manner that wasn't. And then his time in prison gave him an opportunity to move past that and seek reconciliation and a peaceful resolution, such that he's remembered not for being a terrorist, but for being a great political leader.

Now, I'm not about to suggest that Hamas is the same as Mandela and those that fought with him, nor do I think characterizing them as "freedom fighters" is altogether accurate (as much as they're ostensibly fighting for freedom, they're focusing too much on spreading terror and not enough on trying to make strategic gains to secure a better life for Palestinians), but it's still analogous. That some people resort to terrorism in fighting for a cause does not invalidate that cause. You'd think Americans would understand that, but contextualizing one's own national history is a skill many people lack.

Lobomoon posted...

That's my point exactly. You are trying to justify terrorism.

he's literally reciting history and didn't mention the terrorist acts

Israel and Palestine should be given to who God meant it for, the Mormons

adjl posted...

And then his time in prison gave him an opportunity to move past that and seek reconciliation and a peaceful resolution, such that he's remembered not for being a terrorist, but for being a great political leader.

Depending on what universe you live in, he might have died in prison

I'm surprised people defending Palestine aren't getting modded here tbh lmao wouldn't have surprised me

Zareth posted...

Depending on what universe you live in, he might have died in prison

Which is why he was such a great president. You can get away with a lot more radical improvements when you're a ghost and can't be assassinated.

Net'n'yahoo announces a "second wave" invasion of Gaza

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/28/israel-gaza-ground-operation/?utm_source=reddit.com

Unfun Fact:

Mossad had 3 days early warning an attack was imminent but were told to ignore it

Yellow posted...

I'm really not. The Hamas terrorist attack was bad for everyone. This isn't me taking a side. It was a radical Islamo-fascist attack where everyone involved was selfishly in it for their 42 virgins. They couldn't care less about the well-being of their fellow Palestinians. Maybe they do, but they are not smart enough or educated enough to understand it. They die on average at the age of 35 as stateless citizens. Regardless, there is a reason these terrorist groups pop up that we can see if we're above the fray.

I am only interested in reducing human suffering. There's a proper way out of this, Isreal is not interested in it, because they are run by theocratic far-right zionists. They're not just the good guys here. We need to look at the overall picture here. They have power to improve the situation and they don't care. They prefer elimination.

That's weird - the mods deleted my post but not all the instances of people quoting it. At least someone here "picked a side". OK, I'll bite - what's the "proper way" to respond to a thousand Israelis killed by "not Palestinians"?

Lobomoon posted...

That's weird - the mods deleted my post but not all the instances of people quoting it. At least someone here "picked a side". OK, I'll bite - what's the "proper way" to respond to a thousand Israelis killed by "not Palestinians"?

A government has a right to defend themselves, and even attack, from terrorists; However, that government also has the responsibility to protect civilians even in hostile environments.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/29/hamas-israel-war-palestinian-civilians-jake-sullivan-comments?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other