Current Events > Holy **** Biden might cancel student loans

(+) Yeah! (+)

s0nicfan posted...

comparing a voluntary loan to slavery shows that you are at best being wildly disingenuous,

the fact that you responded to that instead

voldothegr8 posted...

That wouldn't fly for murder or theft so why should it fly for loans?

ffs, don't make jballen look good in argument. do you know how hard that is to do?

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COVxy posted...

The argument is that everyone should have access to education, regardless of socioeconomic class.

They literally do.

I will admit tuition is outrageous and that is what needs to be addressed, but I 100% reject the argument "they didnt understand". Its bullshit and a cop out, period.

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s0nicfan posted...

comparing a voluntary loan to slavery shows that you are at best being wildly disingenuous, at worst so intellectually stunted that you could go on to get a PhD and still be reasoning at a second grade level. You can tell me which it is.

I'm not, you are arguing against a ending an immoral system because some people have money tied to keeping that immoral system place. To enact the civil rights & liberties you have today, people with money tied to preventing those civil rights & liberties had to take the loss. Freedom of Speech? To get that some rich asshole with money tied against that had to lose out.

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PoundGarden posted...

They literally do.

It's just that poor people are disproportionately punished for attempting to obtain it.

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Conflict posted...

Are you really comparing this shit to slavery lmao. You're not even trying

Is there a term for this like there's a term for making comparisons to Hitler

see post #53

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COVxy posted...

It's just that poor people are disproportionately punished for attempting to obtain it.

How do you figure that? Do they pay more or receive less service? Are they imprisoned or fined for the attempt? Not sure what you're saying here

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TheGoldenEel posted...

As someone whos already paid off my loans Im happy for other people

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Not happening.

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COVxy posted...

The argument is that everyone should have access to education, regardless of socioeconomic class.

Cancelling student debt does absolutely nothing to make college more accessible to poor people. Even making it free at the point of entry doesn't help with that. You are paying off the mortgage of someone who just bought an expensive house out in the suburbs and then claiming it will help the homeless somehow.

If people want free shit from the government, just say so. But stop pretending this is some kind of progressive policy, it would literally increase wealth inequality in this country.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Cancelling student debt does absolutely nothing to make college more accessible to poor people. Even making it free at the point of entry doesn't help with that. You are paying off the mortgage of someone who just bought an expensive house out in the suburbs and then claiming it will help the homeless somehow.

If people want free shit from the government, just say so. But stop pretending this is some kind of progressive policy, it would literally increase wealth inequality in this country.

Higher SES people are more likely to pursue a higher level of education and often take on more debt, but have an easier time paying it off such that accrual is higher among low SES.

Your argument is disingenuous.

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as someone that paid off the last of their student loans in sep 2020, i'm fine with this, student loans & expenses for college are a 8888ing joke and out of control
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COVxy posted...

Higher SES people are more likely to pursue a higher level of education and often take on more debt, but have an easier time paying it off such that accrual is higher among low SES.

It's funny that you think lower-income people are even getting into college in significant numbers.

They make up an almost non-existent share of both outstanding debt and monthly debt repayments. The average amount of borrowing for undergraduate degrees has remained relatively unchanged for decades, even as the income gap between HS and college graduates has increased.

This is left-wing trickle down economics. There is no point in pretending this helps poor people.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

It's funny that you think lower-income people are even getting into college in significant numbers.

They make up an almost non-existent share of both outstanding debt and monthly debt repayments. The average amount of borrowing for undergraduate degrees has remained relatively unchanged for decades, even as the income gap between HS and college graduates has increased.

This is left-wing trickle down economics. There is no point in pretending this helps poor people.

Just to clue you in. I don't give a shit that it helps more rich people because they share a proportionately larger amount of the total debt burden. I care that it helps poor people more. It would help me, for instance.

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Its a dumb decision because it doesnt affect people who will enroll next year and above. This doesnt actually address the problem of colleges being very expensive. He should at least push for community college to be free.

COVxy posted...

I care that it helps poor people more

It does not and it would be healthier I think if you just went with "it helps me" from now on.

But hey I'm assuming you support Trump's tax bill as well since a tiny share of that money went to poor people!

Broseph_Stalin posted...

It does not and it would be healthier I think if you just went with "it helps me" from now on.

