Current Events > Democrats fall flat with 'Latinx' language

(+) Yeah! (+)

Notti posted...

EmbraceOfDeath posted...

Aww you actually think you know what you're talking about, how cute.

So what you're trying to tell me is maaaaaaaybe WHITE PEOPLE invaded Spanish speaking spaces and FORCED THEMSELVES onto the poor LGBT community in the 1990s.

How cute.

@joe40001

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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/261-politics/79603497?jumpto=306#306

https://www.latinorebels.com/2015/12/05/the-case-for-latinx-why-intersectionality-is-not-a-choice/
The Case FOR Latinx: Why Intersectionality Is Not a Choice, Dec 5, 2015
By: Mara R. Scharrn-del Ro and Alan A. Aja
================

g0ldie posted...

one thing - just because a small minority of people might use it, it doesn't invalidate it.

it's still a relatively new term that grew from the desire of others to have a classification that was more inclusive, and you're going to have some pushback from older, prevailing attitudes.

it's not like we haven't seen similar struggles in English speaking areas, and that those struggles don't still exist.

The way I see it is similar to people taking down Confederate monuments.

Some people just see it as "That statue has been there foreva! How dare you!"

This is just an attempted internal conversion by Hispanics, and any changes to a language of course start smaller.

That's often how language changes start.

Plus, it's not about a vote (2% this, 35% that, etc), it's more about a principle, I guess. (non-racism, non-sexism, etc. But traditionalist right winger propagandists want to frame modern principles as "elitist", as I guess they think that sells.)

Anyway. Whether its Latinx, Latin@, or Latine, or whatever. This seems like it is picking up more steam to degender the language. (I remember 10 years ago when there were many choices competing)

It is just LatinX just seems to be the choice that's winning the race, and people are noticing.

No need to lie about "Its da white people invadin!" (in case people forgot. Spanish came from SPAIN. There were other languages there before)

joe40001 posted...

Any "the world conforming to my point of view arguments is not a choice" is super sus.

You have a choice. Its just not equally good to all other choices. That's how society works.

People can keep trying to force an unpopular thing, but don't be shocked when it alienates some people who don't like it,

But lots of similar movements in the past had push back. You're not saying anything new.

particularly when your message to such people is that they are out of touch or bad for feeling that way.

Again, nothing new said. New good ideas can push out old bad ones. Marketplace of ideas, correct? Thats why people refer to the current year, Its an assumption of generalized progress. Language evolves.

For instance, in the link I posted above

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/261-politics/79603497?jumpto=306#306

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_grammatical_gender&oldid=103255150

"This stance is often inspired by feminist ideas about gender equality.[citation needed] Gender neutrality is also used colloquially when one wishes to be inclusive of people who identify as non-binary genders or as genderless."

These changes can become a permanent part of the language. And all change has resistance of some form.

And sometimes it wins out. Such as in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language#Gender_indication

"For example, the words policeman[3][4] and stewardess[5][6] are gender-specific job titles; the corresponding gender-neutral terms are police officer[7][8] and flight attendant. The notion that parts of the English language were sexist was brought to mainstream attention in Western English cultures by feminists in the 1970s.[19] Simultaneously, the link between language and ideologies (including traditional gender ideologies) was becoming apparent in the academic field of linguistics"

Sometimes it loses. Other times things move forward step by step.

Tradition is an awful reason.

Notti posted...

You have a choice. Its just not equally good to all other choices. That's how society works.

I was referring to the lady who said "intersectionality is not a choice"

But lots of similar movements in the past had push back. You're not saying anything new.

I'm acknowledging the push-back, which is part of the whole process. You later talk about the marketplace of ideas, well I'm pointing out how this isn't selling. You can't have a marketplace of ideas if you give people a hard time when you talk about something's flaws.

Tradition is an awful reason.

Tradition alone is a better reason than anti-tradition alone. If you are truly pro-marketplace of ideas, then we are on the same page, save for the fact that you seem to be less willing to acknowledge the anti-popularity of latinx.

"People get to make up their own minds." I agree, and almost entirely their answer to latinx is "nope".

Nah.

joe40001 posted...

I was referring to the lady who said "intersectionality is not a choice"

K. The point of the article is to show how old Latinx is, and arguments spanish speakers have for it.

I'm acknowledging the push-back, which is part of the whole process.

