Current Events > BBC allegedly adds grey filter to picture of China

(+) Yeah! (+)

teep_ posted...

I consider myself left wing. Socially, I'm very much what some people would perjoratively refer to as 'sjw'. Economically, I believe we should have capitalism but that it should be highly regulated by government. As well as the welfare state, protections, etc

Sounds like you are a Democrat (TM).

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teep_ posted...

I consider myself left wing. Socially, I'm very much what some people would perjoratively refer to as 'sjw'. Economically, I believe we should have capitalism but that it should be highly regulated by government. As well as the welfare state, protections, etc

I pretty much agree with that, insofar as that it is far better than what we have here currently (in America). But I also get the socialist argument that everyone should have a say in the matter of the distribution of the communitys resources.

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COVxy posted...

teep_ posted...

I consider myself left wing. Socially, I'm very much what some people would perjoratively refer to as 'sjw'. Economically, I believe we should have capitalism but that it should be highly regulated by government. As well as the welfare state, protections, etc

Sounds like you are a Democrat (TM).

I didn't realise Biden was for free college
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teep_ posted...

I didn't realise Biden was for free college

For public universities and colleges, with minor stipulation, yes he is.

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Nothing about China is leftist. And I speak Mandarin and have been there many times. Tankies are such a joke. I guarantee they haven't been to China of speak Mandarin because the minute they got off the plane they would realize what a bunch of bullshit half the stuff they say is. Chinese government says it has state capitalism and socialism will start in 2070 (changed from 2050 last year). Like how delusional do you have to be to think the Chinese government you worship is lying about being capitalist?

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teep_ posted...

I still dislike the point you and scar made in that one topic that you have to be at least socialist to count as a leftist

That's not really a fair representation of what I said. I think that "left-wing" is not a very useful term if it describes people who don't oppose capitalism in some way. My argument was that otherwise there's a big fuzzy gray area in the middle that allows right-wingers to camouflage themselves as left, just because they support x social program. I recognize that the concepts of right and left vary between countries and that you'd probably be left-wing in relation to your country's parlament. I just see opposition to capitalism as the core issue that divides the "left" from the "right". And as such I'd classify you as some sort of progressive centrist.

Of course, this introduces a bit of a pickle when trying to classify alleged leftists who simultaneously support imperialist, state capitalist regimes. In the end I think it's not so interesting to talk about where a person falls on the left-right scale, but rather where ideas fall. It's easy to conclude that capitalism (even heavily regulated) is a "right-wing" idea, you shouldn't feel the need to defend your leftist identity just because of that.

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The picture on the left is the BBC one. :l People sure aren't perceptive.

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gunplagirl posted...

The picture on the left is the BBC one. :l People sure aren't perceptive.

Interesting that that's your takeaway from this topic

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RebelElite791 posted...

Interesting that that's your takeaway from this topic

I'm not reading 150+ posts when 20 in there's people calling TC a China bot

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gunplagirl posted...

I'm not reading 150+ posts when 20 in there's people calling TC a China bot

When youre a genocide denier, its kinda justified

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gunplagirl posted...

The picture on the left is the BBC one. :l People sure aren't perceptive.

They're literally both the BBC. The Chinese broadcast required post-processing and was aired later. Almost all foreign broadcasts in China are delayed and you can only see the BBC at hotels if you possess a foreign passport. It isn't available to normal Chinese. However it is still censored, it just blacks out and shows nothing during censored segments.

What's hilarious is that not only is GameFAQs not banned in China, but neither is NPR. I regularly read NPR in China though I haven't been back since February of last year, so it could be banned now. Some Japanese media is also unbanned so that's another way to get information there.

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China's bit- I mean our TC is finally in Purgatory, again. That sure was fast. Usually a Suspension lasts a day, at least. Mine once lasted for a whole week before it was eventually Banned.
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gunplagirl posted...

I'm not reading 150+ posts when 20 in there's people calling TC a China bot

I have to wonder if you're purposely deflecting from the reason there are 150 posts ITT

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Shablagoo posted...

true dat playa im in heaven on da mental level

Are you a Vegy alt?

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indica posted...

Are you a Vegy alt?

I've thought this for the longest time but I get less and less sure

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The_Creep_2020 posted...

When youre a genocide denier, its kinda justified

Wait that's what TC did? Yikes.

RebelElite791 posted...

