Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 311: Ye says Nay

(+) Yeah! (+)

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Jesus. Was he murdered?

The only thing Ive seen is sudden illness secondhand, but he was literally posting yesterday so its just like...fuck

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Oh... yeah that sucks. I only ask because Rest in Power is for people that were murdered. Still terrible news.

Oh, it seems that Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are finally being accused of sexual harassment by a former colleague. Also accused Ed Henry of rape.

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time for more fishing vacation

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G5eEJTtKUw

uh oh

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Report into Russian interference in the UK:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=aW5kZXBlbmRlbnQuZ292LnVrfGlzY3xneDo1Y2RhMGEyN2Y3NjM0OWFl

Since people will be wondering about brexit in particular:

-Lots and lots of open-source evidence of Russian interference in the referendum.
-The committee asked the intelligence community, got almost no answer, not even the publicly available open source evidence.
-No investigation was done by MI5 because they thought it would be contentious and would influence people's votes.
-An investigation into Russian interference into brexit is deemed essential, but has not been done.

The best quote from the committee on the topic:

"Who is protecting our democratic process? In a nutshell, no-one is."

And there are many other key tidbits here, including the fact that the government's reasons for delaying the report from before the last referendum were false, and that the government is trying to politicise the report to deunk it to help themselves. Horrible.

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well it's slightly reassuring to know it's not just the US that is completely clueless when it comes to cyberwarfare

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I mean of course Russia tried to influence the Brexit referendum. The US and UK have influenced other countries' internal politics for like centuries. They, and the EU, are still doing so today. It's really emblematic of nationalistic exceptionalism to act like the US/UK somehow have a right not to be influenced by other countries.

If Russia was stuffing votes, that would be a very different thing, but if it amounted to running ads on Facebook, it's not a big deal and doesn't make the outcome of the vote less legitimate.

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/21/ohio-house-speaker-larry-householder-arrested-bribery-case-source/5478219002/

Woah

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I guess you could say that Householder...

Won't hold onto the House.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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red sox 777 posted...

I mean of course Russia tried to influence the Brexit referendum. The US and UK have influenced other countries' internal politics for like centuries. They, and the EU, are still doing so today. It's really emblematic of nationalistic exceptionalism to act like the US/UK somehow have a right not to be influenced by other countries.

If Russia was stuffing votes, that would be a very different thing, but if it amounted to running ads on Facebook, it's not a big deal and doesn't make the outcome of the vote less legitimate.

Good to know you're in favor of the US and UK effectively becoming Russian puppet states.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Good to know you're in favor of the US and UK effectively becoming Russian puppet states.

The US and UK both have bigger economies than Russia and the US has more world influence. That they can be influenced somewhat does not make them puppet states.

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Lets not whatabout regarding corrupting other countries democracies. Plus outside the US rules regarding funding are a lot stricter so yes ads and money are a big deal and can be argued to invalidate the result. It doesnt matter though, because the UK government didnt look, and isnt going to look. Awful.

Id recommend reading it btw, its pretty short. Definitely more damning than I expected because of the sheer amount of negligence. They actually demonstrate how the UK response was significantly worse than the USs. You guys started to course correct fairly quickly, we have done nothing to solve the problem at all.

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red sox 777 posted...

The US and UK both have bigger economies than Russia and the US has more world influence. That they can be influenced somewhat does not make them puppet states.

Somewhat.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

You guys started to course correct fairly quickly, we have done nothing to solve the problem at all.

citation needed

Not in comparing responses, but that the US government has actually course corrected. The GOP refuses to act on election security and election infrastructure in the states is as awful as ever.

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Oh, also, despite having been defeated on the citizenship question on the census in SCOTUS, the Trump Administration is taking another crack at it.

Issued an Executive Order that seeks to prevent undocumented immigrants from being included in the count for Congressional reapportionment. Having been barred from having the census ask the question they're trying to rely on a previous EO that sought to collect data on the numbers here.

Thread on it here examining the legal argument the Administration is likely to make, the legal questions that would likely be challenged to throw this out, and the potential issues that challenging it at all could face: https://twitter.com/MikeSacksEsq/status/1285610168479363072

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xp1337 posted...

Oh, also, despite having been defeated on the citizenship question on the census in SCOTUS, the Trump Administration is taking another crack at it.

Issued an Executive Order that seeks to prevent undocumented immigrants from being included in the count for Congressional reapportionment. Having been barred from having the census ask the question they're trying to rely on a previous EO that sought to collect data on the numbers here.

Thread on it here examining the legal argument the Administration is likely to make, the legal questions that would likely be challenged to throw this out, and the potential issues that challenging it at all could face: https://twitter.com/MikeSacksEsq/status/1285610168479363072

Fucking disgusting.

