Board 8 > Best All-Purpose Wrestling Topic of the Decade, Part 492

(+) Yeah! (+)

Panthera posted...

As dumb as Rollins/Fiend and the whole Rusev/Lana thing were/are I don't think anything in 2019 wrestling (which granted I have not followed much of) annoys me as much as AEW's relentless dedication to killing any semblance of suspension of disbelief by having their referees be the most worthlessly impotent characters in the history of fiction

There's always one of them

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I really noticed them to be any worse than other wrestling companies refs.

Unless stuff is happening on the PPVs

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There was a match where someone (Omega IIRC) literally shoved the ref mid-match for no reason. There was a recent match where Orange Cassidy climbed into the ring and had a twenty second staredown with Moxley for no reason while the ref just kind of sadly waved at him before giving up, well aware of his own uselessness. Tag matches where guys run into the ring whenever they feel like and you can't even pretend it's because they use unconventional rules because the other team doesn't do it *and* the commentators talk about how the ref needs to do something about it *and* the ref will yell at them about it...before just giving up. People shit on Rollins/Fiend in the Cell (for good reason) for how the finish undermines the entire concept of a Cell match, but having the referees be totally powerless to enforce the rules undermines the entire concept of any match.

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I'm surprised AEW did so well, that wasn't an especially good episode for them.

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Honestly the only super bad AEW ref moment was the first dynamite when Mox just waltzed in and started brawling with Omega during the 6 man tag.

Otherwise it's just been bog standard pro wrestling bad ref shit imo.

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Panthera posted...

having the referees be totally powerless to enforce the rules undermines the entire concept of any match.

That's like the entire character arc of almost every wrestling ref ever though.

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I've been as harsh an AEW critic as anyone here but if you honestly think anything about them is worse than the Fiend or Rusev/Lana I don't know what to tell you.

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FFDragon posted...

That's like the entire character arc of almost every wrestling ref ever though.

No? Pro wrestling refs are insanely fragile, easily fooled and have zero attention span, but they usually manage to react to things that happen directly in front of them. Why would ref bumps and distractions even exist if it was totally normal for refs to just ignore everything anyway? Those things happen because wrestling companies usually try to keep up the illusion of their matches being real in-universe.

NBIceman posted...

I've been as harsh an AEW critic as anyone here but if you honestly think anything about them is worse than the Fiend or Rusev/Lana I don't know what to tell you.

Rusev/Lana/Lashley is just a stupid storyline. Not trying to make your matches look like they're legit even from a kayfabe standpoint actively undermines the entire concept of being invested in the show.

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Just a stupid storyline is a horribly reductive way to state what Rusev/Lashley/Lana is

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No, it really isn't. It's an individual storyline. No single, mostly self-contained story can ever be *that* bad even if it's the worst story ever (and as bad as this one is, I've seen worse in wrestling). The rest of the show isn't affected by it, whereas if the refs are portrayed as having no power, it actively hurts every other match on the show where we're supposed to buy into the idea that they do.

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The refs are portrayed as having all the power. They have the leeway not to call for a disqualification if they so desire.

If you want to say it's stupid that they never do, I'll agree. But at least get what you're complaining about correct.

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I mean, if that's the mindset pro wrestling is supposed to require, then it's just an inherently stupid medium. If your story supposedly has rules but also establishes "we can ignore any rules at any time with no warning or explanation given", you don't have rules and you don't have a coherent story.

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WWF at its hottest featured basically no rules at all in both the 80s and 90s.


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I side more with Panthera here.

I think AEW has the notion that ref bumps and ref distractions are soooo cliche

But they just do the things people do after the ref is down anyway
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So you're saying Cornette was right when calling AEW "video game wrestling?"


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It definitely is nowhere near as bad as Rollins vs Fiend though
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Jakyl25 posted...

I side more with Panthera here.

I think AEW has the notion that ref bumps and ref distractions are soooo cliche

But they just do the things people do after the ref is down anyway

I don't think that is necessarily siding with Panthera, though.

They're not "ignoring the rules at any time with no warning or explanation." They've pounded it into everyone's heads on commentary that the ref has full discretion.

Again, if the argument is that it's stupid, there is no argument. I think we all agree on that. I just think it stops far short of ruining the principal concept of pro wrestling.

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Panthera posted...

it's just an inherently stupid medium

I mean, duh? It is, and always will be, Carny shit at it's core.

