Board 8 > Nintendo officially endorses "Search Action" as a genre name

(+) Yeah! (+)

Portrait of Ruin isn't a "true" Metroidvania yeah. Close enough that I wouldn't try to correct someone about it though.

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Kenri posted...

It totally does refer to the RPG elements though.

Hence the confusion. To me it doesn't at all.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

A lot of Zelda games fit the bill, honestly. OoT included.

Zelda and Metroid have secretly always had the same design. Looks like that's over with BOTW though :/

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SO many games tend to slap RPG elements on nowadays that I really can't consider that to be a defining characteristic of Metroidvanias. This reminds me of the "soulslike" argument around Sekiro where people fight about if it's the same type of game as Dark Souls and Bloodborne if they strip out the RPG elements. The line is super blurry. Also thinking of the new Assassin's Creed games which are considered RPGs because they piled enough elements on top of an open-world action game to get that way. I guess what I'm saying is that as time went on that aspect of Castlevania got way less unique.

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foolm0r0n posted...

I fully understand your argument but it's extremely dumb.

"Exploration" is literally a word in a dictionary that people use all the time for all kinds of things. You can translate it natively to others language. How the hell would "Metroid" be better understood? I honestly don't know how you believe this argument, but it seems genuine.

Beyond that, you are also arguing that adding "vania" makes the term even more well understood. Even though you need to know:
* It refers to Castlevania
* It refers to just SOTN and not any of a dozen other Castlevanias

* It doesn't refer to any of the RPG elements, only the map and abilities

How??

The number of gamers who've heard metroidvania is bigger than the number of gamers who've heard "exploration action." Both terms are equally inaccessible to non-gamers; "what is a metroidvania" requires the same answer as "what is an exploration action game."

"but exploration and action are both real words non-gamers know!"

please ask your non-gaming relatives how they think an "exploration action" game works. they will probably say something like "idk, all video games include exploration and action." see if they come up with anything involving gates and keys. or better yet, don't waste your time because you already know both terms are equally non-descriptive

foolm0r0n posted...

Also "you have to play this specific video game in order to understand the word that describes it"

I knew what a Metroidvania was before I played my first Metroid.

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KCF0107 posted...

In addition to what others have brought up, I think that Journey to the Savage Planet is a great game.

Shoutout to this game. No one ever talks about it and it's a great, uhh, Metroid Prime-like.

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OoT isn't a metroidvania. Plot flags open areas up, not your abilities. Also, it has distinct dungeons.

Maybe an individual dungeon is like a mini-metroidvania, where there's the pre-item phase and the post-item phase. But the game as a whole is a Zelda-like, not a metroidvania

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DeepsPraw posted...

are there any?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/813630/Supraland/

NeatoAnAccount posted...

don't waste your time because you already know both terms are equally non-descriptive

I am clearly not worried about wasting my time here. But I don't know why you think your argument is so bulletproof.

Let's take your experiment and ask 1 million non-gamers what an "exploration action" game might entail. What % would mention exploring a world to find keys to unlock doors? Definitely non-zero right? I would say 10% at least. Now what % would say that about "Metroidvania"? Absolutely zero.

Here's another experiment. Show 10 minutes of gameplay from 100 different games to a non-gamer. Ask them to pick out the exploration action games. How well would they do? Now do the same with "Metroidvania". They'll do better???

I'm serious when I say I understand your argument. I just don't get why you think its so convincing.

NeatoAnAccount posted...

I knew what a Metroidvania was before I played my first Metroid.

How, if you have to experience it first?

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

OoT isn't a metroidvania. Plot flags open areas up, not your abilities. Also, it has distinct dungeons.

So it's Metroid Fusion

Zelda 1 is very much like Metroid 1

MM unlocks areas using abilities much like SM, and even supports some forms of sequence breaking

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

OoT isn't a metroidvania. Plot flags open areas up, not your abilities. Also, it has distinct dungeons.

Maybe an individual dungeon is like a mini-metroidvania, where there's the pre-item phase and the post-item phase. But the game as a whole is a Zelda-like, not a metroidvania

I know it's kind of a separate discussion, but IMO "abilities unlocking new areas" shouldn't be a requirement to be a Metroidvania.

Because like, it doesn't even happen that often, within one of these games. And if you took it out of these games, the games would feel p much the same I think.

In Symphony of the Night, there's the double jump, the mist, the bat...and that's it, right? Other areas get unlocked by keys, switches, or plot.

In Metroid Fusion, areas are almost always unlocked by the plot, or by switches.

Etc...

I really just feel like you need the cool map that fills itself in. That makes it easy to exclude stuff like Castlevania 2

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The new abilities you get are the main thing that make the genre for me. It's part of why I wouldn't classify most 3D open world action adventure games as Metroidvanias. If you just want a cool map that fills itself in, aren't most of the Sony first party open world PS4 games Metroidvanias?
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Mac Arrowny posted...

