Current Events > Jodie Whittaker deserved better writers for Doctor Who *potential spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

She absolutely fucking crushed the role and was honestly a pretty great Doctor, just very held back by the material she had to work with. Ditto for Sacha Dhawan / The Master. Both of them had exactly the right energy, personality, and quirks for the characters they were portraying but they were completely wasted by the scripts.

They all probably deserve a better writer

Honestly, I'm a bit ambivalent towards Whittaker in the role. I don't think she did anything wrong, and she certainly did more with some pretty dire scripts than a lot of people would have managed, but even at her best I'd probably put her mid-tier. Her best performance for me - and the moment where she most felt like The Doctor - was actually the video she put out in lockdown that she filmed on her phone in her cupboard at home - basically she had the costume in her house so filmed a little skit telling the kids that lockdown/COVID was scary, but The Doctor was their to reassure them, and it was absolutely lovely.

Dhawan was an absolute revelation as The Master, though. It will be a heartbreaking travesty when RTD inevitably recasts the role.

I also would have loved to see how the Paternoster Gang reacted to the Doctor regenerating into a woman, but sadly those characters had been long retired by that point.

Why the fuck did Clara's school kids get a spinoff series but not the Paternoster Gang, that's such a rookie mistake

TomClark posted...

Honestly, I'm a bit ambivalent towards Whittaker in the role. I don't think she did anything wrong, and she certainly did more with some pretty dire scripts than a lot of people would have managed, but even at her best I'd probably put her mid-tier.

See, I think this is a problem with the scripts and direction of the show. Even with what she was able to do, she only had so much leeway to work with. I think it's more a fault that the material she was given didn't actually give her too many opportunities to actually act like the Doctor, and in some cases forced her to do very un-Doctor-like things -- like casually self-imploding an entire TARDIS, which had for so long been established as a sentient, living thing.

TomClark posted...

Her best performance for me - and the moment where she most felt like The Doctor - was actually the video she put out in lockdown that she filmed on her phone in her cupboard at home - basically she had the costume in her house so filmed a little skit telling the kids that lockdown/COVID was scary, but The Doctor was their to reassure them, and it was absolutely lovely.

I've never seen this but I'd really like to, do you have a link to it?

It would have also been great to get a spinoff miniseries, or at least a few specials, where we could actually see the War Doctor during the Time War.

TMOG posted...

I've never seen this but I'd really like to, do you have a link to it?

Sure, here you go:

https://youtu.be/l0ED6CGmjm4

TomClark posted...

Sure, here you go:

https://youtu.be/l0ED6CGmjm4

Thanks!

You're right, that was really good. And again it shows what a perfect, natural fit she was for the role of the Doctor when left to her own devices.

TMOG posted...

It would have also been great to get a spinoff miniseries, or at least a few specials, where we could actually see the War Doctor during the Time War.

If you're open to the expanded universe, there are audio stories (full cast) featuring John Hurt reprising his role.

Personally, I'd put Whittaker at the very bottom of the doctor rankings. Nothing against her at all but outside of a few okay stories the rest are pretty bad and she's strangely passive for most of them letting events unfold around her instead of being a key part of the story. Perhaps she'll get a redemption in the future similar to Colin Baker when she does some audio stories.

TMOG posted...

It would have also been great to get a spinoff miniseries, or at least a few specials, where we could actually see the War Doctor during the Time War.

I know it's clich to say "Big Finish did it..." but Big Finish did several boxsets with John Hurt before he passed.

They start off great, but tbh his death obviously fucked with their plans a bit (not to mention the death of Jacqueline Pearce who played the Ollistra, the other main character not long after), so they carried on the Time War arc with Jacobi's Master, then prequelled it with McGann, and it all got a bit muddled.

Fuck, I forgot that John Hurt had died. :(

Blaming the writers is an excuse, Tom Baker had tons of stinkers, most of his eps were stinkers.

But he shone regardless

Count me among the minority who thought we really didn't need The Master back again so soon. I mean, Missy was gone for just one season, iirc, before we got Loony Tunes. Really messed up Whittaker's second season.

ThyIlls posted...

Count me among the minority who thought we really didn't need The Master back again so soon. I mean, Missy was gone for just one season, iirc, before we got Loony Tunes. Really messed up Whittaker's second season.

