Current Events > ANTI-VAXX Woman Sobs UNCONTROLLABLY cause the HOSPITAL will let her DIE!!

(+) Yeah! (+)

DarkRoast posted...

It's not a simple yes/no because you're comparing apples and oranges.

Organ transplants necessitate vaccinations in order to increase the likelihood that the organ won't be wasted. Organ transplant recipients take immunosuppressants in order to not reject the organ.

Given how rare, valuable and needed organs are, someone who is unwilling to get vaccinated is not an ideal candidate for an organ.

That's not "being a monster." That's how limited resources work.

If you have one kidney and two people who need it, one of which is going to do all the necessary things to prevent an infection / protect the kindey
during a pandemic, and one who isn't willing to do those things... the decision should be made with this in mind.

He wants it to be so simple so bad


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PaunchyTurtle53 posted...

Or maybe, I'm making a decent point, and you're looking for any reason to not want to hear it.

Because if you disagree with someone just because you oppose them politically, you're part of the problem. Especially if they're making valid points.

Way to go for the slander rather than discrediting my arguments. That'll change my mind, and not cement the idea that you're a bunch of monsters even further.

Or maybe your trolling has gotten a little subtler.

kbelfisBACK posted...

DepreceV2 posted...

He wants it to be so simple so bad

People love to think of the world as dichromatic and simple. But it isn't.

Healthcare, and ESPECIALLY organs, are an extremely limited resource.

For kidneys, there's something like 100 people for every 1 kidney available at any given time. If you're in that group of 100 people waiting and you're unwilling to take anti-rejection meds or get vaccinated, you're not going to get that kidney.


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DarkRoast posted...

It's not a simple yes/no because you're comparing apples and oranges.

Organ transplants necessitate vaccinations in order to increase the likelihood that the organ won't be wasted. Organ transplant recipients take immunosuppressants in order to not reject the organ.

Given how rare, valuable and needed organs are, someone who is unwilling to get vaccinated is not an ideal candidate for an organ.

This point holds no water as she isn't taking the organ away from someone else who's waiting. She would be taking it from her friend who wants to offer it to her. Therefore not taking it from anyone else.

That's not "being a monster." That's how limited resources work.

Wanting someone you disagree with to die is being a monster.

If you have one kidney and two people who need it, one of which is going to do all the necessary things to prevent an infection / protect the kindey
during a pandemic, and one who isn't willing to do those things... the decision should be made with this in mind.

But if you have one person who is only willing to give it to one other person, and not anyone else, than it's a moot point. Again, she's not robbing it from someone else in this scenario.

You still haven't answered the question.

Does someone deserve to die of causes unrelated to Covid because they refused the shot?

All of this jumping through hoops to justify it tells me your answer is yes.


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This point holds no water as she isn't taking the organ away from someone else who's waiting. She would be taking it from her friend who wants to offer it to her. Therefore not taking it from anyone else.

That's not how organ transplants work, at least in the United States.

In order to qualify, even if you have a donor, you have to enter the recipient database.

Allowing her to receive an organ despite not meeting the requirements to enter the database is legally dubious.


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DepreceV2 posted...

He wants it to be so simple so bad

Because it is simple.

SwiggitySwoogit posted...

Or maybe your trolling has gotten a little subtler.

Is it trolling? Or do you just want to call it trolling so it's easier to dismiss? So you don't have to actually think about what I'm saying.

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DarkRoast posted...

This point holds no water as she isn't taking the organ away from someone else who's waiting. She would be taking it from her friend who wants to offer it to her. Therefore not taking it from anyone else.

That's not how organ transplants work, at least in the United States.

In order to qualify, even if you have a donor, you have to enter the recipient database.

Allowing her to receive an organ despite not meeting the requirements to enter the database is legally dubious.

Ah yes, I forgot because the law is an arbiter of morality right? There's never been an unjust law right?

It's immoral to condemn her to death.

