Current Events > New Netflix documentary about Cleopatra being black

(+) Yeah! (+)

Are they going to show her marry and get together with her 10 year old brothers?

I was going to make some comment about historians having covered this but then I realized I literally don't care even a little and there's no way will I ever watch this documentary regardless of how accurate or lack thereof it is.

https://youtu.be/u75Sp8QQpgM

Irony posted...

So black

Greeks aren't black you ignorant buffoon.

Gritty posted...

The BCU

Lmfao

Phoenixeater posted...

Greeks aren't black you ignorant buffoon.

In the context of the Ancient World identities could be malleable and flexible. What constitutes one as a Hellene in the Ancient World was ever shifting especially during the Hellenistic era and in the Hellenistic kingdoms of the Near East. Things like the way you drank your wine, the language you spoke, customs, and other things marked you as a Greek, or a "barbarian".

For Thukydides we have examples of him referring to the Aeotolians, or people from Western Greece, as "barbarians" despite speaking Greek, worshipping Greek gods and such because of "barbarian" practices such as carrying weapons in open space. Meanwhile Strabo refers to these people as Greek centuries later. Indeed, one aspect Polybios tries to paint the Romans as being Greek aligned, and the Makedonian king as being a barbarian, is by tying the Greek identity to virtues, morals and political systems. Polybios was most likely trying to justify the decision of the Achean League to rally around the Romans rather than the Makedonian king but it shows how flexible identities can be.

Even in the context of black people they're attested in being in Greece at the time. Aristotle mentions their presence twice and they appear in art too. There could've been black people who were Greeks just as we learn of Romans with dark skin both in literature and art.

FWIW the Romans would often paint women as pale as a ghost, which was the beauty standard of the time. So the Roman paintings we have of her could be idealized and not necessarily accurate. I don't think that should be taken as hard evidence.

That said, yeah, the Ptolemaic dynasty was known for not integrating much with the local Egyptians, and sticking to their own Macedonian-Greek culture and language. Plus they tended to mostly marry their siblings and cousins (...seriously, that family tree has a lot of circles). While we can't rule out one of her ancestors was a native Egyptian, most likely Cleopatra would look like the average Greek.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I was going to make some comment about historians having covered this but then I realized I literally don't care even a little and there's no way will I ever watch this documentary regardless of how accurate or lack thereof it is.

Same with all the people who are gonna complain about her being black

Stallion_Prime posted...

Is this made by one of those "black people invented everything " kinda guys?

Wouldn't be surprised if it was some Hotep financed thing.

Her dynasty in Egypt were literally Greek mainland people that got Egypt as a spoil of war after Alexander the Great died. Ptolemy was a general that started the Ptolemaic dynasty.

The fact that its debatable if was white means she was black.

KINDERFELD posted...

The fact that its debatable if was white means she was black.

She was part Iranian and Greek. Some Iranians have very white, Caucasian features. She was part of a Macedonian (largely Slavic) empire. They just have no idea what her maternal family makeup was.

I'm about 99% sure "Cleopatra was black" is some Hotep thing.

wanderingshade posted...

She was part Iranian and Greek. Some Iranians have very white, Caucasian features. She was part of a Macedonian (largely Slavic) empire. They just have no idea what her maternal family makeup was.

I'm about 99% sure "Cleopatra was black" is some Hotep thing.

The original Macedonians weren't a Slavic people. North Macedonia today has nothing in common with historical Macedonia.

None of us created the 1 drop rule and you can't have it both ways. There are many non-white ethnicities that look and have white features.
However, not white = black or a person of color.

With that understanding, Cleopatra was black.

Kinderfeld is going full Kinderfeld in my topic.

Not liking that one bit.

If I exit your topic, so too goes any semblance of commonsense.

Ivynn posted...

The original Macedonians weren't a Slavic people. North Macedonia today has nothing in common with historical Macedonia.

Not much is know about the Macedonian people since no works from them survive. Instead what remains is what other people wrote about them like the Greeks and Romans. Nevertheless the modern Greek and Macedonian states are in a battle over appropriating the past for the sake of nation building. But as I wanted to highlight in my last post there is no long, unbroken line connecting modern people to ancient people and what it means to be a Hellene in the 3rd century BC is totally different than what it means to be one in the 21st century AD.

