Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 403: Indictment's excitement and incitement.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just your reminder that most people dont know jack and sometimes governments need to lead on public opinion not follow it.

Dancedreamer posted...

lol acting like Trump and DeSantis won't run on it anyway. Nobody's going to be like "I was going to vote for Biden, but he wants to let trans people play high school and college sports. So I'm going to vote for Trump." Because those people are already voting for Trump. Anyone who has that strong of an opinion on it is 100% a trump supporter already.

Except that isn't true at all?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/1/1/AANz_VAAEW6L.png

28% of voters vs 46% of voters

You have 18% of voters who oppose transgender professional sports and support joe biden

https://news.gallup.com/vault/316130/gallup-vault-americans-narrowly-1964-civil-rights-law.aspx

You lead on civil rights, you don't follow.

By passing protections for people it makes it much harder for hatred to remain and fester .

Literally more than 30% of the country was against the civil rights act at the time of its passing.

SirChris posted...

https://news.gallup.com/vault/316130/gallup-vault-americans-narrowly-1964-civil-rights-law.aspx

You lead on civil rights, you don't follow.

By passing protections for people it makes it much harder for hatred to remain and fester .

Literally more than 30% of the country was against the civil rights act at the time of its passing.

There is a gigantic difference between 60% approve and 30% approve

masterplum posted...

Except that isn't true at all?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/1/1/AANz_VAAEW6L.png

28% of voters vs 46% of voters

You have 18% of voters who oppose transgender professional sports and support joe biden

How is this a response to the message quoted...?

Also wasn't there a poll just the other day that said the majority of Americans, even Republicans, see attacks on LGBT rights as political theater? This is a losing issue for Biden. At the least it's bad optics.

masterplum posted...

There is a gigantic difference between 60% approve and 30% approve

That was approval after the law had been passed, whereas no such laws have been passed with sweeping protections for transgender people.

Also that same poll you cited had a generally favorable opinion of trans people so they are like you I guess - trans people aren't so bad but they shouldn't play sports. If Biden suddenly made a decree that trans people can play sports would that really even register to you when voting? I doubt it.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same-sex-marriage.aspx

Here's another example. Back in 1996 only 27% of Americans thought gay people should be allowed to marry.

I can't wait for 20 years to pass for people to go 'oh yeah we're stupid trans people are people" <_<

Kenri posted...

How is this a response to the message quoted...?

Also wasn't there a poll just the other day that said the majority of Americans, even Republicans, see attacks on LGBT rights as political theater? This is a losing issue for Biden. At the least it's bad optics.

I think politically this doesn't matter because its a niche issue of a niche issue and since every Republican is supporting much more insane takes than just this it's just disappointing rather than damaging.

Speaking purely politically.

SirChris posted...

That was approval after the law had been passed, whereas no such laws have been passed with sweeping protections for transgender people.

Also that same poll you cited had a generally favorable opinion of trans people so they are like you I guess - trans people aren't so bad but they shouldn't play sports. If Biden suddenly made a decree that trans people can play sports would that really even register to you when voting? I doubt it.

Yeah it would. Would it make me vote for fascists? No, but it would certainly make me less likely donate money or encourage people to vote because it would dampen enthusiasm if it became a core issue.

I really believe degrading womens sports is an attack on women and womens rights is a deep issue to me. It really bothers me the way some men culturally treat women as property and I get the same vibe from some people that they are treating womens sports as some ridiculous afterthought that doesnt matter because it doesnt matter to them.

But like you said, trans athletes make up a tiny proportion of athletes. I dont think its just to set the stage to torpedo the competitiveness of womens sports to accommodate a tiny fraction of women.

I think kids sports is fine, but at the high school and college level it isnt fair.

masterplum posted...

Yeah it would. Would it make me vote for fascists? No, but it would certainly make me less likely donate money or encourage people to vote because it would dampen enthusiasm if it became a core issue.

I really believe degrading womens sports is an attack on women and womens rights is a deep issue to me. It really bothers me the way some men culturally treat women as property and I get the same vibe from some people that they are treating womens sports as some ridiculous afterthought that doesnt matter because it doesnt matter to them.

But like you said, trans athletes make up a tiny proportion of athletes. I dont think its just to set the stage to torpedo the competitiveness of womens sports to accommodate a tiny fraction of women.

I think kids sports is fine, but at the high school and college level it isnt fair.

God you are so full of shit. You are just, completely full of shit. I'm just blocking you now and hope we never speak again tbh.

Go for it my man

In 1988 only 10% of Americans supported Same Sex Marriage.
In 2004, only 39% of Americans supported Same Sex Marriage.
It wasn't until 2009 that Americans started turning around on the issue. By that time, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and New Hampshire had already legalized same sex marriage.

Do you think we'd have the progress we have today if those states hadn't taken those important first steps?

I honestly dont care what you think. If you want to block me because you cant engage with someone who has different values than you then more power to you

This is some extreme TERF bullshit. "Women are weak and inferior to men, and therefore any trans woman is inherently advantaged in competition and should be excluded to protect the weak women. I support women's rights!"

Dancedreamer posted...

