Current Events > Orcs are trending on twitter Are Orcs in fantasy literature racist caricature?

(+) Yeah! (+)

pegusus123456 posted...

Star Trek is actually kind of racist though, so they'll at least have a better argument.

Racial coding != racist. Racial allegories are fine, IMO. OG Klingons had a pretty decent rap. The worst I can think of are TNG Ferengi and that one really bad TNG African episode.
Same for Tolkien. Racial coding is not necessarily racism.

DarthAragorn posted...

But the orcs and elves/black and white thing is fucking stupid considering the whole light vs shadow thing the whole series had

I don't think it's racist. But the coding is there. Light versus Dark has been used throughout history to back up racist stories. Look at Birth of a Nation orless wellknown Community's episode Journey to the Center of Hawkthorne.
But I think Tolkien was steeped in European history and equated dark to death from his time in the war. If anything, his depictions of dwarves has been more far harmful to Jews.

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https://youtu.be/Q_1dZe-yFjI
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CapnMuffin posted...

How is that lazier than heres a race where everyone is randomly unique. At least with well defined cultures and traits you can form cohesive conflicts and ideas around.

Race as culture is the lazy part.

If you want to have a monolithic culture to have conflicts around, just create a culture and don't make it the exclusive domain of a specific race.

Like this somehow isn't a problem when fantasy literature consists of only or mostly humans. Certainly didn't stop GRRM from creating the Dothraki culture. But once you've got elves man holy shit the whole race is exactly the same.

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ChocoboMogALT posted...

Racial coding != racist. Racial allegories are fine, IMO. OG Klingons had a pretty decent rap. The worst I can think of are TNG Ferengi and that one really bad TNG African episode.
Same for Tolkien. Racial coding is not necessarily racism.

I meant more that the characters in Trek are super racist, it's just not as overt because it's against alien species instead of normal human races. Like it's a completely routine thing to distrust a character just because they're Romulan or assuming a Klingon is going to be violent.

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Orc isn't even a race, it's a species. But this probably has been said already.

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pegusus123456 posted...

I meant more that the characters in Trek are super racist, it's just not as overt because it's against alien species instead of normal human races. Like it's a completely routine thing to distrust a character just because they're Romulan or assuming a Klingon is going to be violent.

It's kinda funny since Gene Roddenberry said the Ferengi are the "humans" of Star Trek.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Orc isn't even a race, it's a species. But this probably has been said already.

Do you even D&D?

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pegusus123456 posted...

Star Trek is actually kind of racist though, so they'll at least have a better argument.

But everyone acknowledges that the Original Series had racism despite its attempts to speak out against it. It was a 60s show. Its not like the show did its racism maliciously, it was just out of ignorance.

TNG was a more thoughtful show, very diplomatic. It heavily tackled the issue of racism and their way of doing it was whenever they encountered a new alien culture. Also it had to be alien cultures or lost human colonies because on Earth humanity was united and pretty much became the same everywhere.

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pegusus123456 posted...

I meant more that the characters in Trek are super racist, it's just not as overt because it's against alien species instead of normal human races. Like it's a completely routine thing to distrust a character just because they're Romulan or assuming a Klingon is going to be violent.

Oh yeah.
Most of the time the prejudice is the conflict. The Romulans mirror bots of the USSR and Cold War and even modern Russia in Picard (though I think the Federation is the Communists and Romulans the Capitalists, at least until Picard).

But McCoy is just completely racist in a way that totally shouldn't be acceptable in that era.

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iPhone_7 posted...

But everyone acknowledges that the Original Series had racism despite its attempts to speak out against it. It was a 60s show. Its not like the show did its racism maliciously, it was just out of ignorance.

TNG was a more thoughtful show, very diplomatic. It heavily tackled the issue of racism and their way of doing it was whenever they encountered a new alien culture. Also it had to be alien cultures or lost human colonies because on Earth humanity was united and pretty much became the same everywhere.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Do you even D&D?

I cant because humans are d8cks? Or is that why this topic gets posts

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Ivynn posted...

Has no one brought up that Tolkien once got a letter of praise by Nazis and he told them to fuck off?

