Current Events > Wait... People are mad that there are black elves and black dwarves?

(+) Yeah! (+)

ScazarMeltex posted...

o if you want to tell that story you have to either create a new character to act as audience proxy, or you adapt an already existing one.

Please this is more garbage from you. They can't tell the stories from the simarillion because they don't have the rights to it. That is the only reason. Not because they don't have characters to follow, how ridiculous.

And there is an incredibly easy story to tell should they take that route, simply follow the Noldor after Morgoth stole the Silmarillions. Hell, there are hundreds of places they could have started and made a story by following important individuals from literally anywhere from Minas Ithil to Erebor.

Don't give me this "history book" crap. Some of the best stories ever told were originally outlined as histories, including stories like A Song of Ice and Fire. The writers simply can't utilize these histories because they don't have the rights. This is not just a "twisting of the lore" it is straight up fan fiction.

There is little worse than a narrative that is not only not respecting the lore, but is actually bound to avoid it. They should not have made this show covering these events with what they have the rights to, period.

miki_sauvester posted...

Yes, they are both based off Europeans. Other races had different fictional counterparts in the Tolkein universe (which I don't consider this Amazon show to be a part of).

It's a great part of the Tolkien universe tbh

Gamerguymass posted...

The issue is why it is only stories based off of European history/myth/legend/folklore that needs to be made "diverse" and not anything else

1. What are you talking about
2. Lord of the rings isn't set in Europe
3. Dwarves aren't real etc.

miki_sauvester posted...

Yes, they are both based off Europeans. Other races had different fictional counterparts in the Tolkein universe (which I don't consider this Amazon show to be a part of).

If only it was made in a fictional world that already had rules that broke real world standards and created its own. It would make it so convenient to create lore around the inclusion of others so that people who don't look one way can also see people they relate to that look like them in their favorite stories. That would be cool because it would no longer create the image for kids that only one race is assigned to the important and heroic roles in life. But if people find being petty over established lore rather than seeing the beauty of kids of other races also feeling included as a vital part of the world that has meant so much to millions, then....damn. Just seems selfish and embarrassing that a grown person would put their precious established lore over kids everywhere getting to feel included.

I love saying this lately, because of how true it rings tbh. Our generation is one the first that doesn't want to give up any of our toys lol. We feel like all games and entertainment should always be made for us and we should never give up our toys to the next generation. You don't even gotta stop playing with toys, just let them be inspired for kids again and not grown men.

ThePopcornKing posted...

1. What are you talking about
2. Lord of the rings isn't set in Europe
3. Dwarves aren't real etc.

Tolkien himself has said Lord of the Rings is based on English/European folklore.

That dude in this topic is big fucking mad about this show Jesus, Im a Tolkien junkie to the point of reading the majority of related works, and having it tattooed on my body, and even Im pleasantly surprised with the show.

obviously liberties were taken, if you didnt expect that from the second this show was announced youre a psycho, were just wishing for an enjoyable watch.

Yeah maybe Galadriel cant swim across an ocean or Durin IV and V cant canonically be around at the same time, etc but in the grand scheme of things I thing the first two episodes are better than anything we could have hopef for

I find it odd that the elves have stylish haircuts and hair styles and not just long hair.

Yall will notice nobody screeching about Nori being white though.

Gremlynn posted...
Returning_CEmen posted...

I find it odd that the elves have stylish haircuts and hair styles and not just long hair.

this is probably the most distracting thing for me so far lmao, Gil galad and just his face and the casting and the haircut was making me and my gf giggle

They should've just created the show around an entirely new fantasy story, and replace the one ring with some other mcguffin. That would've gotten around the whole "these characters can't be cast as these races" thing. In Tolkien's story, races were analogous to a real life counterpart, subject to Tolkien's bias. For example, dwarves were inspired by Jewish people in general, the men in the east by literal Middle Easterners, etc.

Gamerguymass posted...

Tolkien himself has said Lord of the Rings is based on English/European folklore.

It would surprise you to know black people existed in Europe, too.

If everyone is arguing about the wokeness, no one will notice the bad screenplay

lolife67 posted...

It would surprise you to know black people existed in Europe, too.

I mean, he knows, he just can't openly express his anger at this fact because it would get him modded. Fortunately, for him, he can just lie and imply that there were not, white washing history by omission.

People just want to have shows were they don't have to look at black people. It isn't anything more complicated then that.

I think adapting something is all about making it good at the end of the day, even if that means changing things around.

Like the MCU is obviously mostly based on actual storylines from the comics, but most of them are also wildly different and are just kind of borrowing some basic elements. They still turn out great.

Whats super racist is that the "Black" elf isn't even black. He's Puerto Rican lol.

HovaRex posted...

Whats super racist is that the "Black" elf isn't even black. He's Puerto Rican lol.

Which makes the people concern trolling about but why no Latino/Asians mighty sus.

McMarbles posted...

Which makes the people concern trolling about but why no Latino/Asians mighty sus.

Why would it be sus? Wouldn't it just be uninformed? I feel like you're trying to create the illusion of an intention that isn't there

TheShadowViper posted...

