Current Events > I don't get it, how is Venezuela a poor country?

(+) Yeah! (+)

They have oil do they not?

I would expect them to be developed similarly to Saudi Arabia

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Corruption

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U.S. Corruption and Geopolitical Warfare

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white man bad

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It's crap oil that's hard to refine. Ever since fracking the U.S. has become more oil independent and there's more supply.

Countries became less reliant on their oil and liberal policies came together to create a massive shitstorm
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Venezuela was fine before heavy sanctions

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This is exactly what the US is becoming right now. The people at the top are avariciously, opulently wealthy and the people at the bottom at eating trash from garbage cans.

S O C l A L l S M
/s

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They bet everything on oil, but then people stopped buying from them.
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A combination of that oil being relatively difficult to process, mismanagement by a corrupt government and US sanctions

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blablablax17 posted...

They bet everything on oil, but then people stopped buying from them.

Basically this.

They were running along nicely as a socialists society, but only has one export, oil.

Once the supply out weighed the demand, and no one was buying from them anymore, they pretty much went bakrupt.


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The US blocked their economy.
That and Hugo Chavez destroyed their economy by giving handouts to the poor class and overinflated the Bolivar.
Now Venezuela is a mess of a country and Southamerica is suffering the consequences by having them illegally migrate and commit crimes all around.

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• Corrupt government
• Socialism
• Political turmoil
• Put all their eggs in the oil basket; oil prices tanked
• Sanctions

etc.

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Socialism

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How would being anarcho capitalist change the value of Venezuelan exports?

Venezuela nationalized their oil industry in the seventies, which started a multi-decade decline in said industries while the government became increasingly reliant on it for profits.

Then in 2003 Chavez fired a huge number of oil employees so he could put in party loyalists who had no idea what they were doing.

Then in 2007 Venezuela tried forcing oil companies to pay significantly more than had previously been agreed upon, and when those companies refused Venezuela seized their assets.

Then the oil market collapsed in 2014 and their government had put way too much investment into it.

Then the state started seizing private assets from other companies, like factories, which started a long chain of international companies abandoning the country.

Then in 2015 sanctions were put on their government for corruption.

By 2016 dozens of major companies had fled the country citing a variety of issues.

In 2017 GM had to leave because the state seized their plant and stole their assets.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/01/29/charting-the-decline-of-venezuelas-oil-industry/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/general-motors-says-venezuelan-officials-illegally-seize-plant-n748741

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36294939

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Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...

Venezuela was fine before heavy sanctions

Yeah I was about to say, they fucked themselves with oil reliance and liberal policies long before sanctions ever came. Those policies created the fucking sanctions.
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ButteryMales posted...

How would being anarcho capitalist change the value of Venezuelan exports?

the US probably wouldn't have placed sanctions on them

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in what fucking world is the PSUV liberal

s0nicfan posted...

Then in 2003 Chavez fired a huge number of oil employees so he could put in party loyalists who had no idea what they were doing.

This is always the harbinger of doom.

What happened in 2015? Every line had a curve except Saudi Arabia.

ButteryMales posted...

What happened in 2015? Every line had a curve except Saudi Arabia.

There was a huge drop in the price of oil in mid-2014.

Hasn't impacted other oil exporting nations as badly because they didn't have a corrupt clown in office who spent a decade implementing terrible economic policies like Chavez did.

Someone capable of making a topic surely could just as easily ask google the same question.

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Sanctions have been being imposed since the mid 2000s

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Maybe Venezuela (and Cuba) should build factories to make cheap superfluous consumer goods. Then, suddenly, 'Murrica! won't care that they're run by tyrannical communist regimes.

Corruption

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Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...

Sanctions have been being imposed since the mid 2000s

The first sanctions were in 2017 and those were on individuals in the government, not trade.

Anything else you'd like to be corrected on?

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The first sanctions were in 2017 and those were on individuals in the government, not trade.

Anything else you'd like to be corrected on?

damn, Obama was still giving out Sanctions in 2017?

thats crazy.

for real though its hilarious someone could be wrong and so arrogant at the same time. No wonder no one takes you serious.

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Zeeak4444 posted...

for real though its hilarious someone could be wrong and so arrogant at the same time.

Indeed. Please learn the difference between economic sanctions and sections on individuals.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Indeed. Please learn the difference between economic sanctions and sections on individuals.

first sanctions were in 2017...

Please learn how to properly communicate with others before throwing hissy fits.

like, neither one of those are true, the 2015 sanctions were on seven officials, so 2017 wasnt the first time as you said.

god its amazing you came here to double down on that.

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

The first sanctions were in 2017 and those were on individuals in the government, not trade.

Anything else you'd like to be corrected on?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Venezuelan_crisis

According to wiki they've been getting Sanctioned since at least 2008

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Socialism! And you can bet your ass if Bernie Sanders or AOC ever become president the US will become Venezuela 2.0.

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some combination of oil prices crashing and mismanagement of the economy

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Zeeak4444 posted...

for real though its hilarious someone could be wrong and so arrogant at the same time.

I just skim past his posts at this point lol

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SomeLikeItHoth posted...