I really didn't like Dhawan's take on the Master during Series 12 as it felt like he was copying Simm after having too much sugar but he absolutely nailed it in his appearance in The Power of the Doctor. He was perfect as the Master in that episode and instantly shot up to being one of my favourites. As Tom said above I hope that RTD doesn't recast as Dhawan is made for the role - and we didn't see him regenerate.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Blaming the writers is an excuse, Tom Baker had tons of stinkers, most of his eps were stinkers.

But he shone regardless

Ok so if not the writers and/or showrunners, then who should we blame for bad scripts regardless of the era? Because they definitely aren't the fault of the person acting them out, especially if you're willing to acknowledge that the actor "shone regardless" of the episodes being stinkers.

I'm not excusing the writers. I just don't buy "This character only sucks because of the writers"

TNG season 1 sucks and Picard, Data, Worf etc shone.
Alien 3 sucks but Weaver and Dance shone

TMOG posted...

I also would have loved to see how the Paternoster Gang reacted to the Doctor regenerating into a woman, but sadly those characters had been long retired by that point.

Why the fuck did Clara's school kids get a spinoff series but not the Paternoster Gang, that's such a rookie mistake

>Steven Moffat
>rookie mistake

SaY iT IsN't So!

UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm not excusing the writers. I just don't buy "This character only sucks because of the writers"

Ah ok, that was in response to Trelve then? My bad I thought it was in response to the topic in general

I loved Doctor Who until she came on. I was looking forward to seeing how they would handle a female doctor, but her first few episodes were so bad I completely fell off the series.

I really need to give it another chance

Lvaneede posted...

I loved Doctor Who until she came on. I was looking forward to seeing how they would handle a female doctor, but her first few episodes were so bad I completely fell off the series.

I really need to give it another chance

God I hate to say this because I loved Whittaker's Doctor too, but it's probably for the best if someone made a watch-list for you.

Im really bad at adjusting to a new doctor. I always dislike them when a new one is introduced, except for Tenant. I really didnt like Smith or Capaldi at first but theyve grown on me a lot, to the extent that Smith is probably my favourite now.

I had hoped that was the case for Whittaker but it seems everybody else hates her run too.

TMOG posted...

She absolutely fucking crushed the role and was honestly a pretty great Doctor, just very held back by the material she had to work with. Ditto for Sacha Dhawan / The Master. Both of them had exactly the right energy, personality, and quirks for the characters they were portraying but they were completely wasted by the scripts.

WHAT!!???

I can't belive I have just read that garbage.

Whittaker and Chibnall absolutely DESTROYED Doctor Who. It wasn't theirs to destroy but boy did they do it.

Under Chibnall in it was nothing but PC, SJW garbage.

Lets see now he writes two very mediocre episdoes for Tennant and he gets the job?! What the Hell!!

Whittaker had no right accepting the role. The role should go to fans of the show.

OK then if she was so good like you claim then why did her final season start with 7,500,000 watching but by the end only 3,100,000 were watching. Her final series was getting less viewers than what the classic series was getting when it was axed.

I am not surprised they have brought back Tennant and the greatness that is RTD. They were brought back to save the series.

Here watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_UH4sHzJhY

Worst Doctor Who episodes:

https://screenrant.com/worst-doctor-who-episodes/

The top 5 are all Whittaker episodes.

Lvaneede posted...

I loved Doctor Who until she came on. I was looking forward to seeing how they would handle a female doctor, but her first few episodes were so bad I completely fell off the series.

I really need to give it another chance

I never finished the first season. I liked what I saw from her, but the episodes were really boring and felt kind of drab.

CassandraCroft posted...

Under Chibnall in it was nothing but PC, SJW garbage.

...What Doctor Who were you watching before?

CassandraCroft posted...

OK then if she was so good like you claim then why did her final season start with 7,500,000 watching but by the end only 3,100,000 were watching.

Because, as has been said multiple times in this topic, even though Whittaker was great the writing sucked. People dropped off because they didn't like the plot direction (especially with things like the Timeless Child), not because they didn't like the Doctor.

...Well, some people dropped off as soon as a female Doctor was announced, but those people are the types who call shows with female leads "PC, SJW gar--ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

@TMOG

Doctor Who has always had some sort of message in it even the classic series had a few. For instance Genesis Of The Daleks about destroying life and genocide and there was Nightmare Of Eden about the dangers of drugs and RTD has messages in his episodes but he wasn't ramming it in your face the way Chibnall was doing.

People dropped off because of not just the bad writing but also because Chibnall and Whittaker were garbage.

