Current Events > Self-made rich Capitalists who say things are going fine.

(+) Yeah! (+)

YugiNoob posted...

The hell? So then no one ever got anywhere by themselves ever, since they needed their parents to take care of them after birth? They could chop down trees to build a lemonade stand with lemons they grew themselves using water they collected and purified themselves, but they still wouldnt be self-made unless they made the clothes on their back and fed themselves as newborns?

This is infact something that is well known in that people with lower income shit educations tend to do much poorer in life, so you have come to a realization that you should take to heart.

Elon Musk for instance had a father who was a multi-millionaire and got where he was by starting a company with his brother who also had a father who was a multi-millionaire.
They grew up around rich people who had started companies and such.

Compare them to a kid in the ghetto. They have the same chance at success?

YugiNoob posted...

The hell? So then no one ever got anywhere by themselves ever, since they needed their parents to take care of them after birth?

Not entirely by themselves, no.

Everyone relies on some aspect of society that they aren't responsible for to get to where they are today.

Bezos received $300,000 from his parents to start Amazon.

Elon Musk's dad owned a mining company in Apartheid South Africa and his dad was filthy rich, as were the parents of Bill Gates.

Hell, ALL of these guys own multibillion dollar corporations that are only successful because of laborers doing the work that produces company profits.

So who are these so-called "self-made billionaires" you guys speak of?

Shablagoo posted...

Uhh, yes? Lol. Yes, no one ever got anywhere by themselves. Its completely asinine to say otherwise.

Thats such a weird way to look at this.

oh ya, and did we mention certain companies owned by billionaires would have FAILED if not for government subsidies?

but I guess we should just call that hardwork or skill

YugiNoob posted...

Thats such a weird way to look at this.

It is not. Do you think Hawking could not claim disability benefits?

@YugiNoob

Now imagine if that didn't exist. Imagine if braile never existed. There would be no Stephen Hawkings.

The point is, to say certain individuals are super self made and everyone else sucks and deserves to be poor and such, is the dumbest thing to ever say.
Because programs designed to help such poor people are the reason why people like Hawkings was able to get where they are.

The idea that smart people will just float to the top is false. People need assistance and by assisting them we help ourselves as well.

Rich people simps remind me of some of the nerdy kids in my 7th grade class that would do stuff for the popular preppy kids to get them to like them and be friends with them.

They never became friends.

People like Musk and Bezos who started their fortune thanks to their rich background are clear examples of not being self-made, but to say that someone isnt that just because they have used something that someone else created, especially when its unavoidable, is incredibly pedantic. Like you could say that they cant be self-made because they walked on the planet since they didnt create it.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Not entirely by themselves, no.

Everyone relies on some aspect of society that they aren't responsible for to get to where they are today.

Bezos received $300,000 from his parents to start Amazon.

Elon Musk's dad owned a mining company in Apartheid South Africa and his dad was filthy rich, as were the parents of Bill Gates.

Hell, ALL of these guys own multibillion dollar corporations that are only successful because of laborers doing the work that produces company profits.

So who are these so-called "self-made billionaires" you guys speak of?

Better than that:"Mary Gates played a big part early on in the success of her son Bill and Microsoft. Being on the board of United Way, she met the CEO of IBM, who was eventually introduced to Bill Gates. This encounter eventually led to Microsoft and IBM striking the software deal." - https://www.biography.com/video/bill-gates-help-from-mom-2080036377

As Carl Sagan states:"To make an apple pie from scratch, first you must create the universe."

YugiNoob posted...

People like Musk and Bezos who started their fortune thanks to their rich background are clear examples of not being self-made, but to say that someone isnt that just because they have used something that someone else created, especially when its unavoidable, is incredibly pedantic. Like you could say that they cant be self-made because they walked on the planet since they didnt create it.

What is society?
Why do you need to believe the myth that a person can be self-made?

And what is that supposed to even fucking mean since you have gutted the meaning from it saying a person who literally cannot get up in the morning by themselves can be self-made?

YugiNoob posted...

People like Musk and Bezos who started their fortune thanks to their rich background are clear examples of not being self-made, but to say that someone isnt that just because they have used something that someone else created, especially when its unavoidable, is incredibly pedantic. Like you could say that they cant be self-made because they walked on the planet since they didnt create it.

that's a dumb reason.

the real reason why no one is self-made is that everyone had help.

YugiNoob posted...

People like Musk and Bezos who started their fortune thanks to their rich background are clear examples of not being self-made, but to say that someone isnt that just because they have used something that someone else created, especially when its unavoidable, is incredibly pedantic. Like you could say that they cant be self-made because they walked on the planet since they didnt create it.

Then who is self-made?

It's also not pedantic to point out that someone benefits from a certain aspect of society that others may not have access to through no fault of their own.

WingsOfGood posted...

It is not. Do you think Hawking could not claim disability benefits?

@YugiNoob

Now imagine if that didn't exist. Imagine if braile never existed. There would be no Stephen Hawkings.

The point is, to say certain individuals are super self made and everyone else sucks and deserves to be poor and such, is the dumbest thing to ever say.
Because programs designed to help such poor people are the reason why people like Hawkings was able to get where they are.

The idea that smart people will just float to the top is false. People need assistance and by assisting them we help ourselves as well.