But hey I'm assuming you support Trump's tax bill as well since a tiny share of that money went to poor people!

I don't think you understood my post, word order matters. It's like quantum physics!!

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COVxy posted...

I don't think you understood my post, word order matters. It's like quantum physics!!

I fully understand that this would benefit you personally so you've convinced yourself it's good policy much like rich people saying they need tax cuts because they are "job creators".

I'm just trying to bring a little more objectivity into this discussion and point out that we don't have to give away trillions to wealthy people because less than 5% of that might benefit poor people.

Maybe if I call him disingenuous no one will notice I'm the one advocating for handouts to wealthy people while pretending it will help the poor!

I'm confused why you think it would disproportionately help rich people in the first place. Obviously many of those people wouldn't have been rich going into college, otherwise why would they have taken out such large loans? Is the idea that those people became rich after the fact and are simply avoiding paying off their loans hoping for debt cancellation? If that's not the case then I truly don't understand your argument.

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Lmao @ responding seriously to broseph_stalin

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AceAttorneyist posted...

I'm confused why you think it would disproportionately help rich people in the first place. Obviously many of those people wouldn't have been rich going into college, otherwise why would they have taken out such large loans? Is the idea that those people became rich after the fact and are simply avoiding paying off their loans hoping for debt cancellation? If that's not the case then I truly don't understand your argument.

I'm not talking about the 1% who can pay for an ivy league degree out of pocket. I'm talking about people who come from middle to upper-middle class backgrounds, get a graduate degree and end up making six figures right out of college but complain about having to pay for that degree. That's your student loan "crisis".

We're letting people who would personally benefit from student debt forgiveness control the narrative over this issue, instead of asking if it's actually good policy. That is how Republicans always end up being able to pass tax cuts for the wealthy by claiming it will help poor people. It helps them.

When you know you're wrong but don't like people telling you you're wrong:

TheGoldenEel posted...

Lmao @ responding seriously to broseph_stalin

Conflict posted...

lmao pencildick. I'm gonna start using that

There was a game called Sewer Shark on Sega CD, and if you were sucking a guy would pop on screen and yell "GET THIS CRATE ON TRACK PENCILNECK!!!" Though he may have been saying pencildick, I just assumed that wouldn't have been approved language and it really sounded like he was saying pencildick lol

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no source, no believe

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

I'm not talking about the 1% who can pay for an ivy league degree out of pocket. I'm talking about people who come from middle to upper-middle class backgrounds, get a graduate degree and end up making six figures right out of college but complain about having to pay for that degree. That's your student loan "crisis".

do you have any data to back up this claim.

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Drpooplol posted...

do you have any data to back up this claim.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/

Drpooplol posted...

do you have any data to back up this claim.

For once, I agree with Stalin. No one making that argument has had to pay for college out of pocket. Not a goddamn one. It's usually people who haven't even attended college. And fuck those people especially.

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/

I mean it does look like forgiving student debt would disproportionately help upper-middle and upper class individuals. Isn't this easily helped by putting an income cap on the debt forgiveness?

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Drpooplol posted...

I mean it does look like forgiving student debt would disproportionately help upper-middle and upper class individuals. Isn't this easily helped by putting an income cap on the debt forgiveness?

All the people calling for cancellation of student loan debt are calling it for everyone.

It should realistically only be for those in the lower 30% of income if anything and should probably still make them pay a small percentage of each paycheck up to ten years.

Straight up canceling student debt before having a way to actually deal with the problem in the first place makes no sense.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

All the people calling for cancellation of student loan debt are calling it for everyone.

It should realistically only be for those in the lower 30% of income if anything and should probably still make them pay a small percentage of each paycheck up to ten years.

Straight up canceling student debt before having a way to actually deal with the problem in the first place makes no sense.

Yeah I think I agree with this. It seems pretty reasonable, but idk I haven't put a ton of thought into it. Also Broseph is still being abrasive to a stupid degree.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

All the people calling for cancellation of student loan debt are calling it for everyone.

It should realistically only be for those in the lower 30% of income if anything and should probably still make them pay a small percentage of each paycheck up to ten years.

Straight up canceling student debt before having a way to actually deal with the problem in the first place makes no sense.

the point of a college degree is to not be in the bottom 30% of income though

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Drpooplol posted...