I have to wonder if you're purposely deflecting from the reason there are 150 posts ITT

I'd have to have read the topic to know why, so it's hardly deflecting. In fact, there's really no way I could have deflected with what little I've said in the topic. Either elucidate me or shut the fuck up.

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All news is propaganda.

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gunplagirl posted...

I'd have to have read the topic to know why, so it's hardly deflecting. In fact, there's really no way I could have deflected with what little I've said in the topic. Either elucidate me or shut the fuck up.

It's enough to read post 99. It's deleted but Funkydog quoted it in post 100. Knock yourself out.

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My god, we gotta cancel BBC. Please, do it for West Taiwan!

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scar the 1 posted...

I just see opposition to capitalism as the core issue that divides the "left" from the "right".

Why this, as opposed to e.g. social programs?

Also, the way I'm dividing the scale is left -> centre-left -> centre-right -> right. I'm happy to call myself centre-left, but calling myself a centrist carries connotations that imo, don't work with my values, even when I attach the qualifier "progressive"

With my scale: I'd say "left of capitalism" would be left, people like me would be center-left and people who aren't socially progressive would be centre-right. I haven't quite worked out what the division between centre right and right is, but I'm not as familiar with right-wing thought/policy
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ill pull out the worlds smallest violin for our buddy ol pal China

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So will TC actually get banned this time? Or are we all going to have to beg Allen like we did with Admiral?

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spikethedevil posted...

So will TC actually get banned this time? Or are we all going to have to beg Allen like we did with Admiral?

Hes already in purgatory

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FlameTurtle posted...

Hes already in purgatory

Doesnt mean he will get banned.

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I know TC isn't here to defend himself, but I want to raise a point against his deflection schtick.

Yes, the US has detainment facilities in which immigrants are treated inhumanely. Approximately 500 children are lost in the system because they were separated from their parents who were then deported. ICE distributes misleading literature in Spanish to try and ensnare immigrants whose stronger language is Spanish. There are reports of forced hysterectomies, and of ICE retaliating against prisoners who spoke up about squalid conditions in these facilities by making them wipe down surfaces with caustic chemicals without appropriate PPE or ventilation. Let's not get it twisted - America has some fucked up detainment facilities. And that's only talking about immigration - the practice of prison labor is fucked up too.

So we're on the same page. America has inhumane detainment facilities, and that's worth addressing.

How the fuck does that invalidate claims of China's re-education camps? Facilities where Uighur Chinese people are broken down over the course of months, where deviation from the "lesson" - whether it be sitting in silence or repeating propaganda for hours at a time - involves being taken away and never seen again? Where "deviation" is collapsing from exhaustion or coughing because you're sick? What about being interrogated for hours at a time, made to praise the CCP and to confess to false crimes after years of detainment and brainwashing?

What about those facilities who reach out to Uighurs abroad, asking them to return to China alone to settle debts, before throwing them in jail for years on trumped up charges?

Those facilities exist. The CCP has a long history of detaining political prisoners for years on end without a trial, reaching them in other countries claiming they have outstanding business so they have an excuse to entrap them. And they have a history of interrogations that go for days on end, as well as torture. Academics, pro-democracy protestors - thrown in jail for YEARS and subjected to these inhumane practices.

And for over a decade, the CCP has been throwing a religious minority into these camps to be subjected to all of this - as well as forced sterilization, forced labor and forced organ transplants.

America has inhumane detainment facilities. So does China. You can criticize both - both can exist at the same time. And yeah, it's dumb as fuck when your redneck dipshits call it "unamerican" to criticize human rights violations being perpetuated by the United States - just like it's fucking moronic to shout "sinophobia" about China's detainment facilities, and their decades of human rights violations.

It's not one or the other, TC. Both exist. Both are bad. Both can be criticized in the same breath, and they can be focused on individually for the things they individually do terribly. That doesn't make us hypocrites, and it doesn't wash the blood off of Xi Jinping's hands. Fuck him, fuck the CCP and fuck anyone who denies the existence of those camps. The people of China, majority and minority populations alike, deserve better than the scum that heads their government.

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MrMallard posted...

I know TC isn't here to defend himself, but I want to raise a point against his deflection schtick.