I do not call female lead series PC, SJW garbage I only call it that when they change the lead character from male to female or vice versa. What DW did was like making the next James Bond female or turning Agatha Christies Miss Marple in to Mr Marple.

Listen if the SJW PC brigade wanted a female Timelady so bad create a spin-off. You could easily have made a series starring Romanadvoratrelundar (Romana) or The Rani or even create a new character you do not go changing 50 years of established canon.

I have never watched Whittaker and never will.

I can't wait until next November when Tennant and RTD return and I will even be giving The Fifteenth Doctor a chance.

CassandraCroft posted...

I have never watched Whittaker and never will.

And this right here shows how accurate I was in my assessment. You're now openly admitting that you never watched her seasons, but still feel qualified to judge whether or not she was a good Doctor because you're

A - Upset that they made the Doctor into a woman for one regeneration
B - Going off of what people on YouTube tell you to think

Literally nothing else you posted matters because you discredited your opinion and position entirely with this one sentence, and in doing so, proved my point beautifully when I said:

TMOG posted...

...Well, some people dropped off as soon as a female Doctor was announced, but those people are the types who call shows with female leads "PC, SJW gar--ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

Actually, I probably could have saved myself the time and completely discounted your opinion an entire post earlier if I just looked at the recent uploads for the YouTube channel you linked.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/3/4/AABrRdAAEHm2.jpg

Holy crapping yikes.

That really says it all.

It's watchable and I do watch reruns, but Chibnall's shitty writing aside, the Doctor was probably the weakest part. She felt like a time lord, but not really the Doctor. I honestly really liked Graham, Ryan and Yaz, but I felt like a female Doctor was pretty unnecessary.

Still, it wasn't all bad. Flux was actually pretty good, but completely shit itself by the end. Also, I really enjoyed Jo Martin's Doctor. Probably the highlight of Whittaker's run everytime Martin showed up, despite the reason she even exited was because of Chibnall's writing.

Jo Martin was INCREDIBLE. Really hoping we see more of her moving forward, even considering the clumsy retcon.

Graham was easily the best companion of the run imo, I loved how he was just genuinely enjoying every second of traveling with the Doctor. Ryan had a lot of potential but unfortunately they kind of wound up writing him more as an accessory to Graham, he never felt like he had any real moments of his own to shine or show off anything that only he could do -- at least none that pop into my head immediately.

Yaz was alright but not great. I'm honestly pretty tired of the concept that every female companion that travels with the Doctor wants a romantic relationship out of it, the only two-and-a-half exceptions of the current era being Donna, Bill, and post-marriage Amy. (And that last one is still kind of on the fence)

I did also really like Dan from the Flux season, pretty disappointed that his exit from the series was so casual and anticlimactic. It was literally a blink-and-you-miss-it goodbye.

Lvaneede posted...

I loved Doctor Who until she came on. I was looking forward to seeing how they would handle a female doctor, but her first few episodes were so bad I completely fell off the series.

I really need to give it another chance

MrMallard posted...

God I hate to say this because I loved Whittaker's Doctor too, but it's probably for the best if someone made a watch-list for you.

I'd say these are the best Whittaker-era episodes. (having said that, for any other doctor these would be mid-tier at best):

The Woman Who Fell to Earth
Kerblam
Spyfall
Fugitive of the Judoon
The Haunting of Villa Diodati
Village of the Angels
The Power of the Doctor

TMOG posted...

Yaz was alright but not great. I'm honestly pretty tired of the concept that every female companion that travels with the Doctor wants a romantic relationship out of it, the only two-and-a-half exceptions of the current era being Donna, Bill, and post-marriage Amy. (And that last one is still kind of on the fence)

Honestly, after Dhawan I think Yaz was the second best part of the era.

She got some deserved criticism in her first season for fading into the background a lot and not really having anything to do (Demons... aside), but her development and growth was probably one of the things that Chibnall did best in his era, in that it felt like a natural progression. When she spent years effectively being the lead by herself in Flux it felt earned - it wasn't like Martha spending a year uniting the world in Last of the Time Lords just because all the other characters tell us she's brilliant, but rather it was a case of "well of course Yaz is in charge now." When Yaz is left with Dan and Jericho as her companions it felt like she'd naturally reached a point where she could cope in that role. A lot of the Chibnall era being a badly written weirdly makes the good parts harder to notice, but I genuinely think she had one of the best written and most organic character arcs of any NuWho companion.