The 14th Amendment seems pretty unambiguous, though??

https://twitter.com/stevenportnoy/status/1285625104202956801?s=21

Unless the argument is that they can change apportionment within, but not between, states.

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Well, yeah, it is unambiguous. But the Constitution has never stopped them before.

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https://twitter.com/RetiredMaybe/status/1285672867678617601?s=19

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To be fair, the framers probably intended it the way that Trump interprets it. However, conservative law backs the letter of the law and not the intent and precedent over interpretation.

It is funny that progressives who always back intent over precedent and interpretation over letter of the law now will flip when it is convenient however.

It would be good if the law could be amended to make it clear illegal inhabitants are not here in actuality and not to be counted, but it is what it is as of now unfortunately.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Fucking disgusting.

The 14th Amendment seems pretty unambiguous, though??

https://twitter.com/stevenportnoy/status/1285625104202956801?s=21

Unless the argument is that they can change apportionment within, but not between, states.

It says:

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed

There's some ambiguity regarding whether it includes travelers. Also, the term "Indians not taxed" also introduces some ambiguity.

Congress and the Federal Government does not have the power to change apportionment within states. That power is reserved to the state legislatures.

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Corrik7 posted...

To be fair, the framers probably intended it the way that Trump interprets it. However, conservative law backs the letter of the law and not the intent and precedent over interpretation.

It is funny that progressives who always back intent over precedent and interpretation over letter of the law now will flip when it is convenient however.

It would be good if the law could be amended to make it clear illegal inhabitants are not here in actuality and not to be counted, but it is what it is as of now unfortunately.

Oh, if we're going by intent the framers most certainly did not intend to only count citizens. They expressly said:

which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons

So they said to apportion representation based on noncitizens. The 14th Amendment then got rid of the part about 3/5 representation.

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and excluding Indians not taxed

Well illegal immigrants are certainly not taxed (not at the federal level, at least).

And the entire Hispanic ethnicity is basically a result of interbreeding between Spanish and native Americans, so they likely would count as "Indians" under a definition the framers would have been comfortable with!

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SmartMuffin posted...

Well illegal immigrants are certainly not taxed (not at the federal level, at least).

Pretty sure they actually are though

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Corrik7 posted...

To be fair, the framers probably intended it the way that Trump interprets it. However, conservative law backs the letter of the law and not the intent and precedent over interpretation.

It is funny that progressives who always back intent over precedent and interpretation over letter of the law now will flip when it is convenient however.

It would be good if the law could be amended to make it clear illegal inhabitants are not here in actuality and not to be counted, but it is what it is as of now unfortunately.

Dude the first immigration laws werent even made until over 10 years after the 14th Amendment, how and why could you possibly say they intended it to be this way?


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SmartMuffin posted...

Well illegal immigrants are certainly not taxed (not at the federal level, at least).

The IRS says they get $9B in annual federal income tax from illegal immigrants

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/20-Immigration%20and%20Taxation.pdf
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Watching Trump's press conference now. He's gotten to the point where I'm starting to have trouble constructing consistent, meaningful, sentences out of what he's saying. I think he just said it's a bad thing that people got more money than they were expecting. And that we're going to keep the same amount of aid but we're going to cut it to 70%.

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Corrik7 posted...

To be fair, the framers probably intended it the way that Trump interprets it. However, conservative law backs the letter of the law and not the intent and precedent over interpretation.

It is funny that progressives who always back intent over precedent and interpretation over letter of the law now will flip when it is convenient however.

It would be good if the law could be amended to make it clear illegal inhabitants are not here in actuality and not to be counted, but it is what it is as of now unfortunately.

In addition to representation in Congress and the Electoral College, apportionment also determines how much money states and localities get from the federal government. All residents, whether citizens, legal immigrants, or undocumented immigrants, contribute to a state's or locality's costs for policing, roads, coronavirus testing, whatever.

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Trump officially endorses pedophilia.

https://twitter.com/abc/status/1285690484845883392?s=21

Lol
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UshiromiyaEva posted...

https://twitter.com/RetiredMaybe/status/1285672867678617601?s=19

Apparently, people linked to the full story in the comments which says the cops were called because he was riding the bike through the store and yelling at people, and refused to leave when asked to.

EDIT: Granted, I dug through the comments a bit and couldn't find any links, so Iunno if that's true or not.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Dude the first immigration laws werent even made until over 10 years after the 14th Amendment, how and why could you possibly say they intended it to be this way?

He knows that the founders would have agreed with his personal interpretation, that's all

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LordoftheMorons posted...

In addition to representation in Congress and the Electoral College, apportionment also determines how much money states and localities get from the federal government. All residents, whether citizens, legal immigrants, or undocumented immigrants, contribute to a state's or locality's costs for policing, roads, coronavirus testing, whatever.