Akumetro Draculoid

Sign me up.

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And if we're into renaming the genre, I'd run with action-mazes.

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Epyo posted...

In Symphony of the Night, there's the double jump, the mist, the bat...and that's it, right? Other areas get unlocked by keys, switches, or plot.

There are a couple more, though the places they let you explore are optional IIRC. Wolf, super jump, snorkel for water. You also need items/equipment to go certain places, I think, like the spike breaker armor.

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I need to try to play Symphony of the Night again. It took me a few tries to finally break through and beat Super Metroid.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

You're discussing metroidvanias with people who don't know what metroid is? This is like saying we should change the name "wavebounce" in Smash Bros because it's meaningless to people who've never heard of wavedashing and doesn't tell you anything about it.

No, I'm talking about discussing Metroid with someone who doesn't know what Metroid is, which is exactly what this article is doing. Telling them it's a Metroidvania is completely useless

NeatoAnAccount posted...

Also exploration action is a really generic term. Like sure, you can tell won't play like an FPS or JRPG, but "exploration action" sounds like basically any game with real-time combat where you're looking around for stuff. Metroidvanias have a really specific structure that you have to see to understand. You can't communicate the genre to the uninitiated in a snappy little 3-word name, you need a full description.

it's a genre name, it has to be generic at some level otherwise you're just describing a specific game. Action, Fighting, and Strategy could all describe Final Fantasy.

NeatoAnAccount posted...

My contention is that the word metroidvania is known and used by too many people to be forcibly changed from the outside by scolding people who say metroidvania.

unfortunately, that's probably true

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foolm0r0n posted...

I am clearly not worried about wasting my time here. But I don't know why you think your argument is so bulletproof.

Let's take your experiment and ask 1 million non-gamers what an "exploration action" game might entail. What % would mention exploring a world to find keys to unlock doors? Definitely non-zero right? I would say 10% at least. Now what % would say that about "Metroidvania"? Absolutely zero.

Exploring a world to find keys to unlock doors is only metroidvania-y if the keys are abilities and the doors are the roadblocks that require you to have the ability.

Here's another experiment. Show 10 minutes of gameplay from 100 different games to a non-gamer. Ask them to pick out the exploration action games. How well would they do? Now do the same with "Metroidvania". They'll do better???

a) watching 16 hours of video games is extremely onerous compared to defining a word
b) they will pick every game that looks like there is exploration and action, without getting anywhere near the core things that make them explacts, so they will randomly be correct more often because they can rule out more things
c) i regret discussing how comprehensible these words are to non-gamers. this is extremely technical jargon for very online people with a specific interest. these words are not for non-gamers, and they never get used in conversations with non-gamers, so their comprehension of these words is irrelevant. "don't say metroidvania, say explact" is like "don't say pro se, say for yourself."

How [do you know what a metroidvania is without playing Metroid], if you have to experience it first?

i'll put the answer in spoilers but i want you to guess
talking about video games on the internet

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Kenri posted...

There are a couple more, though the places they let you explore are optional IIRC. Wolf, super jump, snorkel for water. You also need items/equipment to go certain places, I think, like the spike breaker armor.

ohhh right, the snorkel's a pretty good example

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<a onclick="return show_quoted_message(8, 79602226, 956906807, 'f813bc50');" href="/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79602226/956906807">MZero posted... </a>

No, I'm talking about discussing Metroid with someone who doesn't know what Metroid is, which is exactly what this article is doing. Telling them it's a Metroidvania is completely useless

This article is using the Japanese translation of metroidvania, which literally means "search action" in English. Also, how many people found that article without knowing that Metroid is? Maybe like 3?

it's a genre name, it has to be generic at some level otherwise you're just describing a specific game. Action, Fighting, and Strategy could all describe Final Fantasy.

I have changed my mind on what the problem with this point is. Actually, it's totally fine for genre names to be incomprehensible to non-gamers. Genre names are not for non-gamers. Non-gamers will never run into the words "platformer" or "metroidvania."

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Underleveled posted...

To be fair, we don't say "Marionics" or "Dragon Fantasies" or anything like that.

It took a while before "first-person shooter" supplanted "Doom clone". Mostly I think it happened when the genre began to outgrow that descriptor.

I think that's why it's taken so long for "Metroidvania" to get replaced. It was only in the last generation or so that we started to get significant numbers of these games that weren't Metroid or Castlevania.

NeatoAnAccount posted...

This article is using the Japanese translation of metroidvania, which literally means "search action" in English. Also, how many people found that article without knowing that Metroid is? Maybe like 3?

I have changed my mind on what the problem with this point is. Actually, it's totally fine for genre names to be incomprehensible to non-gamers. Genre names are not for non-gamers. Non-gamers will never run into the words "platformer" or "metroidvania."

um, the entire point of the original article is explaining what Metroid is. The section translated in the tweet is literally called "What is the Metroid series?"