Yes, the US has detainment facilities in which immigrants are treated inhumanely. Approximately 500 children are lost in the system because they were separated from their parents who were then deported. ICE distributes misleading literature in Spanish to try and ensnare immigrants whose stronger language is Spanish. There are reports of forced hysterectomies, and of ICE retaliating against prisoners who spoke up about squalid conditions in these facilities by making them wipe down surfaces with caustic chemicals without appropriate PPE or ventilation. Let's not get it twisted - America has some fucked up detainment facilities. And that's only talking about immigration - the practice of prison labor is fucked up too.

So we're on the same page. America has inhumane detainment facilities, and that's worth addressing.

How the fuck does that invalidate claims of China's re-education camps? Facilities where Uighur Chinese people are broken down over the course of months, where deviation from the "lesson" - whether it be sitting in silence or repeating propaganda for hours at a time - involves being taken away and never seen again? Where "deviation" is collapsing from exhaustion or coughing because you're sick? What about being interrogated for hours at a time, made to praise the CCP and to confess to false crimes after years of detainment and brainwashing?

What about those facilities who reach out to Uighurs abroad, asking them to return to China alone to settle debts, before throwing them in jail for years on trumped up charges?

Those facilities exist. The CCP has a long history of detaining political prisoners for years on end without a trial, reaching them in other countries claiming they have outstanding business so they have an excuse to entrap them. And they have a history of interrogations that go for days on end, as well as torture. Academics, pro-democracy protestors - thrown in jail for YEARS and subjected to these inhumane practices.

And for over a decade, the CCP has been throwing a religious minority into these camps to be subjected to all of this - as well as forced sterilization, forced labor and forced organ transplants.

America has inhumane detainment facilities. So does China. You can criticize both - both can exist at the same time. And yeah, it's dumb as fuck when your redneck dipshits call it "unamerican" to criticize human rights violations being perpetuated by the United States - just like it's fucking moronic to shout "sinophobia" about China's detainment facilities, and their decades of human rights violations.

It's not one or the other, TC. Both exist. Both are bad. Both can be criticized in the same breath, and they can be focused on individually for the things they individually do terribly. That doesn't make us hypocrites, and it doesn't wash the blood off of Xi Jinping's hands. Fuck him, fuck the CCP and fuck anyone who denies the existence of those camps. The people of China, majority and minority populations alike, deserve better than the scum that heads their government.

Very well said. This needs to be an auto-reply every time this comes up.

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MrMallard posted...

The people of China, majority and minority populations alike, deserve better than the scum that heads their government.

Also just to preempt what some people are going to say. "The majority support the government." Okay based on what? Opinion polls in a country where all communications are monitored and criticism of the government is censored and can even land you in jail? I know many Chinese who do not support the government's actions on many policies but there is no way to know how many or have any kind of debate because they cannot vote, only party approved news and information is allowed, and you cannot voice criticism. The people who try to claim Chinese are a hive mind who blindly support the government are just as bad as the people who hate Chinese people for being a different ethnicity.

Remember when the Soviet Union broke up not a single one of the former Soviet countries that had elections elected the communists back into power. None of them. So don't assume China is some exception and everyone actually loves the current system.

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ssjevot posted...

Also just to preempt what some people are going to say. "The majority support the government." Okay based on what? Opinion polls in a country where all communications are monitored and criticism of the government is censored and can even land you in jail? I know many Chinese who do not support the government's actions on many policies but there is no way to know how many or have any kind of debate because they cannot vote, only party approved news and information is allowed, and you cannot voice criticism. The people who try to claim Chinese are a hive mind who blindly support the government are just as bad as the people who hate Chinese people for being a different ethnicity.

Remember when the Soviet Union broke up not a single one of the former Soviet countries that had elections elected the communists back into power. None of them. So don't assume China is some exception and everyone actually loves the current system.

I would just like to add that both China and the USSR were never truly communists nations; they were totalitarian regimes with social hierarchies using communist ideology to manipulate the masses. Current China is so far from communism that they have the strongest capitalist market in the world (under a one party system).

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indica posted...

I would just like to add that both China and the USSR were never truly communists nations; they were totalitarian regimes with social hierarchies using communist ideology to manipulate the masses. Current China is so far from communism that they have the strongest capitalist market in the world (under a one party system).

Yeah as I often say tankies are just authoritarians that had leftist jargon to sieze power. China doesn't even claim to practice socialism, it explicitly says it is state capitalist.

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teep_ posted...

Why this, as opposed to e.g. social programs?

