Board 8 > Why is FF8s writing so poor compared to its generational siblings

(+) Yeah! (+)

LeonhartFour posted...

well one of FFVIII's issues is that the game gives you the option to be mean to Rinoa repeatedly without consequence so that can make it seem forced if you chose to go that route because you don't like her

it really shouldn't make a lot of their bonding moments optional but the game does plenty to show you ahead of time that Squall has feelings for Rinoa even if he won't admit it to anyone, including himself

Not only does it let you be mean without consequence but it also does so in a way where you can have a completely consistent version of Squall that legit does not have interest in Rinoa if you pick all of them. And it holds really well till Disc 3 too.

I would say that if FFVIII had affection meters and allowed different scene variations in a few spots like the Eyes on Me part it would be a much better game for it. As it is I kinda agree that it's a bit hamfisted in a lot of spots. Kinda just forces a lot of things that don't entirely seem natural even if you can argue it was technically foreshadowed or whatever. The orphanage scene is the same kind of thing.

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That being said I would say FFIX is just as bad in this regard in many ways-- most of the character development in particular among the cast members seems forced and just there because that's what the story dictates rather than something that naturally occurs due to the events of the story. I don't really feel either game is super well written. There are reasons FFVII is the most popular PSX FF by a lot and it's not just because it's the first one of the three.

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the orphanage thing is legit hilarious

and surprisingly not the only game I've played that used the exact same plot twist (FF8 does it better though)
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My issue with FFIX's characters is that it feels like half of the playable cast doesn't really belong there and doesn't really interact with anyone other than Zidane.

FFVIII's cast by and large might not have a lot of individual character development but at least they all feel like friends.

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Yeah that would be part of the reason character developments seem forced I think-- a lot of characters do stuff entirely to act as vessels or parallels or whatever to facilitate some change that occurs to Zidane more than feeling like full characters themselves. This kinda hurts both them (cause it's sorta too fast for what time/events of importance they're given) and Zidane (his changes are sorta influenced by the other cast members so it's a chain reaction of feeling forced).

Vivi's really the only one that seems kinda natural and that's because he kinda gets his own importance on an island and isn't interacting with other cast members as much imo. So the good writing is there it's just maybe a bit too ambitious-- maybe cut the playables down to FFVIII's level and it'd be fine!

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Wait you're telling me that Freya "Falls off the face of the Earth after Disc 1" Crescent and Amarant "Does literally nothing ever" Coral are forced characters?

I'm not even going to dignify googling them to see if I remembered their last names correctly.

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You did

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Honestly I feel like post Disc 1 everyone falls off the face of the Earth aside from Zidane, Vivi, at more of a stretch Garnet, and Kuja. It's not a Freya specific thing. It's also why I have no particular problem with Amarant not doing much cause he's just the rest of the cast with less of an elaborate introduction sequence.

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Quina so irrelevant that FFD didn't even mention them.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

Quina so excellent that FFD didn't need to mention them.

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TBQH I think most of the party members in most FF games are forced to varying degrees. There's always like 3 party members the plot revolves around and the rest are window dressing. It's most notable in 9 but I even feel this way about 7 and 10.

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7 does a good job in that it rotates the party members it's revolving around so while I'd agree with you in the general idea that it revolves around a small subset of the cast, that subset is constantly changing.

10 I... just don't really agree in general. Yes the plot is Yuna/Tidus centric but everyone but Kimahri is generally contributing in scenes in their distinct ways so they feel like they're part of the plot-- also they all (including Kimahri) have their own little subplots thrown in at varying points.

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And it's not like FF8 doesn't have the same problem. Quistis does nothing notable after Disc 1, which is really a shame because she ends on her worst moment. Irvine just kinda hangs around for whatever reason after the failed assassination, except for when he brings up the big twist. Even Zell and Selphie kinda fall off after the start of disc 3.
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Yeah, I think it's more how you integrate them more than necessarily how "relevant" to the plot they are. The thing that helps FFX is that the party almost never splits up, so it makes it difficult for a character to just fade into the background and seem like they don't exist.

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And yeah, I'd say that's true for pretty much every FF game except for 5 and 15, and 15 is helped by the other guys getting their own DLC episodes. It's a recurring problem with the series.
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I'd disagree on that being a problem with most FF games. Do not agree with it being a thing in FFVIII-- though it helps that the cast is small there. Quistis and Irvine are less relevant in Disc 2 and on but I still remember things they contribute which I can't say for a lot of IX characters.