KINDERFELD posted...

None of us created the 1 drop rule and you can't have it both ways. There are many non-white ethnicities that look and have white features.
However, not white = black or a person of color.

With that understanding, Cleopatra was black.

The issue is transplanting modern ideas of race that arose from a post-slavery and post-colonial world unto the past and that doesn't really work. Ancient people didn't have a concept of race like modern people do.

HannibalBarca3 posted...

Not much is know about the Macedonian people since no works from them survive. Instead what remains is what other people wrote about them like the Greeks and Romans. Nevertheless the modern Greek and Macedonian states are in a battle over appropriating the past for the sake of nation building. But as I wanted to highlight in my last post there is no long, unbroken line connecting modern people to ancient people and what it means to be a Hellene in the 3rd century BC is totally different than what it means to be one in the 21st century AD.

The issue is transplanting modern ideas of race that arose from a post-slavery and post-colonial world unto the past and that doesn't really work. Ancient people didn't have a concept of race like modern people do.

Like it or not, we are debating this in modern time with our modern concepts asking if Cleopatra was black.

If you have a time machine then please me know. I'll stand corrected.

This song confirms it all honestly, cant argue with it really:

https://youtu.be/dMV31MWIjLE

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


and her great great great granddaughter is pretty fine

creativerealms posted...

An Egyptian woman being black? Shocked.

Whoosh.

Also, Bass really didn't want this topic to purge.

Being Greek or Egyptian doesn't equate to being black. I'm so sick of dumbasses believing otherwise.

Zikten posted...

I could be wrong, but I've always been under the impression that modern day Egyptians are not the same ethnicity as ancient Egyptians

Copts (their Christian ethno-religious group) actually are the same as ancient Egyptians. Muslims have some black African ancestry (especially Nigerian) because of the Arab slave trade

So Remi Malek is as Egyptian and Ramses

I laughed as soon as I saw this advertised because of how stupid it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FprMMNmCav8

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12jqp3a/short_answers_to_simple_questions_april_12_2023/jgn2fn3/

Also pretty funny that some want to make ethnic designations as complicated when in ancient sources it is obvious that this isn't the case. Sure Judeans, Assyrians, Ionians, Mendes, Persians, Phoenicians and Egyptians thought of themselves as distinct when we necessarily wouldn't today. Still, they all new they weren't and who actually were Ethiopians/Kushites/Nubians.

The problem is seeing skin color as a marker that excludes one from being x identity. Idenities in the ancient world were a lot more fluid and malleable and were tied more to culture and customs more so than apperance.

Either way my post above talks about how Kleopatra VII Philopator depiction as a black woman is centuries old and not some modern phenomenon. It stems from Roman writers depicting Kleopatra as a barbarian queen and Other with European writers linking her with blackness and negative stereotypes. In the 19th century black Americans used Kleopatra racist image and adopted it as a positive model of blackness.

More bad news, an Egyptian lawyer is suing Netflix v

https://reddit.com/r/news/comments/12swxlh/egyptian_lawyer_sues_netflix_for_casting_black/

Phoenixeater posted...

Being Greek or Egyptian doesn't equate to being black. I'm so sick of dumbasses believing otherwise.

It doesn't preclude it, either.

lolife67 posted...

It doesn't preclude it, either.

In the world Cleopatra lived in, yes it does

there were actual women that ruled egypt and wielded way more power than cleopatra that were black, idk why anyone is choosing her as the hill to die on when we know she was mediterranean looking.

andel posted...

there were actual women that ruled egypt and wielded way more power than cleopatra that were black, idk why anyone is choosing her as the hill to die on when we know she was mediterranean looking.

Just cause she is the only Egyptian woman most people have ever heard of.

andel posted...

there were actual women that ruled egypt and wielded way more power than cleopatra that were black, idk why anyone is choosing her as the hill to die on when we know she was mediterranean looking.