I dont think anyones saying Tolkien or anyone else indulging in these tropes is necessarily malicious. Just that its lazy and problematic.

Also, some one mentioned drow and goddamn I almost forgot how ridiculously, over-the-top evil they are. Like, counting Drizzt, there are, like, four drow in Forgotten Realms who arent sadistic psychopathic monsters.
But then therere are a bunch of entire races and countries in that setting that arent much better!

The worst part is that he just says thing and tells everyone he isnt discussing it and will block those that do.

great communication. Cant imagine why anyone would call this dude out.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

I cant because humans are d8cks? Or is that why this topic gets posts

Because Orcs are a race.

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ElatedVenusaur posted...

Also, some one mentioned drow and goddamn I almost forgot how ridiculously, over-the-top evil they are. Like, counting Drizzt, there are, like, four drow in Forgotten Realms who arent sadistic psychopathic monsters.

I don't know a lot about the official D&D lore, but isn't Lolth still heavily involved with that race? Like she personally curses drow that go against her rules. I think it makes sense that your race is over-the-top evil if you're turned into a braindead spider monster any time you try to stop being evil.

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ElatedVenusaur posted...

I dont think anyones saying Tolkien or anyone else indulging in these tropes is necessarily malicious. Just that its lazy and problematic

part of the problem is that a lot of people assume, incorrectly, that something can't be racist if it wasn't intentionally racist

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pegusus123456 posted...

I don't know a lot about the official D&D lore, but isn't Lolth still heavily involved with that race? Like she personally curses drow that go against her rules. I think it makes sense that your race is over-the-top evil if you're turned into a braindead spider monster any time you try to stop being evil.

Lolth can curse individuals but typically you have to piss her off personally somehow. It's not unheard of but not exactly common. The enforcement for their culture comes from the priestesses in their religion and that Drow have a hard time in the light so they tend to stay underground which makes it difficult for them to escape the religion and they're not really going to find many welcoming arms elsewhere.

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Lord of the Rings already had black people, Southrons. And they were depicted as evil (or at least under the control of Sauron). Seems weird to say the corrupted elves were actually the black people instead of the actual black people.

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ssjevot posted...

Lord of the Rings already had black people, Southrons. And they were depicted as evil (or at least under the control of Sauron). Seems weird to say the corrupted elves were actually the black people instead of the actual black people.

Well the original context here is D&D which doesn't have that. People are only talking about Tolkien here insofar as D&D races were inspired by Tolkien.

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orcs are a dogwhistle for pitbulls

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Man life must be fucking gooooood if people have the time to bitch about Orcs.

gamer167 posted...

Man life must be fucking gooooood if people have the time to bitch about Orcs.

Zug zug.
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gamer167 posted...

Man life must be fucking gooooood if people have the time to bitch about Orcs.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year olds life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

~John Rogers

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Lolth can curse individuals but typically you have to piss her off personally somehow. It's not unheard of but not exactly common. The enforcement for their culture comes from the priestesses in their religion and that Drow have a hard time in the light so they tend to stay underground which makes it difficult for them to escape the religion and they're not really going to find many welcoming arms elsewhere.

I think the funniest drow-related scene is when they invade the Dwarven kingdom ruled by Drizzt's BFF Bruenor and some of them end up outside fighting, and they see the sun rising and they try to blot it out with magical spheres of darkness.
R.A. Salvatore managed something good like that now and again.
I also vaguely remember a random orc paladin or something. I read so many of those books. They were mostly dumb.

Lastly, it's worth pointing out that there are plenty of fantasy universes that avoid falling into this trap. Like, Mass Effect does a really good job of it. We see all kinds of aliens doing all kinds of things, the only species that are pretty one-note are batarians and vorcha, but even then not entirely.

SydneyGottlieb posted...

Zug zug.

Me not that kind of orc

Tyranthraxus posted...

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats

I fast forwarded through those back in the past type episodes in both The Original Series & The Next Generation

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Eh? The orcs seem more like some kinda vikings to me, certainly not a metaphor for black people.