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

i'll put the answer in spoilers but i want you to guess

What words did you use

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MZero posted...

um, the entire point of the original article is explaining what Metroid is. The section translated in the tweet is literally called "What is the Metroid series?"

Does the target audience for this article actually exist though? Who's digging through the announcements on nintendo.co.jp without a clue of what a metroidvania is?

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Epyo posted...

I know it's kind of a separate discussion, but IMO "abilities unlocking new areas" shouldn't be a requirement to be a Metroidvania.

I feel like thats the defining feature OF the genre

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Epyo posted...

I really just feel like you need the cool map that fills itself in. That makes it easy to exclude stuff like Castlevania 2

thatalso excludes Metroid

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

Does the target audience for this article actually exist though? Who's digging through the announcements on nintendo.co.jp without a clue of what a metroidvania is?

I don't understand why you're fighting this so hard.

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foolm0r0n posted...

What words did you use

I don't think I've ever actually used the word metroidvania before this topic lol

But when people started saying metroidvania i was like "oh i think i know what that means"

I don't remember when I learned how metroid was organized, probably pre-2008 though

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Jakyl25 posted...

thatalso excludes Metroid

tbh Metroid 1 barely counts as a Metroidvania anyway because exploration in that game is painful, not rewarding

to be clear this is a joke but I think I actually kinda believe it too

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Metroidvania is a ruined term anyway since people started to tag every single non-linear 2D platformer as one. Including very basic games like the second and third Shantae games, Megaman ZX and ZXA etc. And the worst offender are the Batman Arkham games which are actually 3D.
The Ori games are not really Metroidvania either, if anything they are...2D plarformer Zelda games
Hollow Knight and Axiom Verge ARE Metroidvania

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

I don't remember when I learned how metroid was organized, probably pre-2008 though

Probably using some common English words like... exploration

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right

there wasn't a unified genre name because there were not yet 1000 games also organized like metroid, so you had to describe it with entire sentences

now you can just say "it's a metroidvania" and the other person will know what you mean. and if they don't know what a metroidvania is, they don't know video games, and therefore you're not going to say "it's a metroidvania" to them.

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while we're on this note, considering a majority of said 1000 games also explicitly use the term metroidvania... yeah it's not like it can just be written off at this point

I agree with everything Neato has said

I'd have to say that when a piece of jargon is this ubiquitous and the meaning is hard to condense into a few words, it makes more sense to explain it to people who don't understand the meaning than to replace it with a more descriptive term.

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All right, my wife is a casual gamer, so I asked her what she thought the term "search action" or "exploration action" would mean, and she thought it would be a game where you don't have to complete levels in a set order. I asked her for examples, and her first thought was RPGs like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. She's never played a Metroid or Castlevania game, so I didn't see the point in asking her about Metroidvania.

So there you go. She also thinks Zelda is an RPG, but that's another debate for another time!

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Jakyl25 posted...

thatalso excludes Metroid

yep I'd exclude Metroid 1 from being a Metroidvania. the lack of map really leads to a very different experience I think (a crappy one)

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If you draw your own map on graph paper does it become a Metroidvania?

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no then it's myst or 7th guest or something like that

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I'm suprised Nintendo hasn't called Zelda its own genre yet, seeing how I haven't seen a single video game try to be like Zelda.

I've seen several games called Zelda-killers, like Sony's Dark Cloud, but that game was just a generic dungeon crawler.

I've seen people called Zelda Action Adventure RPG but something like Ys (which is a proper Action Adventure RPG) is no where near the same type of game as Zelda.

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Lord Ephraim posted...

I'm suprised Nintendo hasn't called Zelda its own genre yet, seeing how I haven't seen a single video game try to be like Zelda.

I recommend playing Okami.

Also some people quite like Death's Door, if it's a 2D Zelda-like you want. Hyper Light Drifter as well.
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"Metroidvania" is like "Kafkaesque" for video games, you really only need a passing familiarity with the reference to understand the term
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Lord Ephraim posted...

I'm suprised Nintendo hasn't called Zelda its own genre yet, seeing how I haven't seen a single video game try to be like Zelda.

Anodyne 1 and 2
Beyond Oasis
3D Dot Game Heroes
Ittle Dew
Hack N Slash
Crusader of Centy
Minit (with a major gimmick on top)
Golden Axe Warrior

and those are just ones that closely mimic 2D Zelda, throw in 3D and there's more

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deaths door was awesome

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Seginustemple posted...

Kafkaesque

What is this?

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Seginustemple posted...

"Metroidvania" is like "Kafkaesque" for video games, you really only need a passing familiarity with the reference to understand the term

This just makes me think even less of Metroidvania as a term since I have no idea what Kafkaesque is so it's not helping the case

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Kafkaesque is something that's similar to Kafka, of course


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StealThisSheen posted...

This just makes me think even less of Metroidvania as a term since I have no idea what Kafkaesque is so it's not helping the case

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Kafka was a novelist in the search action genre
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