It's not unique to anything though. It's like acknowledging the air. It's not really much of an argument.

"I don't like thing! Others dont like thing!"

ok.

And many other arguments were faulty. (such as many here believing its origin was NOT among the spanish speaking community)

Non arguments and faulty ones don't work well, and I was just pointing those out.

You later talk about the marketplace of ideas, well I'm pointing out how this isn't selling.

It is selling. Well, it is selling better than it was in 2004. And 2010. And 2015. It's growing. It's not up to me to know exactly why it's growing, but it is.

You can't have a marketplace of ideas if you give people a hard time when you talk about something's flaws.

Giving a hard time... now that could actually be considered "part of the whole process"

Tradition alone is a better reason than anti-tradition alone.

Thank goodness not a single person brought up "anti-tradition" as a reason. Or you might have made a point.

Yes, tradition > anti-tradition.

Too bad the argument being made is Principles > tradition.

(principles such as inclusivity, fairness, etc)

I don't find tradition convincing. Ever. Such is life.

If you are truly pro-marketplace of ideas, then we are on the same page, save for the fact that you seem to be less willing to acknowledge the anti-popularity of latinx.

I acknowledge change is difficult for some, and that more up-to-date principles can offend traditionalists. Oh well.

"People get to make up their own minds." I agree, and almost entirely their answer to latinx is "nope".

Less nope than it was 5 years ago, is one of my main points.

Bring it up with the spanish speaking people who created and argue for the term, to deal with the issue, years and years ago. Everyone else is just acknowledging their work:

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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/261-politics/79603497?jumpto=306#306

https://www.latinorebels.com/2015/12/05/the-case-for-latinx-why-intersectionality-is-not-a-choice/
The Case FOR Latinx: Why Intersectionality Is Not a Choice, Dec 5, 2015
By: Mara R. Scharrn-del Ro and Alan A. Aja
================

Notti posted...

Bring it up with the spanish speaking people who created and argue for the term, to deal with the issue, years and years ago.

Yeah!

And those people supporting Latinx should bring it up with the people who created the terms Latino and Latina!

Slayer_22 posted...

Yeah!

And those people supporting Latinx should bring it up with the people who created the terms Latino and Latina!

They are.

https://www.latinorebels.com/2015/12/05/the-case-for-latinx-why-intersectionality-is-not-a-choice/

Along with older terms: Hispanic and Chicano. (amusingly their website is named Latino. Rebels.)

It seems as a community Latin-American Spanish speakers seem to want to refine their labels often.

I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising in some ways since Spanish is itself the language of conquerers (European Spaniards) among a very mixed population, over a very large region.

I still pronounce it "La tinks".

Dumb word and dumb overdramatic topic

Notti posted...

They are.

https://www.latinorebels.com/2015/12/05/the-case-for-latinx-why-intersectionality-is-not-a-choice/

Along with older terms: Hispanic and Chicano. (amusingly their website is named Latino. Rebels.)

It seems as a community Latin-American Spanish speakers seem to want to refine their labels often.

I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising in some ways since Spanish is itself the language of conquerers (European Spaniards) among a very mixed population, over a very large region.

I was making a joke because no one knows who created the word latinx and it's very likely no one knows who created the Spanish language and the distinction between Latino and Latina.

They just weren't going to win here.

Slayer_22 posted...

no one knows who created the word latinx

Spanish speaking progressives. (non-traditionalists)

Slayer_22 posted...

and it's very likely no one knows who created the Spanish language

It came from Spain, the primary conquerers of South/Central American tribes.

Notti posted...

Spanish speaking progressives. (non-traditionalists)

It came from Spain, the primary conquerers of South/Central American tribes.

You're missing the point dude lol

Slayer_22 posted...

You're missing the point dude lol

I'm staying clear on the points that matter lol.

Notti posted...

I'm staying clear on the points that matter lol.

You are acting like pointing out something being very unpopular is irrelevant to the debate as to if it should be adopted.

It's like if there was an election and 98% of the people voted against something and you responding with "people always push back on things, pointing to that is like pointing out the air."

That's not how anything works. Nobody likes latinx, and that is insanely relevant to the debate of if it should be adopted. Acting otherwise is at best obtuse, if not trolling.

Yeah what part of most of us in the Hispanic community don't want to be called latinx don't they understand?