Uh, illegal immigrants shouldn't contribute to shit. They should be referred to the proper authority for deportation.

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Corrik7 posted...

Uh, illegal immigrants shouldn't contribute to shit. They should be referred to the proper authority for deportation.

Well, it costs money to deport them. So if a state has a lot of them, shouldn't it get more money so it can hire more police and judges and court clerks to handle all the removal cases?

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Corrik7 posted...

Uh, illegal immigrants shouldn't contribute to shit. They should be referred to the proper authority for deportation.

Thats your opinion and youre welcome to it, but it obviously is not the opinion of the government
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red sox 777 posted...

Well, it costs money to deport them. So if a state has a lot of them, shouldn't it get more money so it can hire more police and judges and court clerks to handle all the removal cases?

Federal issues.

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https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1285694278694567936?s=21
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Trump is prosecutor in chief of the country (the attorney general gives advice, Trump gives the commands). The Ghislaine Maxwell case is a federal case. If Trump wants a successful investigation, not politicizing it at this point would be a reasonable strategy.

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red sox 777 posted...

Trump is prosecutor in chief of the country (the attorney general gives advice, Trump gives the commands). The Ghislaine Maxwell case is a federal case. If Trump wants a successful investigation, not politicizing it at this point would be a reasonable strategy.

I agree, Im mostly laughing because of QAnon issues it raises
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Oh God, Trump actually said Covid 19 will get worse before it gets better.

Is Muffin gonna be okay?

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xp1337 posted...

citation needed

Not in comparing responses, but that the US government has actually course corrected. The GOP refuses to act on election security and election infrastructure in the states is as awful as ever.

Yep, that is fair. To be more exact I more meant the country as a whole in that the investigation was thorough and successful, and (knock on wood) it is looking like Trump will be gone soon in many ways as a result of the response.

Thats far from perfect, but today the UK government said it doesnt care at all.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Oh God, Trump actually said Covid 19 will get worse before it gets better.

Is Muffin gonna be okay?

I saw a Fox News article the other day stating that Trump's polling was cratering, that Biden was trusted to do better against COVID, and that lockdowns were super popular.

I'm honestly Trump hasn't ordered a national lockdown by now.

I've never claimed Trump isn't stupid, or that he won't do exactly what he thinks will help him win with no regard for much of anything else.

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We actually agree there: Trump is literally doing this to save his election chances and that's it. He saw how much his ratings bumped when he first "took it seriously" and now he's gonna try it again.

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/21/politics/republicans-in-congress-and-white-house-showdown-on-stimulus/index.html

Any predictions on where the divided Republicans will fall on the next COVID relief deal?
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TheRock1525 posted...

We actually agree there: Trump is literally doing this to save his election chances and that's it. He saw how much his ratings bumped when he first "took it seriously" and now he's gonna try it again.

It's honestly probably one of the dumbest things Trump has ever done. COVID is basically over now, everywhere except the isolated rural states that never really had it. It's entirely possible that by November, we'll look back on this very week as the moment when everything started trending down and it became a non-issue.

"It's going to get worse" may have been true in March and early April. And it may have been true again in late May or early June. But it's absolutely NOT true today. Not even close.

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SmartMuffin posted...

COVID is basically over now,

oh good

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Jakyl25 posted...

Any predictions on where the divided Republicans will fall on the next COVID relief deal?

The Senate bill? Like $200 Unemployment, no payroll tax holiday, liability protections to corporations, some token funding to CDC, and a handful of "wtf" posion pill-esque things.

But just like all the previous rounds it won't actually matter because the final result will be the result of Pelosi negotiating with Mnuchin and just ignoring McConnell.

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DOJ arguing in court that it should be able to arrest reporters and legal observers if they fail to comply with orders to disperse (this is all in regards to Portland) because it would be too burdensome for the feds to try and distinguish them from protesters.

https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1285739940329005056

"not entitled to special, after-hours access" damn didn't see the part where freedom of the press had a curfew

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red sox 777 posted...

I mean of course Russia tried to influence the Brexit referendum. The US and UK have influenced other countries' internal politics for like centuries. They, and the EU, are still doing so today. It's really emblematic of nationalistic exceptionalism to act like the US/UK somehow have a right not to be influenced by other countries.

If Russia was stuffing votes, that would be a very different thing, but if it amounted to running ads on Facebook, it's not a big deal and doesn't make the outcome of the vote less legitimate.

And the people of those countries have every right to, and they should, call out the US/UK when they do so. The only one holding anyone to a double standard here is you.

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"It will probably unfortunately get worse before it gets better. Something I don't like saying about things, but that's the way it is." - Trump on Covid-19.

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