In 1988 only 10% of Americans supported Same Sex Marriage.
In 2004, only 39% of Americans supported Same Sex Marriage.
It wasn't until 2009 that Americans started turning around on the issue. By that time, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and New Hampshire had already legalized same sex marriage.

Do you think we'd have the progress we have today if those states hadn't taken those important first steps?

I dont think these things are comparable at all. Government regulating marriage is stupid to begin with. We are talking sports here not transgender rights to be treated as women in any other context

masterplum posted...

I dont think these things are comparable at all. Government regulating marriage is stupid to begin with. We are talking sports here

lolol

I hate this issue because so many people on the left are intentionally obtuse about it, but the alternative is letting Republicans ban people

But like

Inviso posted...

This is some extreme TERF bullshit. "Women are weak and inferior to men, and therefore any trans woman is inherently advantaged in competition and should be excluded to protect the weak women. I support women's rights!"

Women are literally weaker than men yes. There's a reason separate leagues exist. If you merged them, women's presence in sports would vanish overnight. Is that going to happen if trans people play sports? No, but this sort of post that tries to make a false equivalence reads as absurd and is the worst kind of argument to make

masterplum posted...

I dont think these things are comparable at all. Government regulating marriage is stupid to begin with. We are talking sports

"Government should regulate sports, but not marriage" is certainly a take.

masterplum posted...

I really believe degrading womens sports is an attack on women and womens rights is a deep issue to me. It really bothers me the way some men culturally treat women as property and I get the same vibe from some people that they are treating womens sports as some ridiculous afterthought that doesnt matter because it doesnt matter to them.

But like you said, trans athletes make up a tiny proportion of athletes. I dont think its just to set the stage to torpedo the competitiveness of womens sports to accommodate a tiny fraction of women.

It's wild how pervasive this kind of shit is. How is it an attack on women's rights and women when transwomen are women?

What percentage of transwomen athletes win? What sports does being a transwoman give you an advantage in? Anything? Because one of the most recent--and loudest--complaints came from a cis woman skateboarder who lost to a transwoman, but also lost to a literal 13 year old cis girl.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It's wild how pervasive this kind of shit is. How is it an attack on women's rights and women when transwomen are women?

Because they are two different traditionally repressed groups how is this hard to understand.

For the record this is why representation is important, because the life experience of someone born a women and the life experience of someone who transitioned into becoming are two different life experiences

masterplum posted...

Yeah it would. Would it make me vote for fascists? No, but it would certainly make me less likely donate money or encourage people to vote because it would dampen enthusiasm if it became a core issue.

I really believe degrading womens sports is an attack on women and womens rights is a deep issue to me. It really bothers me the way some men culturally treat women as property and I get the same vibe from some people that they are treating womens sports as some ridiculous afterthought that doesnt matter because it doesnt matter to them.

But like you said, trans athletes make up a tiny proportion of athletes. I dont think its just to set the stage to torpedo the competitiveness of womens sports to accommodate a tiny fraction of women.

I think kids sports is fine, but at the high school and college level it isnt fair.

So you're just going full mask off now huh

Kenri posted...

So you're just going full mask off now huh

How the hell is this mask off. We are talking explicitly about sports

masterplum posted...

Because they are two different traditionally repressed groups how is this hard to understand.

For the record this is why representation is important, because the life experience of someone born a women and the life experience of someone who transitioned into becoming are two different life experiences

But youre saying there shouldnt be trans women representation?

Jakyl25 posted...

But youre saying there shouldnt be trans women representation?

There absolutely should be input by trans women.

That is why I led this off by saying his is a tough situation! You have two groups with completely opposite desires

masterplum posted...

There absolutely should be input by trans women.

That is why I led this off by saying his is a tough situation! You have two groups with completely opposite desires

Yeah its like how the KKK and average black people have completely opposite desires. Tough situation!

masterplum posted...

Yeah it would. Would it make me vote for fascists? No, but it would certainly make me less likely donate money or encourage people to vote because it would dampen enthusiasm if it became a core issue.

I really believe degrading womens sports is an attack on women and womens rights is a deep issue to me. It really bothers me the way some men culturally treat women as property and I get the same vibe from some people that they are treating womens sports as some ridiculous afterthought that doesnt matter because it doesnt matter to them.

But like you said, trans athletes make up a tiny proportion of athletes. I dont think its just to set the stage to torpedo the competitiveness of womens sports to accommodate a tiny fraction of women.

I think kids sports is fine, but at the high school and college level it isnt fair.

So you support women so much that you'll reduce funding to the only party trying to keep what little bodily autonomy they have in order to make sure they don't have to play sports with trans people? Seriously?

Oh and guess what: Men are far more likely to oppose trans people playing on teams other than their birth gender (73%) than women (53%). Really glad you're here to protect us.

Now quick! Name 10 female collegiate athletes since you care about women's sports so much.

Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah its like how the KKK and average black people have completely opposite desires. Tough situation!

So comparing people born as women with the KKK huh. Lets see if you get warned for this one

Most cis women dont mind trans women in sports. Only bigoted ones.

It's literal TERF shit. "Transmisogyny isn't REAL misogyny because they're actually men!"