Also, the way I'm dividing the scale is left -> centre-left -> centre-right -> right. I'm happy to call myself centre-left, but calling myself a centrist carries connotations that imo, don't work with my values, even when I attach the qualifier "progressive"

With my scale: I'd say "left of capitalism" would be left, people like me would be center-left and people who aren't socially progressive would be centre-right. I haven't quite worked out what the division between centre right and right is, but I'm not as familiar with right-wing thought/policy

Because I don't really see social programs as something that's exclusively leftist. Sure, one might say that more than one dimension is needed to accurately model political ideology, but as long as we're talking just left-right: there are leanings among conservatives for social programs as well. IIRC you can look at something called like, paternal conservatism or something like that. Point being that social programs aren't exclusive to left-wing thought. A clearer division between right and left is "who should hold the power", and in capitalism, no matter how regulated it is, capital holds the power.
Again, my point here is utility. I think that the distinction between left and right is useful when there's a distinct line. No one is going to agree how many social programs constitute a left-wing, as opposed to center, politics, and no one will agree which programs are the important or the most left-wing. What can be clearly agreed upon is that one end of the spectrum is when workers own the means of production, and the other end is when they get exploited.

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Welfare state capitalism shouldn't be considered leftism, because it's explicitly operating under a capitalist economic structure. If we consider social democracy the left end of capitalism that's fine, but it's not socialist nor does it have elements of socialism. Socialism does not require a welfare state and under the most pure form would have neither a state nor welfare.

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ssjevot posted...

Also just to preempt what some people are going to say. "The majority support the government." Okay based on what? Opinion polls in a country where all communications are monitored and criticism of the government is censored and can even land you in jail? I know many Chinese who do not support the government's actions on many policies but there is no way to know how many or have any kind of debate because they cannot vote, only party approved news and information is allowed, and you cannot voice criticism. The people who try to claim Chinese are a hive mind who blindly support the government are just as bad as the people who hate Chinese people for being a different ethnicity.

Remember when the Soviet Union broke up not a single one of the former Soviet countries that had elections elected the communists back into power. None of them. So don't assume China is some exception and everyone actually loves the current system.

It's also hard to blame the Chinese citizens if they truly do support the government. They've lived their whole life under an education system that is highly influenced by the CCP. They could be the nicest people in the world, but they'll still believe what we view as wrong as the right thing to do with a lifetime of convincing.

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The truth about China is that it's most likely a legitimately blossoming country that is learning, the way America is. Both countries have challenges to overcome. But we need to work together and join forces with the goal of providing a great life for all people, with freedom of information and freedom to explore any ideas in honest conversation with one another.

Propaganda flows from and against all countries. So let's just love people and work together.

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Sure there are multiple form of morality and all, but I think in general, the world is heavily leaning towards senseless mass killings and slavery, though I suppose not entirely indentured servitude disguised as jobs. The US did indeed go through the same growing pains and the same level of crime, so there is a possibility China does become a whole new entity down the line, but right now that government is problematic, and most countries not indebted to them are feeling it.

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legendarylemur posted...

Sure there are multiple form of morality and all, but I think in general, the world is heavily leaning towards senseless mass killings and slavery, though I suppose not entirely indentured servitude disguised as jobs. The US did indeed go through the same growing pains and the same level of crime, so there is a possibility China does become a whole new entity down the line, but right now that government is problematic, and most countries not indebted to them are feeling it.

This is true but there is literally nothing that we can do right now except be smarter with our purchases. Any serious action to try to force them into the future the way we did Nazi Germany, would likely destroy this planet forever. I'm all for strategic pressure, conversations with their leadership, finding ways to tell them we should respect all humans, but I feel like some people are clamoring for war with China which would be a mistake for the species.

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Oh crap, I made a mistake, I meant to say most of the world is leaning towards opposing senseless mass killings etc

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pure_temper posted...

The truth about China is that it's most likely a legitimately blossoming country that is learning, the way America is. Both countries have challenges to overcome. But we need to work together and join forces with the goal of providing a great life for all people, with freedom of information and freedom to explore any ideas in honest conversation with one another.

Propaganda flows from and against all countries. So let's just love people and work together.

Good post. I like the optimism and I hope for the same.

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There's a new agenda or some sort of propaganda to China right now, even though they're our ally and biggest trade partner. It's mainly started by Republicans (oh no icky brown people from far away!)

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