Current Events > Orcs are trending on twitter Are Orcs in fantasy literature racist caricature?

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://twitter.com/bleongambetta/status/1254420983034843139

Orcs have caused a stir and are on the trending list for an odd reason. There's been a line in a DnD book about roleplaying an as an Orc that sounds awfully like some uncomfortable narratives.

https://i.imgur.com/rdI4MNV.jpg

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When the orc meme was a thing because of the migrant crisis (horrible), I thought it was a race thing but it could be about other shit too clearly

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Why do some people have to find racism in everything these days? Holy fuck this is absurd.
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fuck people are dumb

DarthAragorn posted...

fuck people are dumb

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Who cares. People say dumb stuff all the time.

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If people read that and think of human races, that is their problem.

You can't say, "A spear is a racist concept. You should never use it in any media."

Okay, you can say anything. But 'cha kinda look like a dumbass for doing so. :v

If people want to have things like cannibalism, hostile tribes, war paint, etc., they should be allowed to do so as long as they go through the proper channels. The next thing up from this is saying we can't have space outlaws because they borrow from the stereotype of the "Mexican bandit."


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voldothegr8 posted...

Why do some people have to find racism in everything these days? Holy fuck this is absurd.

That's outrage culture for you.

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Yeah I've seen some of this, people thinking it's somehow racist against black people.

If you read that description and instantly think "black person" then it's pretty clear where the racism lies tbh

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ORCS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!!

fucking hell, force people inside for a few weeks and they just go looking for trouble...

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I think Tolkien had racial coding that was pretty clearly evident, but I don't think LotR or D&D are racist.
It's hard to build a fantasy setting eithout reflecting some of the real world.

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voldothegr8 posted...

Why do some people have to find racism in everything these days? Holy fuck this is absurd.

Could not agree more.

He could at least be willing to say why he thinks this, not just "Fuck off if you disagree, blocking, don't ask" as most people aren't going to take him seriously and very likely just see Orcs as a made up fantasy race with no relation to real life.

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Finally being racist against fictional race is a thing now. With that said, Khajiits are body-snatchers from The Past

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So according to these idiots you can't ever create a FICTIONAL GROUP OF CREATURES that have FICTIONAL attributes because racists have assumed those attributes incorrectly for generations?

I guess we can never create any FICTIONAL creatures ever again unless they are so virtuous and without fault that they basically are angels.


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What a wokescold

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Again, this is NOT new. Tolkien explicitly made dwarves resemble Jews (their speech...) and had been criticized for his use of dark/black orcs and light elves in the 40's. You guys are 80 years late to this outrage culture.

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Are Orcs in fantasy literature racist caricature

Of course. see also: Star Trek.

All members of any race (outside of human) are typecast and painted with very broad, monolithic strokes.
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ChocoboMogALT posted...

Again, this is NOT new. Tolkien explicitly made dwarves resemble Jews (their speech...) and had been criticized for his use of dark/black orcs and light elves in the 40's. You guys are 80 years late to this outrage culture.

I won't comment on dwarves = Jews because I only read The Hobbit and half of LotR once each, well over a decade ago and just don't remember

But the orcs and elves/black and white thing is fucking stupid considering the whole light vs shadow thing the whole series had

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Again, this is NOT new. Tolkien explicitly made dwarves resemble Jews (their speech...) and had been criticized for his use of dark/black orcs and light elves in the 40's. You guys are 80 years late to this outrage culture.

Not to mention his Arabian and African analogues all served or were allies with Sauron.

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DarthAragorn posted...

But the orcs and elves/black and white thing is fucking stupid considering the whole light vs shadow thing the whole series had

why do you think that both can't be true

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averagejoel posted...

DarthAragorn posted...

But the orcs and elves/black and white thing is fucking stupid considering the whole light vs shadow thing the whole series had

why do you think that both can't be true

Mainly because there's already black people in Middle Earth and they weren't orcs, but who cares hurrdurr racism!

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Not to mention his Arabian and African analogues all served or were allies with Sauron.

Those were mercenaries, and there's a whole segment in the Two Towers where Sam/Faramir mention they are just folks mislead into a war.

They aren't portrayed as some horrible evil group of people.

Remember when some jackass director tried to hit that point over our heads with a concrete block of a film called Bright?

Why are we going back to that stupid ass reach of a take again...

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Jagr_68 posted...

Remember when some jackass director tried to hit that point over our heads with a concrete block of a film called Bright?