I mean it does look like forgiving student debt would disproportionately help upper-middle and upper class individuals. Isn't this easily helped by putting an income cap on the debt forgiveness?

Well Biden's actual plan would forgive 10k in student debt which is somewhat similar, although that 10k would also go to the highest earners.

I'm more in favor of just giving money to poor people directly and letting them spend it on whatever they need. Like expanding the EITC for example, which Biden also wants to do as part of his stimulus plan.

Ultimately the cost of tuition is not what blocks poorer people from getting into college so I don't really want to see money being spent on that.

JBaLLEN66 posted...

the point of a college degree is to not be in the bottom 30% of income though

That's not how it's working out in practice.

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el_cheato posted...

That's not how it's working out in practice.

I thought people with college degress made more money than people without one despite the dude that worked 90 hours one special week as a truck driver to brag his paycheck on tik tok said?

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Yea this sounds pretty regressive without some means testing

Even then im still a little hesitant to say we should prioritize this over helping folks who dont have the privilege of a college degree

struggling to feel too strongly one way or another tho
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JBaLLEN66 posted...

the point of a college degree is to not be in the bottom 30% of income though

That's why I suggested for those who wind up in that percentile or lower would get the benefits of some loan cancellation.

That being said, this is a simplified plan and not the best or logical way to attack it but it's better than the current idea of "cancel all student debt".

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Drpooplol posted...

I mean it does look like forgiving student debt would disproportionately help upper-middle and upper class individuals. Isn't this easily helped by putting an income cap on the debt forgiveness?

Yeah, in the same way that marijuana decriminalization is actually mostly helping white people because the majority of marijuana arrests are white people.

It's stupid to argue from raw proportion.

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Education clearly didn't help the OP since he denies the facts of a certain historical atrocity committed during a major war so sure, cancel his debt lul.

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COVxy posted...

Yeah, in the same way that marijuana decriminalization is actually mostly helping white people because the majority of marijuana arrests are white people.

It's stupid to argue from raw proportion.

1. Awful comparison.
2. I'm aware this benefits each individual lower-income person by a lot more. I'm not Broseph. I agree that college costs hurt poor people a lot more than higher income individuals.
3. What's the argument against putting an income threshold in the forgiveness (i.e. your debt isn't forgiven if you make above X amount).

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Drpooplol posted...

1. Awful comparison.
2. I'm aware this benefits each individual lower-income person by a lot more. I'm not Broseph. I agree that college costs hurt poor people a lot more than higher income individuals.
3. What's the argument against putting an income threshold in the forgiveness (i.e. your debt isn't forgiven if you make above X amount).

It's appropriate because the reasoning is off in the same way, consideration of total value rather than the differential impact of that value.

I'm totally fine with it being means tested, but means testing can be a shit show, and probably makes this far less likely of an initiative to be pushed for. People don't give a shit about the poor. That's why you continuously hear about "the middle class" and "the working class". Given that middle class tends to have the largest total loan burden, this makes it a popular initiative. I'm all for helping the poor even if it means we have to help other people to get them to care.

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RIP Tax returns.

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Verdekal posted...

RIP Tax returns.

yeah I'm scared to do mine this year lol

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Not like I was paying my loans anyways.

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My neighbor is doctor and her husband is an engineer. Their student loans are close to their house payment and they live in a nice, middle class neighborhood.

If they get their loans forgiven they could upgrade to a $500k-700k house, I'm sure.

The fact of the matter is that Schools have a strangle on the costs of the services they provide. They can force you to only purchase books from their stores, can also charge you full price for a virtual lesson/lab fees/etc the list goes on and on. The problem is that the schools that are charging 30+k a year are also the ones banking off of sports and other business opportunities, they aren't acting in good faith and expanding their product in relation to the amount of money they are getting.

I'm not saying they shouldn't make money. But I know first hand that even your rinky dink small town university still has a dean with a 20k lincoln desk in his office and drives a Corvette. They make asinine amounts of money at the end of the day and don't even give back to their teachers unless youre in the upper echoes of respect. It's a toxic cycle that is making people dumber in america because they aren't getting proper educations even in college, and then are going into debt for a degree that's worth nothing.

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ImAMarvel posted...

So would this cancel debt for people still in school or what?

Free school hype!