In part is because black Americans adopted Kleopatra as a positive model of blackness in the 19th century. In Western literary tradition the Romans have stood as being "Western", "White", "Civilized", etc. By contrast, and due to Roman attitudes, Kleopatra was seen as a sexual barbarian other who stood for decadent values and in turn meant that she isn't "western" nor "white".

In the Renaissance Kleopatra was linked to the concept of blackness and in literary tradition has been perceived as a black woman. During the 19th century black Americans saw her as symbol of dignity and empowerment, being able to stand up to the Romans and rule Egypt as an independent monarch. You should read the AskHistorian post I posted a bit up for a more detailed view of Kleopatra depiction as a black woman and a positive symbol of blackness.

I don't see how you could make a documentary about "Cleopatra may have been dark-skinned" (and that doesn't even seem that remarkable since she was a resident of Africa, even if it was northern Africa). Seems like you'd need to start resorting to filler or broadening the scope within at most thirty minutes...

HannibalBarca3 posted...

Enough about Kleopatra VII Philopator. There's much more interesting stories about the diadochi to be told.

BurmesePenguin posted...

Honestly yeah, the conflicts that followed Alexander's death are as interesting as the fall of the Roman Republic but gets way less focus on pop education.

I'm to lazy to look it up but very interested and upset that you didn't include links to anything ( -_-)

https://variety.com/2023/tv/global/queen-cleopatra-black-netflix-egypt-1235590708/

lol @ the director trying to clap back by saying "why do you have a problem with black Cleopatra? HUH?? HUH??!!"

indica posted...

I'm to lazy to look it up but very interested and upset that you didn't include links to anything ( -_-)

A good starting point on the diadokhoi would be the Hellenistic Age podcast which covers the era after the death of Alexander the Great:
https://hellenisticagepodcast.wordpress.com/episode-notes/

So I did some internet research, and apparently Cleopatra owned slaves. Not a good look for Netflix.

ChrisReeve posted...

So I did some internet research, and apparently Cleopatra owned slaves. Not a good look for Netflix.

Time to cancel Cleopatra

they should have just focused on one of the black pharaohs the average person hasn't heard much about, tbh, if they wanted to make a documentary about a black Egyptian leader.

HannibalBarca3 posted...

A good starting point on the diadokhoi would be the Hellenistic Age podcast which covers the era after the death of Alexander the Great:
https://hellenisticagepodcast.wordpress.com/episode-notes/

Thanks. I know a lot about the Hellenic and Hellenistic Ages but wanted to look a little more closely into the time directly after Alex's death.

ChrisReeve posted...

So I did some internet research, and apparently Cleopatra owned slaves. Not a good look for Netflix.

A pharaoh had slaves? Who would've thought?

boxoto posted...

they should have just focused on one of the black pharaohs the average person hasn't heard much about, tbh, if they wanted to make a documentary about a black Egyptian leader.

They've been captured by Afrocentrists, so even if it offends real Egyptians, Americans must make all Pharaohs black

I think the funniest thing with "why do you have a problem with Black Cleopatra" people is that they're accusing actual Egyptians of being racist for not liking their history being appropriated.

AmericaTheBrave posted...

I think the funniest thing with "why do you have a problem with Black Cleopatra" people is that they're accusing actual Egyptians of being racist for not liking their history being appropriated.

It's sad, but that's how far they are willing to go these days for race swapping, it's because someone just doesn't like black people

https://isisnaucratis.medium.com/cleopatra-vii-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving-f749b66c552c

indica posted...

A pharaoh had slaves? Who would've thought?

Doesn't matter, must cancel.

Black culture has a lot of things to claim but I don't think Cleopatra isn't one. Even if it turns out Cleopatra has some Egyptian lineage, pretty much no Egyptian identifies as Black. I actually used to work with immigrant from northern Africa and none I've worked with identify as Black or African American. Interestingly, many Moroccans identify as Caucasians.

Blackness is a uniquely American concept born from the history, struggle, oppression of African descendants forced into the American colonies. Eve n Black Hispanics do not necessarily identify with Black Americans.