Socialism! And you can bet your ass if Bernie Sanders or AOC ever become president the US will become Venezuela 2.0.

I am ok with Bernie. if i was murikan.

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s0nicfan posted...

Venezuela nationalized their oil industry in the seventies, which started a multi-decade decline in said industries while the government became increasingly reliant on it for profits.

Then in 2003 Chavez fired a huge number of oil employees so he could put in party loyalists who had no idea what they were doing.

Then in 2007 Venezuela tried forcing oil companies to pay significantly more than had previously been agreed upon, and when those companies refused Venezuela seized their assets.

Then the oil market collapsed in 2014 and their government had put way too much investment into it.

Then the state started seizing private assets from other companies, like factories, which started a long chain of international companies abandoning the country.

Then in 2015 sanctions were put on their government for corruption.

By 2016 dozens of major companies had fled the country citing a variety of issues.

In 2017 GM had to leave because the state seized their plant and stole their assets.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/01/29/charting-the-decline-of-venezuelas-oil-industry/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/general-motors-says-venezuelan-officials-illegally-seize-plant-n748741

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36294939

best post and tagged.

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... wait until you hear about oil-rich Nigeria.

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SomeLikeItHoth posted...

Socialism!

ButteryMales posted...

How would being anarcho capitalist instead change the value of Venezuelan exports?

Not enough socialism.

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IShall_Run_Amok posted...

socialism

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It has nothing to do with Socialism. If they were anarcho-capitalist an oil company would enslave the population like Nestle or Debeers.

Corruption, greed, cronyism, and outright baffling economic decisions.

SomeLikeItHoth posted...

Socialism! And you can bet your ass if Bernie Sanders or AOC ever become president the US will become Venezuela 2.0.

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ButteryMales posted...

It has nothing to do with Socialism. If they were anarcho-capitalist an oil company would enslave the population like Nestle or Debeers.

It has somewhat to do with socialism, both the real definition and the one that people tend to use when they talk about it. The former because the state was literally seizing the means of production through taking over factories and refineries. The latter because of their social safety nets.

The former created problems because it caused most international corporations to flee the country, gutting their industries. It was then made worse when cronies were installed in leadership positions for said state-run assets which then failed to perform because people didn't know what they were doing. When the state runs industry, there's little reason for industry to participate in that state.

As to the latter, one of the reasons why Chavez was so popular in his country is because he took the massive profits from the oil industry and ran a number of social safety net programs for the poor with them. The problem was that he wasn't reinvesting any of those profits into growth, so when the one industry that they depended on collapsed they no longer had any money to give to the poor, nor did they have any money to create new industries. He basically just used the economy to bolster his popularity among the people in order to retain power, which in the short term seems incredibly generous but in the long term contributed significantly to the collapse of the country.

Now, if you want to make the case that he didn't do socialism right or that the country is some weird combination of socialism and pseudo dictatorship, sure. You can make that argument. But socialism 100% played a factor into why the situation was as bad as it was.

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CHM_Punk posted...

It is a fascinating observation that those with a favorable view of REAL Socialism that happen to bad mouth Free Trade at every turn, immediately cry about other countries placing sanctions on nations that adhere to Socialism.

So are you anti-sanction and pro-free trade?

s0nicfan posted...

It has somewhat to do with socialism, both the real definition and the one that people tend to use when they talk about it. The former because the state was literally seizing the means of production through taking over factories and refineries. The latter because of their social safety nets.

The former created problems because it caused most international corporations to flee the country, gutting their industries. It was then made worse when cronies were installed in leadership positions for said state-run assets which then failed to perform because people didn't know what they were doing. When the state runs industry, there's little reason for industry to participate in that state.

As to the latter, one of the reasons why Chavez was so popular in his country is because he took the massive profits from the oil industry and ran a number of social safety net programs for the poor with them. The problem was that he wasn't reinvesting any of those profits into growth, so when the one industry that they depended on collapsed they no longer had any money to give to the poor, nor did they have any money to create new industries. He basically just used the economy to bolster his popularity among the people in order to retain power, which in the short term seems incredibly generous but in the long term contributed significantly to the collapse of the country.

Now, if you want to make the case that he didn't do socialism right or that the country is some weird combination of socialism and pseudo dictatorship, sure. You can make that argument. But socialism 100% played a factor into why the situation was as bad as it was.

If the oil infrastructure was still in private hands the oil would still be crap. At best local oil laborers would have a job.

ButteryMales posted...

If the oil infrastructure was still in private hands the oil would still be crap. At best local oil laborers would have a job.

But you wouldn't have lost all those other industries because of socialist policies which would have protected the economy more against one single industry dragging everything down. This isn't just about their oil industry. It's about everything else that led them to being completely dependent on their oil industry.

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Seems like a classic tale of incompetence and greed blurring your long term judgement. Oil was too lucrative to pass up, and they put all their eggs in one basket. A very volatile one.

ButteryMales posted...

How would being anarcho capitalist change the value of Venezuelan exports?

It wouldn't have. Capitalists aren't infallible, and likely would have made the same dumb single minded investment in oil

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