(Again, if she actually HAD Covid, then yeah, she would be lying in the bed she made, and it would not be nearly as immoral.)

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Paunchy, I'm a doctor. A hospitalist who deals with this sort of thing daily, no less. You're wrong. And you're certainly not "morally right."

You're like a caveman looking at a smartphone. You see a rectangle and it's flashy, and you think it's magic.

But you have zero understanding of what it all means.

You can't just donate organs the way you think you can - we have these laws for a damn good reason (to prevent black market organ selling and to prevent human trafficking.)

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Paunchy is at best ignorant. Pay him no mind.

Easy, trust god to heal your kidneys like you trust him to protect you from Covid,

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Medical ethics are among the most nuanced and complicated issues of all, which is why it's vitally important that stuff like this not be made political by people who have no idea what they're talking about.


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Its sad how antivaxxer defenders dont know how transplants work and why people get rejected. They should do their own research and understand it before being stupid as fuck.

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DarkRoast posted...

Paunchy, I'm a doctor. A hospitalist who deals with this sort of thing daily, no less. You're wrong. And you're certainly not "morally right."

Hey, that's awesome, you wanna know who else was a doctor?



Since he's a doctor, he can't possibly be immoral right? Must've been a great guy.

You're like a caveman looking at a smartphone. You see a rectangle and it's flashy, and you think it's magic.

Ah yes, more personal slander. Keep it coming. That'll show me.

But you have zero understanding of what it all means.

Yeah. You're right. I've never worked in a hospital. I don't know the specifics of how it all works. That doesn't mean I can't comment when something is completely messed up. Can a white person not comment on racial injustices? Can a man not comment on sexism against women? Can a straight person not stand up for those who aren't? Immoral is immoral.

You can't just donate organs the way you think you can

That's false. I do understand that it's not so simple as A-B. Please don't insult me like that.

- we have these laws for a damn good reason (to prevent black market organ selling and to prevent human trafficking.)

Unrelated to this case.

Edit: Before anyone points it out, no, I'm not comparing Dark to the man in the photo. I was simply using it as a means to discredit his statement that because he is a doctor, he is the morally righteous one by default.

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"we don't want a shot that'll cause bad things later in life" she says, when at this rate there is no later in life for her

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Hmmm if only there was an easy way to remedy this. Something that would involve not putting politics over your own health. Nah seems like they tried everything. Oh well.

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darkroast i just want to say i'm glad you take the opportunity to post informative and thoughtful things even if your prompt is utter shitposting, like with this guy. have a follow.

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gunplagirl posted...

"we don't want a shot that'll cause bad things later in life" she says, when at this rate there is no later in life for her

Wow, gunpla wants someone who disagrees with her to die.

In other news, the sun will rise on the eastern side of American in about 10 hours.

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Edit: Before anyone points it out, no, I'm not comparing Dark to the man in the photo. I was simply using it as a means to discredit his statement that because he is a doctor, he is the morally righteous one by default.

1. Comparing physicians to Nazis and vaccines to "medical experimentation" is one of the oldest and most awful propaganda tactics used by anti-vaxxers.
2. The reason I pointed out that I'm a hospitalist is because THIS IS LITERALLY MY AREA OF EXPERTISE. It's what I do everyday. Having direct, firsthand, professional knowledge of the subject matters.

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A: "Transplant recipients need to be vaccinated and entered into the registry"

B: "Can't they make an exception? Just let them sign waivers"

A: "No. That's ethically dubious and a terrible precedent to set."

B: "You monsters are killing people for having different beliefs!!!!"

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_HayleyWilliams posted...

A: "Transplant recipients need to be vaccinated and entered into the registry"

B: "Can't they make an exception? Just let them sign waivers"

A: "No. That's ethically dubious and a terrible precedent to set."

B: "You monsters are killing people for having different beliefs!!!!"

Cease this logic at once.