I think the biggest issue is here thinking identitie like "Egyptian", "Black", "Greek" or what have you, are some unbroken concepts that stretch all the way into the past. From Professor Rebecca Futo Kennedy:

To ask whether someone was black or white or Black or White is anachronistic and says more about modern political investments than attempting to understand antiquity on its own terms. As I wrote on the Society of Classical Studies facebook page: I am getting at the issue of lineage and descent as the thing that makes one Egyptian or Greek or Roman. We know that one could be any of these things in antiquity by adoption, citizenship, descent, or cultural practice. We know that some people who called themselves Greeks did not think people of Macedonian descent (Ptolemies!) were Greek. We know the Ptolemies intermarried at least twice with Syrian-Macedonian-Greek families. We know Romans defined themselves through citizenship and Cleopatra may have gained it. We know Egyptians accepted her as pharaoh and considered her Egyptian. Our modern ethno-national or bioracial ideas did not define identity in antiquity, so how is it anything but modern ideology or anachronism to limit ancient identities to our specific model of parental birth? That is my point. My point is that if we want to be more historically accurate, we need to understand how ancient peoples considered their ethnicities instead of universalizing and de-historicizing our own views and putting them on them. It isnt rewriting history to try to understand the past better in its own terms. Its revising modern attempts at understanding history with better knowledge and nuance. But I have not seen the show (just the trailer), so I dont know what they are doing fully. What I am saying only is that this she was Greek not Egyptian fundamentally misunderstands ancient ways of thinking.

She could have been Greek, Macedonian, Egyptian, and Roman all at the same time because these are not a matter (only) of ancestry.

As I've stressed in other posts here identities in the ancient world were a lot more fluid than they are today. Take for example the Macedonians, Alexander I of Macedon had to prove his "Greekness" in order to participate in the olympics, which he apparently did, Herodotos never actually presents the evidence, by proving a mythic lineage to the Greek hero Herakles. Likewise the mainland Greeks didn't appear to see the Macedonian people as being Hellenes, this line was a lot more blurred in the Hellenistic kingdoms in the eastern mediterranean, but sometimes there was an acceptance of the nobility depending on the person. We see contrast of this between Isokrates and Demosthenes during the rise of Philip II of Macedon. I've mentioned how Polybios tied "Greekness" to morals and political systems in an effort to present the Romans as showing "Greekness" and the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon from a "darling of the Greeks" to a barbarian king eschewing all things Greek. Even things like the way you drank your wine or even the act of carrying weapons in public could barr people from certain groups to some, it wasn't a consistent thing based off one thing. What it means to be "black", or "egyptian", "greek", etc carries a completely different meaning in context and trying to impose our modern conceptualization of identities unto the past won't ever yield any fruitful discussion except for petty nationalists bickering.

And as mentioned by the article I've linked earlier no one seems to care about the other Kleopatras. How many people are rushing to "claim" Kleopatra III Philometor Soteira Dikaiosyne Nikephoros as their own? It's a matter of trying to "claim" the biggest and most well known historical figures. On top of all that people are hyper focused on skin color more than anything else. How many people here care that they portray the wrong sets of clothes or the culture is inaccurately portrayed? It's only when they cast an actor with dark skin that people start to come out of the woodworks to complain. A similar thing happened when the BBC depicted a dark skin Roman legionnaire which prompted accusations of distorting the past. The depiction of a black Kleopatra is also not a new phenomenon but one that is centuries old that has it's roots with the renaissance conceptualization of whiteness and blackness which was tied to moral character. There is a poem where a pitch black "Saracen" has his skin turn white by converting to Christianity for the best example of what I mean. Kleopatra wasn't Roman, she was a sexual immoral barbarian other so in the minds of Renaissance writers she became black and in the 19th century black Americans adopted Kleopatra as a positive role model of blackness, reversing the racist imagery imposed to her by European writers. In reality we don't really know how she would look like, she is depicted based off standards of femininity and royalty of her time and how she's depicted in coins differs to how she's depicted in Egyiptian iconography.

If anything, it just exposes how American black Americans are and they need to be called out on it more often