Really I'd only say VI, IX, and XII have that problem. And it's a bit more forgivable with VI because the cast is so bloated. IV gets a pass because the irrelevant characters are forced out of the party.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, I think it's more how you integrate them more than necessarily how "relevant" to the plot they are. The thing that helps FFX is that the party almost never splits up, so it makes it difficult for a character to just fade into the background and seem like they don't exist.

Yeah X does a good job at building its ensemble, just not really at using them. Lulu, Wakka, and Khimari are always around and talking but they could fuck off entirely and not change much.

I think most games in the series don't pass the ensemble test to me.

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I kinda agree with Lulu being completely unnecessary to the actual plot but I don't think that's the same thing as feeling tacked on. Like she's always there and I remember things she says and does and she has a consistent character and for me that's enough. Not everyone has to be equally important-- like would you say C-3P0 is a tacked on character in Star Wars just because he's less important than Han Solo or Luke Skywalker? I wouldn't.

Disagree on Wakka though. Feel like Wakka is necessary to give more gravitas to Yevon's betrayal being a thing and giving you more insight into the hatreds and such baked into the society. Like I don't think the plot is the same at all without Wakka.

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Lulu basically acts as your Spira tour guide and explains a lot of the customs and the locations for Tidus and the player, so she plays her part well in that regard.

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Yeah I guess that's true. It's easy to forget what she does because it just feels like infodumping but when you mention it no one else is really suited for that, and someone needs to since Tidus (and the player) is a foreigner.

I guess you could relegate her role to random assorted NPCs but that would feel awkward and wouldn't have as much character as Lulu doing it.

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Drakeryn posted...

Honestly, I never got the impression that Squall was socially insecure in the way you're talking about. He had various insecurities (see: his Ellone complex) but not "I am shy at parties" - he just didn't like parties and liked being alone.

Squall doesn't like being alone, though. He prefers being alone only because of his abandonment issues. That's why he keeps people at a distance throughout the game -- everyone, except of course, Rinoa. His interactions with her are very different than his interactions with pretty much everyone else in the game. Even during the dance scene, we almost see a smile on his face. He actually enjoyed himself, and then gets let down when Rinoa leaves. Then later, we see him actually shake hands with her. That's the first sign that he likes her (even if he doesn't quite realize it yet)

People see it as "Man that'd be so annoying!" but that'd only be true if Squall really just wanted to be left alone. He doesn't. He only thinks he'd rather be alone. Because the risk of losing people SCARES him. He pretty much says so verbatim in the game. Rinoa helps him grow out of that, and it all starts with that dance scene. Where she comes up to him, is direct with him (as opposed to Quistis trying the indirect approach and hoping he makes a move first) and helps him out of his comfort zone where he's alone and safe vs with someone and actually happy. It's easy to forget Squall is 17! He's not emotionally mature enough to understand his feelings or what he really wants.

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It's easy to psychoanalyze Squall and come to that conclusion, but that's not the only explanation that fits-- particularly early game at the time we're at the party. Like you need to realize, that even if you're right in your Squall character analysis, that we don't have all the information you do when you're delving into him like that for most of the game-- what you're doing is kind of hindsight being 50/50 more than what the plot feels like in the moment.

Like I agree completely that Squall does not come off as socially insecure at any point in the way you're talking about. He is antisocial but he's assertive, confident, and strong in spite of it-- it's not done in an awkward way that would be stricken entirely by virtue of a girl giving him some attention. Does that mean the game didn't intend the reading you have? Not really saying that-- but that's not really the natural way to interpret Squall's character as the game unfolds either.

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Yeah, I think Squall at the beginning genuinely likes being alone. Obviously that's a result of his abandonment issues and he comes to question it over the course of the game; but at the start, he's secure in his way of thinking. (At least I think he doesn't start showing self-doubt until significantly later?) Endgame Squall is a very different person but it doesn't mean early game Squall didn't really want solitude, they just want different things.

Also it's pretty patronizing to suggest he doesn't know what he wants just because he's a teenager! Maybe he doesn't have his whole life sorted out but even a 3-year-old can say "Leave me alone" because they want to be left alone.

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It's not ever really a matter of whether or not Squall enjoys being alone. He chooses to be alone in what he considers to be a matter of necessity. He acts aloof to push people away in order to protect himself, not because he hates people.

Squall is "secure" in his thinking in Disc 1, but it's not necessarily because he really believes what he says. He's saying and thinking what he thinks he needs to believe in order to survive. He's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince everyone else. It's once he starts realizing those presuppositions are flawed that he begins second guessing all of that stuff.

