Poll of the Day > Did you know Trans men can experience phantom pain in their penis?

(+) Yeah! (+)

tinyurl.com/525lhrms

I heard about this at a medial conference in Philly. A doctor in Chicago (Shecter) did a similar study with brain scans, and found similar results. The citation provided is from a University in California.

Basically, despite being assigned female at birth, areas of the brain light up during a brain scan that show the brain is wired to expect the body to have a penis, and as a result can feel sensation similar to those who have experienced the loss of a limb.

I'm currently searching for the citation for the following part, but Shecter also mentioned similar scans being conducted on trans women, and found that the subjects brains would not light up at all, and the brain would not recognize this organ as their own. Kind of like when you where prosthetics.

Just thought this was interesting. In my own personal experience, I do get a different feeling when I have looked at that part of my body when compared to something like my toe or hand.

It's hardly a surprise as the penis was there to begin with assuming they had it removed of course. Are you thinking of going down this road?

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thats not what a trans man is winter but i think you probably know that

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bruh, this ain't about people born with penises, except the 3rd paragraph.

Brb gonna have nightmares about phantom penises

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IronBornCorps posted...

bruh, this ain't about people born with penises, except the 3rd paragraph.

Whoops. Brain fart on my part! Does this happen to your bf?

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Yes he has, it's usually a precursor to foreplay. It's not super often, but he says it's like a ghost boner.

Another guy I know (I actually went to the conference with him and 2 other guys), told me he experienced it as well. Once he had the surgery, he said it stopped and he just feels his dick now.

Thats pretty interesting. I really think that trans people happen because sometimes a male/female brain develops but something goes wrong and the wrong gender body develops alongside it


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Mead posted...

Thats pretty interesting. I really think that trans people happen because sometimes a male/female brain develops but something goes wrong and the wrong gender body develops alongside it

People can also experience pain from things that aren't their body, how the human brain handles these sorts of things is really interesting.

I never really considered trans women to have the same thing, but, it makes sense.

shadowsword87 posted...

People can also experience pain from things that aren't their body

how do you mean?

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Kanatteru posted...

thats not what a trans man is winter but i think you probably know that

To be fair, the term "trans man" could conceivably mean "born a man, but then became trans" without being inconsistent with regular English. That it means the opposite of that is relatively arbitrary and therefore easy to get confused by for those that aren't regularly exposed to the concepts and language. Heck, I do know better, but I still interpreted this topic the wrong way around on the first pass (presumably because talking about phantom pain made me immediately think of amputations and subconsciously assume that was the issue at hand).

That's not to say that there aren't people that deliberately misinterpret it for trolling purposes, but I'm generally pretty sympathetic to people being confused by the terminology.

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Mead posted...

how do you mean?

I can't find the exact experiment name, but, you hide someones hand and put a prosthetic in place (it doesn't need to be super convincing, just a box). Then you run a feather along the real hand, and the prosthetic hand so the brain links up the two. Then, very quickly, slam a hammer down on the prosthetic hand. The person feels the pain, jerks their hand back, and their hand is fine.
But, they still felt the pain.

adjl posted...

To be fair, the term "trans man" could conceivably mean "born a man, but then became trans" without being inconsistent with regular English. That it means the opposite of that is relatively arbitrary and therefore easy to get confused by for those that aren't regularly exposed to the concepts and language. Heck, I do know better, but I still interpreted this topic the wrong way around on the first pass (presumably because talking about phantom pain made me immediately think of amputations and subconsciously assume that was the issue at hand).

That's not to say that there aren't people that deliberately misinterpret it for trolling purposes, but I'm generally pretty sympathetic to people being confused by the terminology.

Also, I know that the terms FtM and MtF aren't super great because it calls to the fact of who they were, rather than who they are. But fuck me it's a lot easier to follow.

ugh, I swear the terminology is not hard.

Trans is an adjective. The other corresponding adjective would be cis (your gender matches what you were assigned at birth)

male and female (among others I'm not getting into) are used to describe gender identity.

So a trans man for instance, is someone who's gender does not match that they were assigned at birth, and has a male gender. A person born with a penis who has a male gender is a cis male.

No I get it, it's just that it still trips me up and makes me have to think of a diagram.
It's not intuitive to me yet, maybe it will over time, maybe it won't and I'll always have the mental hiccup.

The terms mtf and ftm are established and easy to understand I'll give you that. However, they are outdated and limited in their inclusivity.

As a result I would generally rather make a couple posts periodically explaining the terminology over using them.

I do apologize if I seem crass. The terminology thing is something I feel I have explained a lot, but I really try to be empathetic to those that genuinely want to do well, and are interested in how they can learn to be better.

IronBornCorps posted...

Trans is an adjective. The other corresponding adjective would be cis (your gender matches what you were assigned at birth)

That's not the confusing part. The confusion lies in the question of what the birth gender was, which "trans" does nothing to specify.

IronBornCorps posted...

male and female (among others I'm not getting into) are used to describe gender identity.

They could just as easily be used to describe birth gender. I would agree that it makes more sense for them to describe current gender than past, especially where those who pay attention to trans issues know that focusing on birth gender isn't something trans people generally like to do, but for those who don't pay such attention, that's a fairly arbitrary distinction.

Basically, "trans man" could mean "somebody who became trans and is now a man," or it could mean "somebody who was a man and has become trans." The former is more consistent with the established norm of respecting trans people's current gender identity over their assigned one, but plenty of people don't pay enough attention to connect those dots. It's an easy enough mistake to make and a simple enough correction that I think it's reasonable to give people some slack when they make it, unless they're being deliberately disingenuous about it (which they do because some people are turds).

shadowsword87 posted...