He created the series and made his son the steward of it. The idea that this is comparable to two randoms that a corporate behemoth like Amazon hired to throw something on screen is utterly laughable. They are NOT CLOSE to similar.

Take that garbage argument somewhere else.

And the Tolkien estate allowed multiple film adaptations and video game projects to twist the lore far more significantly than Amazon has in the past. Why is it only an issue now?

Gamerguymass posted...

Tolkien himself has said Lord of the Rings is based on English/European folklore.

Is it your sincere belief that Europe was only ever populated by people with white skin?

Lost_All_Senses posted...

Why would it be sus? Wouldn't it just be uninformed? I feel like you're trying to create the illusion of an intention that isn't there

I guess the thought is, if they were truly so concerned then they'd actually fact check. Otherwise it does look more like "concern trolling."

If you don't like this show ignoring the book canon, then just don't watch it.

Just pretend it never happened. You don't have to just gobble up whatever your corporate masters set in front of you just because it's there.

People getting mad at Lord of the Rings GT.

lolife67 posted...

I guess the thought is, if they were truly so concerned then they'd actually fact check. Otherwise it does look more like "concern trolling."

Neh. Because they're concerned about the overall state of things and not just this one specific show. They're more so zoomed out and looking at a bigger picture. That's what makes it seem petty when others will die on the hill you deem as small in the grand scheme of a much bigger goal.

Its non-canon so who cares.

Hornswoggled posted...

If you don't like this show ignoring the book canon, then just don't watch it.

Just pretend it never happened. You don't have to just gobble up whatever your corporate masters set in front of you just because it's there.

trust me, it's very freeing when you realize you can just not participate.

You know what I did when I heard about what was going on with The Last Jedi? I just never watched the damn movie, and my life is no worse for it.

It's OK guys, the roles just went to the best actors anyways so it's all OK.

I don't give a shit about the skin color of the actors. I care about the lore of Middle Earth, and so far this show is SHITTING on it.

SPOILERS AHEAD

Gil-galad having the authority to send anyone to the blessed lands at this point of the second age is laughable. Him having any authority over Galadriel at all is insane (she is either his great aunt or he is her second cousin, been awhile since I read parts of the Silmarillion)

She also should be married to Celeborn and have a daughter by now (who ends up marrying Elrond, which is weird considering the show seems to be hinting at romantic feelings between them). Elrond himself should have a higher stature as he is the son of Earendil. He's not a pure blooded elf but for him to be excluded from the meeting because he wasn't a "Lord" is ridiculous.

Galadriel would have never, EVER, been convinced to even sail for Valinor in the second age. She was too prideful and wanted her own kingdom in the West. In fact, at this point she was straight up banned from ever going back.

I would have been much happier with the show if they picked lesser known characters to focus on, or at least less important ones. Hell, create brand new ones to mess around with like they did Arondir and Bronwyn. That storyline so far is the only one that didn't annoy me.

I'm also irritated that they picked one of the most powerful characters on middle earth to depict and then just depowered her? Galadriel is one of the only elves to have seen the Trees and as such has powers that others do not. She can basically mind read people and sense their hidden desires etc. She would have known her soldiers were going to "mutiny" loooooooong before they ever did.

I'd like the show a lot more if they replaced Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Elrond with random elves.

Allanon23 posted...

I don't give a shit about the skin color of the actors. I care about the lore of Middle Earth, and so far this show is SHITTING on it.

SPOILERS AHEAD

Gil-galad having the authority to send anyone to the blessed lands at this point of the second age is laughable. Him having any authority over Galadriel at all is insane (she is either his great aunt or he is her second cousin, been awhile since I read parts of the Silmarillion)

She also should be married to Celeborn and have a daughter by now (who ends up marrying Elrond, which is weird considering the show seems to be hinting at romantic feelings between them). Elrond himself should have a higher stature as he is the son of Earendil. He's not a pure blooded elf but for him to be excluded from the meeting because he wasn't a "Lord" is ridiculous.

Galadriel would have never, EVER, been convinced to even sail for Valinor in the second age. She was too prideful and wanted her own kingdom in the West. In fact, at this point she was straight up banned from ever going back.

I would have been much happier with the show if they picked lesser known characters to focus on, or at least less important ones. Hell, create brand new ones to mess around with like they did Arondir and Bronwyn. That storyline so far is the only one that didn't annoy me.

I'm also irritated that they picked one of the most powerful characters on middle earth to depict and then just depowered her? Galadriel is one of the only elves to have seen the Trees and as such has powers that others do not. She can basically mind read people and sense their hidden desires etc. She would have known her soldiers were going to "mutiny" loooooooong before they ever did.

I'd like the show a lot more if they replaced Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Elrond with random elves.

This is all fair.

I wish they would have gone back further as well, but once again i feel like we could have so so so much worse from this... It could still be going that direction, but yeah

Lost_All_Senses posted...

Why would it be sus? Wouldn't it just be uninformed? I feel like you're trying to create the illusion of an intention that isn't there

Ive seen a lot of concern trolling in my day. I recognize the signs.