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Ultimately I don't think it's important whether Squall genuinely wants to be alone in Disc 1 and evolves into not, or it's just a defense mechanism all the time that he's only deluded himself into believing, when judging the quality of the writing on a first playthrough.

The point is either interpretation of Squall's character is valid and frankly at that point in Disc 1 on a first time playthrough you've got more vibe on the table that it's the former. Further when you have the option for the jerky dialogue options reaffirming that, that makes things worse.

I actually agree with Drak's interp of the character though just because it feels more realistic. Like you can want to be alone, and genuinely want that, for reasons that aren't hating everyone, but that doesn't mean it's not a 'real' feeling in the moment either. It just means you realized you were wrong, eventually.

They're kinda just different versions of saying the same thing, though. It's just that the character development feels a bit more rough around the edges if you go with the Drak way since the game doesn't spell out the change over time too well over his monologues and such. If you assume his way of thinking changed less that's less necessary.

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Well, there's one thing that's for sure that Squall enjoys in the early part of the game

Dancing with Rinoa

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You know what game has a collection of playable characters that are all awesome and play important roles in the story?

FFXIII

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Now I'll just say for the record I've been forced to dance by women before while not wanting to, ended up enjoying it, and did not fall for or even have interest in the women in question.

I'm not saying I'm the same as Squall I'm just saying you can enjoy things you don't want to do for reasons other than being in love with the person or whatever. The whole romanticized "it was love at first sight!" take I don't know.

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Lopen posted...

Now I'll just say for the record I've been forced to dance by women before while not wanting to, ended up enjoying it, and did not fall for or even have interest in the women in question.

I'm not saying I'm the same as Squall I'm just saying you can enjoy things you don't want to do for reasons other than being in love with the person or whatever. The whole romanticized "it was love at first sight!" take I don't know.

Eh, I'd never call it love at first sight, but there was definitely a level of fascination. Maybe even infatuation, but I don't know that I'd go that far yet, even though Squall demonstrates he gets infatuated easily.

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LeonhartFour posted...

it really shouldn't make a lot of their bonding moments optional but the game does plenty to show you ahead of time that Squall has feelings for Rinoa even if he won't admit it to anyone, including himself

I don't think it does a very good job of that at all, actually. Until he suddenly decides he's in love with her when she's in the coma, he at best seems to think of her no different that the rest of the party/his friends. He holds himself back but does obviously care about them. The closest it comes is during the Garden Battle when she's hanging off the side and no one can reach her. He gets extremely stressed out because he wants to save her, but also has an important duty to Balamb to lead the battle but I never took that part to be about how he would react about her in particular. It would have been the same if it had been Zell, Sephie, Quistis, etc. hanging on there.

The game shows he cares, it just doesn't successfully show he cares about her romantically until the scene he comes out and says it. Or at least that's how the game has always seemed to me.

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Squall absolutely treats and views Rinoa differently from everyone else, even if it's not blatantly overt.

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Info-dumping a major plot device 20 hours in advance and never incorporating it into the story between then and it's reveal isn't foreshadowing. It's literally just spelling it out without it having any real consequences until the plot needs it because they clearly hadn't thought how they would make it work before writing the scene in the first place.
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It does incorporate it into the story. It explains why Irvine "chokes" on the mission. There's no reason to send someone with a reputation for choking on a mission like that unless you were trying to fail the mission on purpose.

And there's the lingering question of, "Why is Balamb Garden the only place to use GFs, when they're obviously super powerful and beneficial?"

As well as Ellone's role in the present. She very clearly knows who they are despite the fact that none of them remember her. You meet her twice early on and she demonstrates an intimate familiarity with them, but none of them recognize her. Plus, there's the fact that she's using them for the Laguna stuff in the first place.

Plus, it fits with FFVIII's theme of fate, where they all end up back together despite the fact that they all almost completely forgot about their past relationships.

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I don't recall any indication that the mission is supposed to fail. Just because Cid was her husband doesn't mean they weren't legitimately trying to stop her at that point.

Irvine sure as shit doesn't have a reputation for choking. Quite to the contrary, they do nothing but hype him up as the greatest marksman they have. The only thing I could even find to support that is his "Scan" description, and freaking lul if that's what you're basing it on.

The fact that Irvine remembers really makes the whole thing so much stupider than it is. The fact that he nevers mentions anything when given the task of assassinating his adoptive mother is fucking baffling.

Leonhart4 posted...

And there's the lingering question of, "Why is Balamb Garden the only place to use GFs, when they're obviously super powerful and beneficial?"