Why are we going back to that stupid ass reach of a take again...

People enjoying bashing over people's heads about how racist they are, duh.

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malenz posted...

Jagr_68 posted...
Remember when some jackass director tried to hit that point over our heads with a concrete block of a film called Bright?

Why are we going back to that stupid ass reach of a take again...
People enjoying bashing over people's heads about how racist they are, duh.

Obviously. Also reeks of narcissism and bored privilege.

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Reminds me of this post LMAO @konokonohamaru



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Tolkien outright said that his Orcs were based on a racist caricature of Mongolians, but also said not to confuse his fictional Orcs with actual Mongolian people who aren't anything like that.

And D&D orcs are based on Tolkien Orcs.

Seems like you have to squint really hard while doing backflips to say WotC's Orcs are reinforcing racism just by existing.

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Some people are trying to find racism in anything so they can take a grand noble stand to make themselves look good.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

Tolkien explicitly made dwarves resemble Jews (their speech...)

I think that's about a big of stretch as the orcs = black people thing.

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Not to mention his Arabian and African analogues all served or were allies with Sauron.

They were, but the books themselves don't make those people out to be evil, but possibly tricked or coerced into fighting for Sauron. The "white" people in the Middle Earth world also were tricked by Sauron before.

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The only good orc is a dead orc. For the Alliance.

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"latinx" in twitter bio

all i need to know
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Why is it always woke white people telling other minorities what to be offended by

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orcs vs humans in wc3

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Here is a more in depth comment about racial influences in Tolkien's literature. It's safe to say at this point it's basically all been scrubbed out by WotC and their biggest problem is their past releases still shitting up their image.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6l3pib/was_tolkien_partly_inspired_by_race_ideologies/djqzoi1

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Every night I wander around the Gray Quarter and let them gray-skins know what I think of them.

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voldothegr8 posted...

Why do some people have to find racism in everything these days? Holy fuck this is absurd.

Hot take culture. Gotta find the next big outrage to be famous. Ugh.

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I would have thought that the SJWs would go after Dark Elves first.

I feel like after theyre done with fantasy tropes theyll move on to science fiction and declare Klingons as being racist. I wont stand and let them drag Worf & his honor through the mud just because he comes from a somewhat violent warrior race that happens to be brown.

And eventually theyll move on to Star Wars and demand the dark side of the force be renamed. Its the bad side of the force but why it gotta be dark????

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iPhone_7 posted...

I feel like after theyre done with fantasy tropes theyll move on to science fiction and declare Klingons as being racist. I wont stand and let them drag Worf & his honor through the mud just because he comes from a somewhat violent warrior race that happens to be brown.

Star Trek is actually kind of racist though, so they'll at least have a better argument.

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iPhone_7 posted...

I would have thought that the SJWs would go after Dark Elves first.

I feel like after theyre done with fantasy tropes theyll move on to science fiction and declare Klingons as being racist. I wont stand and let them drag Worf & his honor through the mud just because he comes from a somewhat violent warrior race that happens to be brown.

And eventually theyll move on to Star Wars and demand the dark side of the force be renamed. Its the bad side of the force but why it gotta be dark????

The drow have been #1 on the hit list for the longest time because the whole fucking race is simultaneously "dark people bad" and "women bad"

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I mean, it is problematic that you have entire races defined basically as stereotypes, even if they're fictional. It promotes lazy thinking, at best.
That goes for any fiction.

ElatedVenusaur posted...

I mean, it is problematic that you have entire races defined basically as stereotypes, even if they're fictional. It promotes lazy thinking, at best.
That goes for any fiction.

It's more complex than that. It's more like X evil God created Y race to be exactly like this. They're not monocultures "just cause"

I mean it's still lazy but it's not really what you're describing.

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How is that lazier than heres a race where everyone is randomly unique. At least with well defined cultures and traits you can form cohesive conflicts and ideas around.

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Has no one brought up that Tolkien once got a letter of praise by Nazis and he told them to fuck off?

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ElatedVenusaur posted...

I mean, it is problematic that you have entire races defined basically as stereotypes, even if they're fictional. It promotes lazy thinking, at best.
That goes for any fiction.

and it is especially problematic when those stereotypes line up with racist stereotypes in real life

there is some nuance to be had from the other end of this, but as usual, CE is just going full "this can't be racist and anyone who says otherwise is DUMB" about it

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