Hornswoggled posted...

If you don't like this show ignoring the book canon, then just don't watch it.

Just pretend it never happened. You don't have to just gobble up whatever your corporate masters set in front of you just because it's there.

Youd be surprised how difficult that (apparently) is for some people. Ill never understand why people subject themselves to things they dont have to that obviously upset them.

Its like some weird desire to be mad at something.

McMarbles posted...

Ive seen a lot of concern trolling in my day. I recognize the signs.

Or you got accustom to assigning things as "concern trolling" to shrink the world around you and make it feel like a less complicated place to understand.

Crescente posted...

Def need more Asian and Hispanic diversity if we're going to go this route.

I dont think Asia and Spain exists on middle Earth.

Anyone that cares about this is not someone that I care to have a discussion with.

rexcrk posted...

Youd be surprised how difficult that (apparently) is for some people. Ill never understand why people subject themselves to things they dont have to that obviously upset them.

Its like some weird desire to be mad at something.

But then again, it can be a lucrative business model.

Many Youtube careers were launched by incessantly talking about how much they hated The Last Jedi.

So what do I know?

meestermj posted...

Anyone rhat cares about this is not someone that I care to gave a discussion with.

The only correct opinion, especially when it comes to fictional elves and wizards and shit.

I think it's fucked up to posthumously alter a universe/world that someone created and won't watch the show because of that. There's plenty of things that Tolkien wrote that could have been adapted without doing so.

meestermj posted...

Anyone that cares about this is not someone that I care to have a discussion with.

Pretty much this. It's along the same lines of the backlash against GTA 3: San Andreas. "Do I HAVE to play as a black guy?"

CableZL posted...

Pretty much this. It's along the same lines of the backlash against GTA 3: San Andreas. "Do I HAVE to play as a black guy?"

Those are completely different situations. People that bitched about CJ being black were just being racist, though I think most of it was just trolling. CJ was a brand new character made up for the game who could be any race at all.

People complaining about this are complaining about the showrunners taking established characters/races, who were described already in the books as having been of a particular skin tone, and changing what that skin tone is. Two different situations.

Gamerguymass posted...

Those are completely different situations. People that bitched about CJ being black were just being racist, though I think most of it was just trolling. CJ was a brand new character made up for the game who could be any race at all.

People complaining about this are complaining about the showrunners taking established characters/races, who were described already in the books as having been of a particular skin tone, and changing what that skin tone is. Two different situations.

Yes, two different situations.

Both by racists though.

Gamerguymass posted...

Those are completely different situations. People that b****ed about CJ being black were just being racist, though I think most of it was just trolling. CJ was a brand new character made up for the game who could be any race at all.

People complaining about this are complaining about the showrunners taking established characters/races, who were described already in the books as having been of a particular skin tone, and changing what that skin tone is. Two different situations.

I'm really not sure why that matters. They don't seem to complain when characters described as having darker skin tones are changed to white.

CableZL posted...

I'm really not sure why that matters. They don't seem to complain when characters described as having darker skin tones are changed to white.

Are there any? I honestly can't think of any recent examples off the top of my head from anything most people know very well. More often then not it's the other way around these days.

It matters whenever there is a story being done from outside European roots, even from made up fictional places, yet somehow when it comes to stories based off of white cultures/civilizations/etc all of a sudden it doesn't matter. The double standard seems kind of racist to me.

Gamerguymass posted...

Are there any? I honestly can't think of any recent examples off the top of my head from anything most people know very well.

You're literally exhibit A of what I'm talking about. It's a big deal to you when a character described as white is changed to another race, but you care so little about characters being changed to white that it doesn't even occur to you that it happened.

Gamerguymass posted...

Are there any? I honestly can't think of any recent examples off the top of my head from anything most people know very well. More often then not it's the other way around these days.

There are plenty of examples going back though, I'm sure. I know that Julia Roberts was almost cast as Harriet Tubman in the 90s before she said that was fucking ridiculous or something like that.

Nobody complained when the Corsairs of Umbar were changed from European to ambiguously ethnic.

g0ldie posted...

I remember when you made a topic complaining about the dude who plays Corlys in House of the Dragon because he was black.

People used to complain that Barack Obama was black and therefore he was unfit to be president.

Allanon23 posted...

There are plenty of examples going back though, I'm sure. I know that Julia Roberts was almost cast as Harriet Tubman in the 90s before she said that was fucking ridiculous or something like that.

It literally happened in She Hulk episode 3, to (what used to be) a fairly well known villain.
Turned a black character white. There's even a topic on it from when the episode dropped.

Remember when we made Egyptian movies that were full of white people?

Jesus

• Born in the middle east
• Revelation 1:14-15: "14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters."
• Portrayed as a white man in churches all over the place

Doctor Strange's The Ancient One

• https://i.imgur.com/X50GTO5.png
• Clearly an Asian man in the comics, as originally drawn
• Changed to a white woman in the MCU

Just a couple examples. You could easily ignore black elves and black dwarves the way you do with whitewashing, but you don't.

"Are there any?"

Good lord