Best DW regeneration ever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbD2VxtGJk

Away with the utter crap that was Chibnall and Whittaker and bringing back the greatness that is Tennant and RTD.

@TMOG just face facts that Whittaker and Chibnall DESTROYED DW.

The BBC Bringing back Tennant and RTD is a saving throw for the series.

Oh and in my opinion anyone who likes Whittaker makes their opinions invalid.

Trelve posted...

I'd say these are the best Whittaker-era episodes. (having said that, for any other doctor these would be mid-tier at best):

The Woman Who Fell to Earth
Kerblam
Spyfall
Fugitive of the Judoon
The Haunting of Villa Diodati
Village of the Angels
The Power of the Doctor

I'd also add Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, and The Witchfinders to that list as well. They're all three pretty good episodes that are also very reminiscent of the First Doctor stories that focused on actual historic events.

I also kind of liked It Takes You Away for the concept alone, but the ending did get a bit silly.

Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror was fun too.

TomClark posted...

She got some deserved criticism in her first season for fading into the background a lot and not really having anything to do (Demons... aside), but her development and growth was probably one of the things that Chibnall did best in his era, in that it felt like a natural progression. When she spent years effectively being the lead by herself in Flux it felt earned - it wasn't like Martha spending a year uniting the world in Last of the Time Lords just because all the other characters tell us she's brilliant, but rather it was a case of "well of course Yaz is in charge now. When Yaz is left with Dan and Jericho as her companions it felt like she'd naturally reached a point where she could cope in that role. A lot of the Chibnall era being a badly written weirdly makes the good parts harder to notice, but I genuinely think she had one of the best written and most organic character arcs of any NuWho companion.

You know what, yeah, that's pretty fair.

Trelve posted...

I'd say these are the best Whittaker-era episodes. (having said that, for any other doctor these would be mid-tier at best):

The Woman Who Fell to Earth
Kerblam
Spyfall
Fugitive of the Judoon
The Haunting of Villa Diodati
Village of the Angels
The Power of the Doctor

This is a fair list (though I'd add Eve of The Daleks - I'd put that at least on the same "it's lightweight shallow fun" level as most of RTD's festive outings).

The Power Of The Doctor, though, I would class as genuinely excellent. Does it make much sense? Probably not. Does it completely sack off all of the ongoing plot threads to leave them (presumably permanently) unresolved? Absolutely. Is it coasting by on nostalgia for the classic era? In the most shameless way possible!

But I enjoyed it more than any episode since Day of The Doctor, almost because of rather than in spite of those criticisms.

It was fun, it was nostalgic, and Ace smacked up a Dalek with a baseball bat again while Five said "Brave Heart" to Tegan. And I loved it.

CassandraCroft posted...

Oh and in my opinion anyone who likes Whittaker makes their opinions invalid.

You literally admitted you never watched it and base all your opinions off of a clickbait redpill channel. You don't even have an opinion.

This is the last reply you'll get from me in this topic and I encourage everybody else to follow my example here.

CassandraCroft posted...

The BBC Bringing back Tennant and RTD is a saving throw for the series.

Tennant is just for a few episodes. Ncuti Gatwa is the next Doctor after him.

TMOG posted...

You literally admitted you never watched it and base all your opinions off of a clickbait redpill channel. You don't even have an opinion.

No I did not get my opinions from that channel. I had my opinions long before I watched that video. I found that video one time on a Youtube search too see if anyone else thought like me that Chibnall and Whittaker had destroyed DW.

I posted that video to show you that I am in THE MAJORITY who think that Chibnall and Whittaker were disastrous for DW.

As soon as I heard that The BBC planned to make the Thirteenth Doctor female I had no plans to ever watch it.

"Oohh look lets create The Timeless Child and throw 50 years of established canon out the TARDIS doors"! Oh good grief.

Anyone who thinks Whittaker is great doesn't have an opinion.

CassandraCroft posted...

"Oohh look lets create The Timeless Child and throw 50 years of established canon out the TARDIS doors"! Oh good grief.

In fairness, The Timeless Child is just the Cartmel Masterplan with a new name - it's literally where the story was going had the show not been cancelled in '89, so all the foreshadowing in the McCoy era still holds true to it, while it also explicitly ties back to The Brain of Morbius in Whittaker's second season.

There's nothing at all in the Timeless Child arc itself that contradicts anything in established canon, and in fact it makes a lot of things make more sense.