If you want to make the argument that cis women experience misogyny EARLIER, that's one thing, but to call it literally anti-woman (aka misogyny) for transwomen to participate with ciswomen, you are saying transmisogyny isn't misogyny.

Look, if the anti-trans women in sports brigade wanted to argue for more distinct physiological restrictions on sports, there's an argument to be had! But then you need to acknowledge that cisgender people like your Michael Phelps and your Katie Ledecky's would and SHOULD be caught in that too.

Plum arguing that he is doing it for women's rights fucking sent me lmao.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It's literal TERF shit. "Transmisogyny isn't REAL misogyny because they're actually men!"

If you want to make the argument that cis women experience misogyny EARLIER, that's one thing, but to call it literally anti-woman (aka misogyny) for transwomen to participate with ciswomen, you are saying transmisogyny isn't misogyny.

Look, if the anti-trans women in sports brigade wanted to argue for more distinct physiological restrictions on sports, there's an argument to be had! But then you need to acknowledge that cisgender people like your Michael Phelps and your Katie Ledecky's would and SHOULD be caught in that too.

You realize there are bans on steroid, doping and PEDs right?

HRT isnt really comparable to steroids and drugs used to give an advantage imo, but Im not a sports guy

masterplum posted...

You realize there are bans on steroid, doping and PEDs right?

Yes and any trans woman would be subject to those same bans, so whats the issue?

masterplum posted...

You realize there are bans on steroid, doping and PEDs right?

Correct! And that's why it's so telling that everyone who shares your beliefs is 100% focused on "think about the women!!" over transmen who take literal testosterone.

swordz9 posted...

HRT isnt really comparable to steroids and drugs used to give an advantage imo, but Im not a sports guy

Oh of course not, but there literally already are physiological restrictions in sports already.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Correct! And that's why it's so telling that everyone who shares your beliefs is 100% focused on "think about the women!!" over transmen who take literal testosterone.

Because trans men can compete in sports just fine! Literally anyone can compete in major mens sports! Its usually a big deal when a woman tries to do it and everyone roots for her!

masterplum posted...

Oh of course not, but there literally already are physiological restrictions in sports already.

There are weight and PED restrictions, but not for innate physical traits. Usain Bolt absolutely destroyed everyone when he showed up, and not to discount his surely rigorous training, but his freakishly good physique is why!

masterplum posted...

Because trans men can compete in sports just fine! Literally anyone can compete in major mens sports! Its usually a big deal when a woman tries to do it and everyone roots for her!

Unless its Texas, but I assume weve already referenced that somewhere in this maelstrom

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

There are weight and PED restrictions, but not for innate physical traits. Usain Bolt absolutely destroyed everyone when he showed up, and not to discount his surely rigorous training, but his freakishly good physique is why!

EVERYONE can compete at the top level. There are no restrictions on how good you can be in no restrictions leagues

Think I'm just gonna tag plum a transphobe and stay out.

Reminder that plum still hasnt explained why any of this even taken at face value could possibly support blanket bans rather than a case by case basis, because there is no argument for that other than trying to hurt trans people.

plum you made me genuinely furious yesterday with how stupid you act. then you started posting about trans issues. I don't believe you're actually a moron so please for all of our sakes get your head out of your fucking ass

Plum attempting to mask bigoted hatred as "just asking questions and making comparisons, bro!" definitely tracks.

So, in other words...

TheRock1525 posted...

Think I'm just gonna tag plum a transphobe and stay out.

This.

I'm done with plum. Gave him a lot of chances. Tired of trying to change his mind. Not welcome in my brainspace anymore. Get the fuck outta here.

LightningStrikes posted...

Reminder that plum still hasnt explained why any of this even taken at face value could possibly support blanket bans rather than a case by case basis, because there is no argument for that other than trying to hurt trans people.

Because rules aren't created for case by case basis most of the time. You don't want to get sued every time

Paratroopa1 posted...

Tired of trying to change his mind

Maybe try to just have conversations with people first instead of trying to push your views onto them.

I feel like this sort of thing helps me see other peoples perspectives. Sorry you don't feel the same way

masterplum posted...

EVERYONE can compete at the top level. There are no restrictions on how good you can be in no restrictions leagues

Emily Nash wasn't allowed to win an individual trophy (even though she could participate at the team level) in a tournament a few years ago.

masterplum posted...

Maybe try to just have conversations with people first instead of trying to push your views onto them.

Okay yeah this is the kind of reply that makes me cool with just agreeing to tell somebody to fuck off.

"Maybe don't try to screw over large groups of people based on pre-conceived notions and or single examples?"
"No. How dare you suggest that, you are pushing your views on me!"

Fuck. Off.

Dancedreamer posted...

Emily Nash wasn't allowed to win an individual trophy (even though she could participate at the team level) in a tournament a few years ago.

Well she should have been

Well given that you can count the number of trans athletes competing at a high level who have had this issue on one hand I think the associations can afford it. Really, if you want to highlight how much of a non-issue this is, consider that the most high profile athlete to get a ban for an unfair advantage in terms of testosterone is actually a cisgender woman.

Were lazy so lets discriminate is not a great starting argument, plum.