No I get it, it's just that it still trips me up and makes me have to think of a diagram.
It's not intuitive to me yet, maybe it will over time, maybe it won't and I'll always have the mental hiccup.

For clarity, this is also my position. I understand it, I think it makes sense, it just also makes sense the other way and I occasionally have to stop and think about it, or will confuse which one it is.

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No it's not a big deal, I just am vaguely complaining because I get confused.
I just don't like the term, and think there could probably be something better to describe it.

The fact that you explain it a lot, means I'm not the only one going through this as well.

I'm not saying that trans is wrong or bad or anything else like that. Just when I hear "trans man" I go "all right, so if they're trans, that means they were born of the opposite gender that they are now, and the opposite of a woman is a man, so that means...". I fully understand it and accept it, it's just it takes a second.

I understand the other position as well, but I feel it's got a lot to do with a fascination for knowing a trans persons genitals. Why would the label describe genitalia that may or may not have undergone medical procedures over how that person presents themselves every day. When you look at many trans men, you may not recognize them as trans at all. Because being a man is how they present themselves to the world.

shadowsword87 posted...

No it's not a big deal, I just am vaguely complaining because I get confused.
I just don't like the term, and think there could probably be something better to describe it.

The fact that you explain it a lot, means I'm not the only one going through this as well.

I'm not saying that trans is wrong or bad or anything else like that. Just when I hear "trans man" I go "all right, so if they're trans, that means they were born of the opposite gender that they are now, and the opposite of a woman is a man, so that means...". I fully understand it and accept it, it's just it takes a second.

Good on your for being honest. I don't find it that hard of a mental process, so maybe it will get easier!

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IronBornCorps posted...

Basically, despite being assigned female at birth, areas of the brain light up during a brain scan that show the brain is wired to expect the body to have a penis, and as a result can feel sensation similar to those who have experienced the loss of a limb.

Unused brain areas tend to get usurped by the surrounding areas. If the body never had a penis, the brain would never develop a "penis area". The area might light up, but that would be because of whatever other brain function managed to claim that area of the brain.

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Nichtcrawler X posted...

If the body never had a penis, the brain would never develop a "penis area".

yet for some people that is exactly what happens

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I posted a source a medical blog with doctors who conducted this research, but yeah some guy on the internet knows more about how the brain develops.

Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Penis Pain

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IronBornCorps posted...

I posted a source a medical blog with doctors who conducted this research, but yeah some guy on the internet knows more about how the brain develops.

Nah, I only know bits and pieces and it was not meant that adversarial. I just remember brain areas that lost their function for whatever reason can be integrated into other areas. As such the idea that a part of the brain could be dedicated and remain so to something that was never there in the first place sounds both weird and interesting.

Also, you just posted a tinyurl, I cannot tell from that what it is.

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Nichtcrawler X posted...

Nah, I only know bits and pieces and it was not meant that adversarial. I just remember brain areas that lost their function for whatever reason can be integrated into other areas. As such the idea that a part of the brain could be dedicated and remain so to something that was never there in the first place sounds both weird and interesting.

Also, you just posted a tinyurl, I cannot tell from that what it is.

It's interesting to me that you know enough to be wary about a shortened url, but at the same time don't know enough to enable tinyurl previews. Which would tell you that this one redirects to a page from researchgate.net.


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ReturnOfFa posted...

Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Penis Pain

Punished Snake

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shadowsword87 posted...

I can't find the exact experiment name, but, you hide someones hand and put a prosthetic in place (it doesn't need to be super convincing, just a box). Then you run a feather along the real hand, and the prosthetic hand so the brain links up the two. Then, very quickly, slam a hammer down on the prosthetic hand. The person feels the pain, jerks their hand back, and their hand is fine.
But, they still felt the pain.

Found it for you cause it was bothering me too. It's called the "Rubber Hand Illusion"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

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Clench281 posted...

ut at the same time don't know enough to enable tinyurl previews.

My browser is not even acknowledging it as a link.

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I also sometimes get confused about the correct term to use when talking about a trans person

I try to just refer people by their name usually

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I remember hearing a BoO podcast about Body Integrity Identity Disorder which is kind of like the opposite of having a phantom pain.

The human brain is crazy!

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IronBornCorps posted...

I understand the other position as well, but I feel it's got a lot to do with a fascination for knowing a trans persons genitals. Why would the label describe genitalia that may or may not have undergone medical procedures over how that person presents themselves every day. When you look at many trans men, you may not recognize them as trans at all. Because being a man is how they present themselves to the world.

To me I want to be able to visualize the person when I'm talking to them, and if they're presenting female, but male genitalia, whatever I don't care not my business. So, if someone says "I'm female" great, that helps me understand who I'm talking to. If someone says "I'm trans female", it... honestly doesn't matter to me, I just need the "female" part to visualize them, and instead it trips me up because then I need to flowchart it.

Same way I like to randomly know if someone is white, black, or whatever. Does it actually matter with who I'm talking to? No. But, I like to be able to visualize them, and that helps.

didn't read the topic, I'm sure its full of dipshittery.

any part cut off is fair game for "phantom limb" syndrome.

pretty sure the bone stock nervous system isn't prone to the latest SJW fad of the day...

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LuciferSage posted...

didn't read the topic, I'm sure its full of dipshittery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxeyJzWXxkk


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Wow, I suppose it's nice he admits to not reading it before going in with the transphobia.

On topic that is actually really interesting information, I only know a single genderfluid person irl and they are intersex and struggled a lot in their life for having an incomplete set of both sex organs so I have rather lacking information about such things.

The Phantom Penis is either a Star Wars prequel or a Kojima game.

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OK, where's the data in that link? I must be looking at the wrong place, because I only find a brief abstract with a mention of a survey and that's it