And yet you literally made the point yourself about how that was explicitly answered at the very beginning of the game in no uncertain terms.

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kevwaffles posted...

I don't recall any indication that the mission is supposed to fail.

exactly

so why did Irvine choke? because he remembers who Edea is

kevwaffles posted...

The fact that Irvine remembers really makes the whole thing so much stupider than it is. The fact that he nevers mentions anything when given the task of assassinating his adoptive mother is baffling.

They don't learn Edea's name until they've already begun the mission, so at that point, it's a bit late for Irvine to back out.

kevwaffles posted...

And yet you literally made the point yourself about how that was explicitly answered at the very beginning of the game in no uncertain terms.

Yes, but it's couched in speculation and isn't ever confirmed until that moment. It's a possible side effect (and Garden and SeeD are skeptical about it; heck, even when it's brought up, Quistis mentions that it's just a nasty rumor), but it's not stated to be a definite. S

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LeonhartFour posted...

exactly

so why did Irvine choke? because he remembers who Edea is

Okay, your point definitely makes more sense that way. Still, I'll have to take your word on it that they never said Edea's name up until that point. I certainly don't remember her identity (as Edea) being withheld that long, but maybe I just knew it from cards or something.

LeonhartFour posted...

They don't learn Edea's name until they've already begun the mission, so at that point, it's a bit late for Irvine to back out.

I still think a person who wasn't jaded enough to be able to assassinate their own mother without any qualms would still bring it up at that point. He's putting his childhood friends in danger if he can't hold up his end, after all.

LeonhartFour posted...

Yes, but it's couched in speculation and isn't ever confirmed until that moment. It's a possible side effect (and Garden and SeeD are skeptical about it; heck, even when it's brought up, Quistis mentions that it's just a nasty rumor), but it's not stated to be a definite.

C'mon, bringing up a detail like that and having someone dismiss it out of hand as a rumor in a story means it's true beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's on the level of having a cop say he's two days away from retirement right before dying.

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kevwaffles posted...

Still, I'll have to take your word on it that they never said Edea's name up until that point. I certainly don't remember her identity (as Edea) being withheld that long

There's a point where Caraway calls her "Edea" and Squall registers it as the first time having heard her name.

kevwaffles posted...

C'mon, bringing up a detail like that and having someone dismiss it out of hand as a rumor in a story means it's true beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's on the level of having a cop say he's two days away from retirement right before dying.

well yes in a story they don't mention that detail for no reason

it doesn't mean the characters believe it though

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Did they ever say that Cid picked Irvine? I recall him just being Martine's pick, and he definitely wanted Edea dead.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

Did they ever say that Cid picked Irvine? I recall him just being Martine's pick, and he definitely wanted Edea dead.

No, Martine passed the buck at the last minute to Squall and company, and sent Irvine along since they didn't have a sniper. It was originally supposed to be Martine's mission from NORG.

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In fairness to Irvine, the people he grew up with don't remember him. Would you be quick to be like "Hey guys, remember that time we grew up together, that sure was fun! Oh and our adoptive mother is the sorceress. Pretty cool, right?"

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FF8's romance is weird but it's the least weird part of that game's narrative. The actual plot is a frankenstein mess. An entertaining one, but still.

EDIT: Oh oops was replying the end of the last page discussion. Point still stands!

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@LeonhartFour will and should correct me if Im wrong, but a friend of mine who usually knows more than I do about anything FF-related told me FF8 suffered from bad localization and a lot of nuance they would have helped was lost in translation. Is that accurate?

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trdl23 posted...

@LeonhartFour will and should correct me if Im wrong, but a friend of mine who usually knows more than I do about anything FF-related told me FF8 suffered from bad localization and a lot of nuance they would have helped was lost in translation. Is that accurate?

Well, in a couple of places, yes. The biggest one is Edea's speech at the end of Disc 1, where the localization team somehow failed to recognize that she used a title drop and didn't properly translate it as such.

Overall, I think the localization is solid, but @dowolf would be the guy to ask in-depth questions about such matters.

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The original FF7 localization is definitely much worse than FF8's.
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FF7's goofy localization was part of its charm.
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They both came out before people really thought translating was something that actually mattered.


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FF8's localization seemed amazing after playing FFT.

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Yeah, VIII's localization is solid in the sense that there aren't moments in the script that are just complete nonsense like VII and T, but at the same time, that is part of their nostalgic charm. VIII's script is straightforward and effective, but it's hardly charming.

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Well it's "generational siblings" weren't very good either

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The Lunar Cry is still one of the funniest events in any RPG ever

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