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Fluttershy posted...

darkroast i just want to say i'm glad you take the opportunity to post informative and thoughtful things even if your prompt is utter shitposting, like with this guy. have a follow.

Thanks, it means a lot to me. Every day I'm becoming increasingly more and more ashamed that I ever associated with Republicans and the right-wing. This propaganda, ignorance, fear and hate is unacceptable on every level.


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_HayleyWilliams posted...

A: "Transplant recipients need to be vaccinated and entered into the registry"

B: "Can't they make an exception? Just let them sign waivers"

A: "No. That's ethically dubious and a terrible precedent to set."

B: "You monsters are killing people for having different beliefs!!!!"

yeah, it's pathetic the mods are letting this level of trolling go on

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DarkRoast posted...

Edit: Before anyone points it out, no, I'm not comparing Dark to the man in the photo. I was simply using it as a means to discredit his statement that because he is a doctor, he is the morally righteous one by default.

1. Comparing physicians to Nazis and vaccines to "medical experimentation" is one of the oldest and most awful propaganda tactics used by anti-vaxxers.
2. The reason I pointed out that I'm a hospitalist is because THIS IS LITERALLY MY AREA OF EXPERTISE. It's what I do everyday. Having direct, firsthand, professional knowledge of the subject matters.

If antivaxxers actually listened or paid any head to experts in their profession, they wouldn't be antivaxxers. Kind of pointless to respond to them at this point during the pandemic. Anyone actually using logic have gotten the vaccine at this point.

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_HayleyWilliams posted...

A: "Transplant recipients need to be vaccinated and entered into the registry"

B: "Can't they make an exception? Just let them sign waivers"

A: "No. That's ethically dubious and a terrible precedent to set."

B: "You monsters are killing people for having different beliefs!!!!"

Nailed it

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She said "I said i'll sign a medical waiver. I have to sign a waiver anyway for the transplant itself, releasing them from anything that could possibly go wrong. It's surgery, it's invasive, i sign a waiver for my life. I'm not sure why i can't sign a waiver for the covid shot. I want God to decide what he has in store for me"

Lady I think your kidney failing may be a sign God doesnt have much left in store for you.

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Someone had a melty

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DarkRoast posted...

Edit: Before anyone points it out, no, I'm not comparing Dark to the man in the photo. I was simply using it as a means to discredit his statement that because he is a doctor, he is the morally righteous one by default.

1. Comparing physicians to Nazis and vaccines to "medical experimentation" is one of the oldest and most awful propaganda tactics used by anti-vaxxers.
2. The reason I pointed out that I'm a hospitalist is because THIS IS LITERALLY MY AREA OF EXPERTISE. It's what I do everyday. Having direct, firsthand, professional knowledge of the subject matters.

Then you completely missed my point. I wasn't using it as a method to discredit your medical knowledge or expertise. We aren't debating that. You obviously know more about medicine than me.

But you did try to use your position of medical authority to set the bar for what is, and isn't moral. Even if I lack medical knowledge, I can see when something isn't right. The fact that you won't extend the grace to see that maybe what's happening in this case isn't great for anyone involved, and that the hospital IS morally right, says a lot. And frankly, it's upsetting. Because if what you've said is true, than you clearly are intelligent. And it hurts to see if mixed with such unflinching callousness.

I have to go to work as well in the morning. This topic has already kept me up later than I want. I'd like to turn down the hostility and discuss this further tomorrow. May I DM you tomorrow when I'm out of work?

Goodnight.

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The fact that people like Paunchy start by posting pictures of Nazis and talking about how evil and heartless Medicine is, instead of simply asking if there's more to the story than they currently know, is precisely why we can't dig ourselves out of this COVID hole.


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But you did try to use your position of medical authority to set the bar for what is, and isn't moral. Even if I lack medical knowledge, I can see when something isn't right.

No, you can't. Because you lack the requisite knowledge of both the law and also the consequences of treating organ transplants like transactions between private citizens.