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I like how Arcanum handled orcs.

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I like how nobody is really agreeing with this and there are no apparent other major instances of someone dropping a hit take like this yet yall are still seething for 80+ posts about it

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Tactical_Spork posted...

I like how nobody is really agreeing with this and there are no apparent other major instances of someone dropping a hit take like this yet yall are still seething for 80+ posts about it

This topic's pretty chill tbh. I think your post here is the maddest one.

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pegusus123456 posted...

This topic's pretty chill tbh. I think your post here is the maddest one.

Idk i skimmed the first page and there was an awful lot of sjws!!!

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People who put pronouns in their Twitter bio are always dipshits. Seemingly invariably.

Sigh.

DarthAragorn posted...

fuck people are dumb

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Well the original context here is D&D which doesn't have that. People are only talking about Tolkien here insofar as D&D races were inspired by Tolkien.

But more seriously, am I reading you incorrectly or are you suggesting there aren't black humans in D&D? Because there are obviously black humans in D&D.

I don't think we can say orcs/half-orcs are just a stand-in for black people if we have black humans in-game that aren't like orcs/half-orcs.

Full disclosure, most of my involvement with D&D comes from PC games based on it. Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, etc.

Twitter is cancer.

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Esrac posted...

I don't think we can say orcs/half-orcs are just a stand-in for black people if we have black humans in-game that aren't like orcs/half-orcs.

that was never the point in the first place, and I'm not sure how you could have gotten that idea

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So is the consensus that orcs are racist or no?

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Dumb sjws making fools out of themselves again. Can we just lump these losers with the same people upset about manspreading and white people studying. People who thought the OK hand gesture was racist or sexist or some shit. They all need mental help

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MC_BatCommander posted...

Yeah I've seen some of this, people thinking it's somehow racist against black people.

If you read that description and instantly think "black person" then it's pretty clear where the racism lies tbh

Yeah, I dont see it either. There is definitely imagery in sports, television and other entertainment we could say is racist or at least has racist origins. But orcs? It seems like a long stretch.

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ElatedVenusaur posted...

I think the funniest drow-related scene is when they invade the Dwarven kingdom ruled by Drizzt's BFF Bruenor and some of them end up outside fighting, and they see the sun rising and they try to blot it out with magical spheres of darkness.
R.A. Salvatore managed something good like that now and again.
I also vaguely remember a random orc paladin or something. I read so many of those books. They were mostly dumb.

Lastly, it's worth pointing out that there are plenty of fantasy universes that avoid falling into this trap. Like, Mass Effect does a really good job of it. We see all kinds of aliens doing all kinds of things, the only species that are pretty one-note are batarians and vorcha, but even then not entirely.

Eh. Really only the Asari and Turians are shown to have variety. Krogans are totally one note. Quarians are mostly one note with Tali'zorah being kind of an exception. The geth are.... Two notes I guess. An upgrade but not by much.

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Esrac posted...

But more seriously, am I reading you incorrectly or are you suggesting there aren't black humans in D&D? Because there are obviously black humans in D&D.

I don't think we can say orcs/half-orcs are just a stand-in for black people if we have black humans in-game that aren't like orcs/half-orcs.

Full disclosure, most of my involvement with D&D comes from PC games based on it. Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, etc.

It doesn't have black humans that are controlled by Sauron as a race (or D&D's equivalent, Bane).

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Makes you thankful the LotR trilogy was made 20 years ago and not today

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FaultyGourry posted...

Twitter is cancer.

It's only recently.

All the idiots from Tumblr moved to Twitter and are spreading their horse shit there

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Maeiv posted...

It's only recently.

All the idiots from Tumblr moved to Twitter and are spreading their horse shit there

Nah that's not where Tumblr users went. Twitter has just been attracting a giant swarm of idiots because of Trump.

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Fof the ALLIANCE!!!

Tyranthraxus posted...

Twitter has just been attracting a giant swarm of idiots because of Trump.

It was attracting giant swarms of idiots long before Trump became president
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toyota posted...

Fof the ALLIANCE!!!

The night elves are the real villains for not forgiving the genocide of their people.

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