Jo Martin's Doctor doesn't really fit with canon on the face of it, since she shouldn't have a TARDIS that looks like a Police Box, and shouldn't go by the name "The Doctor " but The Power of The Doctor strongly hints that she fits in to Season 6b, so it's no more of an issue than Two appearing in The Five and The Two Doctors.

TomClark posted...

while it also explicitly ties back to The Brain of Morbius in Whittaker's second season.

T. Baker, not Whittaker :p

TMOG posted...

T. Baker, not Whittaker :p

I mean the callback happens in Whittaker's second season, haha.

TomClark posted...

Jo Martin's Doctor doesn't really fit with canon on the face of it, since she shouldn't have a TARDIS that looks like a Police Box, and shouldn't go by the name "The Doctor " but The Power of The Doctor strongly hints that she fits in to Season 6b, so it's no more of an issue than Two appearing in The Five and The Two Doctors.

I actually had a theory before the reveal that she was a Doctor from a parallel world like the one Ten left Rose and his clone in, or a deviant regeneration cycle that split off when one of the earlier Doctors somehow was forced into regenerating a second time but earlier (time travel is confusing lol). It may just be "I came up with it" bias, but it honestly feels like either of these would have made more sense than the way it was handled with the plot holes you already pointed out.

Actually, hell, combine the two theories above. She regenerated off of Ten's clone when he figured out how to grant himself a new regeneration cycle and become a Time Lord again. It worked for The Master back in the original series, after all.

TMOG posted...

I actually had a theory before the reveal that she was a Doctor from a parallel world like the one Ten left Rose and his clone in, or a deviant regeneration cycle that split off when one of the earlier Doctors somehow was forced into regenerating a second time but earlier (time travel is confusing lol). It may just be "I came up with it" bias, but it honestly feels like either of these would have made more sense than the way it was handled with the plot holes you already pointed out.

That could work, tbf.

I lean more towards 6B since it semi-officially confirms there was already has a period where The Doctor is somewhat unwillingly doing covert operations for The Time Lords with his memory of these times probably removed afterwards, so the setup itself is already there, while The Master mentioning in TPOTD that the Time Lords forced a regeneration on The Doctor more than just when Two became Three felt very much like a "so if you want to believe Troughton became Martin became Pertwee then this is the line you can use to support that, whatever, it's my last episode, do what you want" moment from Chibnall, haha.

TomClark posted...

That could work, tbf.

I lean more towards 6B since it semi-officially confirms there was already has a period where The Doctor is somewhat unwillingly doing covert operations for The Time Lords with his memory of these times probably removed afterwards, so the setup itself is already there, while The Master mentioning in TPOTD that the Time Lords forced a regeneration on The Doctor more than just when Two became Three felt very much like a "so if you want to believe Troughton became Martin became Pertwee then this is the line you can use to support that, whatever, it's my last episode, do what you want" moment from Chibnall, haha.

You know what, I wouldn't mind if that was the true timeline of events and the Timeless Child was just the Master fucking with the Doctor's head again.

TMOG posted...

You know what, I wouldn't mind if that was the true timeline of events and the Timeless Child was just the Master fucking with the Doctor's head again.

Both can be true, to be fair:

The Timeless Child/The "Other" is used by the Time Lords to create regeneration, working with/for The Division, before eventually being Chameleon Arch'd into a Timelord him/herself, and left as a child on their first Time Lord life in the orphanage from Heaven Sent/Hell Bent - as a backstory this has been hinted at in Classic Who and doesn't fuck with anything continuity-wise.

Then, after this, that Time Lord grows up, takes the name "The Doctor," steals a TARDIS and runs away, leading into the events of An Unearthly Child. After being captured by the Time Lords again, The Doctor is forced to regenerate and exiled to Earth, but not before that regeneration is hijacked and a shadier element of the Time Lords coerce The Doctor into doing special off-the-books operations for them. Again, this happens in the Classic series and doesn't interfere with continuity.

So long as Jo Martin fits into the latter paragraph not the former, there's no reason why it doesn't fit snugly into the established sequence of events without any headaches at all.

It's when you try and put The Fugitive Doctor into events prior to her being turned into the Time Lord that becomes the First Doctor that it all falls apart, and up until The Master's line in The Power of The Doctor that is pretty much what was being implied, unfortunately.

Ah well, I'm sure Big Finish will clear it all up at some point, haha.

I just realized how pointless it really is for us to use spoiler tags in a topic where it's implied that the whole series up to the current point will be fair game for spoilers anyway lol