We don't allow that sort of thing for very real, important reasons. And it's the exact opposite of "heartlessness."

She does not meet the requisite criteria for kidney transplant. She doesn't get a kidney. That's the law. And that law exists to prevent things far worse than this.

When dealing with subjects like this, never assume you intuitively have enough knowledge to make a definitive statement, especially one as extreme as what you said.

Speaking from ignorance benefits no one and puts targets on people who don't deserve it. Healthcare workers have been literally injured from this kind of misinformation, by people who thought they were doing the right thing.


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_HayleyWilliams posted...

A: "Transplant recipients need to be vaccinated and entered into the registry"

B: "Can't they make an exception? Just let them sign waivers"

A: "No. That's ethically dubious and a terrible precedent to set."

B: "You monsters are killing people for having different beliefs!!!!"

Yep. Also, them presenting it as though it's a believe issue when it's literally a science issue is part of the problem. It's not like we're discussing the nature of justice. It's "do you, a person in a country where vaccines are available for free, want to get something that's going to reduce your chances of dying from a preventable disease?" And there's no good reason to say no except people with medical issues that prevent them from getting vaccinated.

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And now Paunchy is suspended... I always come to these topics late

FLOUR posted...

Also I read that the death rate from covid after a kidney transplant is 20-30%. Sure it's a higher rate, but first she would have to contract covid and still have a 2/3 chance of survival if she did. Not giving her that transplant means she has no chance of survival. Which sounds like the better option?

dialysis

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megamanfreakXD posted...

dialysis

I really hate being a doctor lately

Getting crushed with admits while a horde of morons try to tell us how to do our job

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DarkRoast posted...

I really hate being a doctor lately

Getting crushed with admits while a horde of morons try to tell us how to do our job

Same. Makes me wonder why I even went into this field. People are often too stupid to help themselves.

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megamanfreakXD posted...

Same. Makes me wonder why I even went into this field. People are often too stupid to help themselves.

The weird paradox of how they don't trust you but nevertheless show up at the hospital and demand your care, while simultaneously refusing everything you offer... it's just insane

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DarkRoast posted...

The weird paradox of how they don't trust you but nevertheless show up at the hospital and demand your care, while simultaneously refusing everything you offer... it's just insane

Easy admissions I guess. Just document and bill for RVUs.

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These people "I'm waiting for GOD to give me a sign to get the shot"

*sign* "get vaccinated or no kidney"

These people "except that sign"

I swear the joke about the guy drowning in the ocean waiting for GOD to save him becomes more and more true everyday.

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so celebrating the death of someone is cool?you people are so sad.

CloudThunder posted...

so celebrating the death of someone is cool?you people are so sad.

celebrating the fact that these goofballs cant hurt anyone else with their personal choices

Yes. They did this to themselves and are taking care away from people who actually need it.

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Full Throttle posted...

dying from covid does not bother

If she doesn't care about dying den why she cryin
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yutterh posted...

These people "I'm waiting for GOD to give me a sign to get the shot"

*sign* "get vaccinated or no kidney"

These people "except that sign"

I swear the joke about the guy drowning in the ocean waiting for GOD to save him becomes more and more true everyday.

It's always been true

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Several of my dialysis patients that had gotten a kidney transplant and got COVID died unfortunately. Including a 26 year old. This was all before the shot was available.

No comment but I hate anti-vaxxers with all my heart

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DarkRoast posted...

The weird paradox of how they don't trust you but nevertheless show up at the hospital and demand your care, while simultaneously refusing everything you offer... it's just insane

Dudes think they're at a restaurant or some shit

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PaunchyTurtle53 posted...

The hospital gets paid,

No they won't. The insurance company isn't going to pay for an Organ Transplant for someone who doesn't meet the requirements.

That letter she got was probably a result of prior authorization being revoked. I've had it happen to a few of my clients recently.
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Womp

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