You guys seem to be misunderstanding the whole thing. Im not saying that certain people are self-made and that those who lack talent suck. Im saying that its extremely ridiculous to say that the fact that youre discounting people for things completely unrelated to their accomplishments seems unfair to them.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

It's also not pedantic to point out that someone benefits from a certain aspect of society that others may not have access to through no fault of their own.

Exactly.

He also was born at the right place, because if he was born in 1941 in Nazi Germany, he would have been killed.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Then who is self-made?

It's also not pedantic to point out that someone benefits from a certain aspect of society that others may not have access to through no fault of their own.

No one, according to you guys

In fact, theres probably not a single self-made rich person on this planet. But thats using a reasonable scale. Everyone got rich with the help of others, likely due to hiring, winning the lottery, etc. But what Im saying is that your guys metrics are way too over the top.

YugiNoob posted...

Im saying that its extremely ridiculous to say that the fact that youre discounting people for things completely unrelated to their accomplishments seems unfair to them.

It is actually a paradox to say someone like Hawkings is a genius but then prop him up the way you are doing. It is like comparing someone born as a piano prodigy to someone who learned to play at the age of 41 and saying "wow, that prodigy has so many more accomplishments than the other guy!"
Are you trying to say he was just an average dude who studied alot?

This is why we need to not discount people for things completely RELATED to their accomplishments.
And that is why we should recognize the need for social programs, assistance and stop pretending hard work or skill gets you everywhere.

YugiNoob posted...

Im saying that its extremely ridiculous to say that the fact that youre discounting people for things completely unrelated to their accomplishments seems unfair to them.

You know what's unfair? That there's probably some kid who has the potential to be way "smarter" than Gates, Bezos or Musk who will never get the opportunity to aspire to their level of success because he lost the genetic lottery.

That to me sounds like a bigger injustice than pointing out that billionaires aren't so supremely superior to the common mortal man that it justifies their massive fortunes.

averagejoel posted...

the real reason why no one is self-made is that everyone had help.

This is really all there is to it tbh.

WingsOfGood posted...

It is actually a paradox

Survivorship bias is a logical fallacy, not a paradox.

WingsOfGood posted...

It is actually a paradox to say someone like Hawkings is a genius but then prop him up the way you are doing. It is like comparing someone born as a piano prodigy to someone who learned to play at the age of 41 and saying "wow, that prodigy has so many more accomplishments than the other guy!"
Are you trying to say he was just an average dude who studied alot?

This is why we need to not discount people for things completely RELATED to their accomplishments.
And that is why we should recognize the need for social programs, assistance and stop pretending hard work or skill gets you everywhere.

Ive never argued otherwise. Social programs helping those in need are very important

ellis123 posted...

Survivorship bias is a logical fallacy, not a paradox.

what are you on about

I was discussing calling someone a genius but then saying actually they just like everyone else and just studied harder or put in the time.

YugiNoob posted...

Ive never argued otherwise. Social programs helping those in need are very important

Ok. Well I don't think Hawking was even mildly rich so...

This thread is more about business people who have made their riches off of other people doing the labor, but then going on about how self-made they are.
For example Elon doesn't make the cars, he doesn't even design them. He pays people to do that for him.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

You know what's unfair? That there's probably some kid who has the potential to be way "smarter" than Gates, Bezos or Musk who will never get the opportunity to aspire to their level of success because he lost the genetic lottery.

That to me sounds like a bigger injustice than pointing out that billionaires aren't so supremely superior to the common mortal man that it justifies their massive fortunes.

It is an injustice, since there are probably countless people who could greatly benefit humanity but were just born in nations that dont allow that due to lack of opportunity

WingsOfGood posted...

what are you on about

I was discussing calling someone a genius but then saying actually they just like everyone else and just studied harder or put in the time.

You called a logical fallacy a paradox.

ellis123 posted...

You called a logical fallacy a paradox.

Might want to re-read that post bro

WingsOfGood posted...

Ok. Well I don't think Hawking was even mildly rich so...

This thread is more about business people who have made their riches off of other people doing the labor, but then going on about how self-made they are.

Apologies then, I guess we both misunderstood. Because people who have minimum wage employees toiling away for them while they make 9 digits is most certainly not self-made

YugiNoob posted...

Apologies then, I guess we both misunderstood. Because people who have minimum wage employees toiling away for them while they make 9 digits is most certainly not self-made

No problem. Anyways, I mention the social programs that Hawkings had at his disposal because the people who hate having these programs the most and try to not pay for them are these same business people who claim they are self-made.
That is why they rave about it so much. They basically say that everyone should be like them and they shouldn't have to pay taxes to help other people.

WingsOfGood posted...

No problem. Anyways, I mention the social programs that Hawkings had at his disposal because the people who hate having these programs the most and try to not pay for them are these same business people who claim they are self-made.
That is why they rave about it so much. They basically say that everyone should be like them and they shouldn't have to pay taxes to help other people.

Yeah, we really do need more programs helping people because chances are that itll give us more people who can improve the world. Not to mention its a pretty dick move just to leave people to suffer in general

WingsOfGood posted...

No problem. Anyways, I mention the social programs that Hawkings had at his disposal because the people who hate having these programs the most and try to not pay for them are these same business people who claim they are self-made.
That is why they rave about it so much. They basically say that everyone should be like them and they shouldn't have to pay taxes to help other people.

I also find it telling how the framing of "get ahead" is often used for this.

it's actually a pretty accurate way of thinking about capitalism: in order to "get ahead", it's necessary that there are many people for you to be ahead of. it's essentially another way of phrasing what I said in post 30