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It's possible my perspective is influenced by the fact that I've been steadily losing interest in wrestling anyway for a while. Dumb stories are less annoying to me because I have lower expectations for wrestling as a whole at this point due to not caring about it as much anymore (and I don't actually follow super closely so I don't end up sitting through every shit segment anyway). Meanwhile things that make it harder to buy into pro wrestling play into my feelings that maybe I just don't like the medium itself. So a bigger wrestling fan is willing to let fundamental stuff like the rules slide because they're still invested in the genre but individual stories piss them off for producing shitty segments, while I'm less bothered by shit segments since I have lower expectations but the fundamental stuff pushes me away from the medium as a whole and I'm not willing to engage in the suspension of disbelief that pro wrestling requires.

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Panthera posted...

It's possible my perspective is influenced by the fact that I've been steadily losing interest in wrestling anyway for a while. Dumb stories are less annoying to me because I have lower expectations for wrestling as a whole at this point due to not caring about it as much anymore (and I don't actually follow super closely so I don't end up sitting through every shit segment anyway). Meanwhile things that make it harder to buy into pro wrestling play into my feelings that maybe I just don't like the medium itself. So a bigger wrestling fan is willing to let fundamental stuff like the rules slide because they're still invested in the genre but individual stories piss them off for producing shitty segments, while I'm less bothered by shit segments since I have lower expectations but the fundamental stuff pushes me away from the medium as a whole and I'm not willing to engage in the suspension of disbelief that pro wrestling requires.

That makes sense, yeah.

I think I'd still be inclined to argue that no matter how much something like AEW reffing breaks suspension of disbelief, the Fiend still does it worse, but I do get where you're coming from.

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As for the actual top contenders for the award, I have to give it to Rollins vs Fiend

The Lashley/Rusev/Lana stuff is nothing new, just the execution is awful and its not what the audience wants even if it was done well.

Fiend vs Rollins invented ways to be bad
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I just wish I knew what Vince wants to break up Rusev and Lana so much that he's done it twice now. Then again, everything Rusev turned to gold, Vince sold for shit, so what do I know?

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"Rusev is just too damn ugly for Lana. Now excuse me while I pair up Mandy and Otis."

Vince is the worst shipper.

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TheRock1525 posted...

I'm surprised AEW did so well, that wasn't an especially good episode for them.

But that's not how ratings work
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I liked that "top ref" Aubrey Edwards was a huge stickler for the tag rules this week continually admonishing Cody and Pentagon over the tag rope.

Meanwhile that damn Rick Knox cant be bothered to enforce any rules at all

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Also for Pantheras viewing pleasure some fine wwe reffing on display:

https://twitter.com/Maffewgregg/status/1214539692529668096?s=19

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Jakyl25 posted...

As for the actual top contenders for the award, I have to give it to Rollins vs Fiend

The Lashley/Rusev/Lana stuff is nothing new, just the execution is awful and its not what the audience wants even if it was done well.

Fiend vs Rollins invented ways to be bad

All of this. Not to mention that Rusev's angle could win this year too.

Rollins vs Fiend in the Cell was a disaster for so many reasons. Cut the legs out from under Rollins (after they spent all year bringing him up), made Wyatt look stupidly powerful, the use of a cartoon mallet, the no contest, and of course the red lighting.

On a side note, looking again at Wrestlecrap's nominees for 2019's Worst award, I'm amazed Impact didn't get nominated for anything; that has to be a first.

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ZeroSignal620 posted...

On a side note, looking again at Wrestlecrap's nominees for 2019's Worst award, I'm amazed Impact didn't get nominated for anything; that has to be a first.

Their imprint is smaller than before and like....Impact has been a good show and has for once not had any weird behind the stage issues outside their parent company literally buying a TV network to save their show

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I should mention here that it's been decided I'll host a "of the Decade" awards after Ed wraps up "of the year"

with that in mind, i'm gonna drop some match of the decade suggestions in here as i get to them; and here's a short one (the whole video is just over 6 minutes)

Daisuke Ikeda vs Takeshi Ono, 26th September 2010 - Fu10
https://youtu.be/5soQKGwT3bY

this is about as violent a match as you're likely to see. it's the essence of shibata/ishii but even further condensed. also shot in a really unique way that i find very compelling to watch

some other matches i'll be going through:
every tana/okada match
shibata/ishii
shibata/okada
okada/omega
ibushi/nakamura

shingo/mochizuki

zayn/neville
zayn/cesaro

generico/steen final battle

punk vs cena
lesnar vs cena
punk vs lesnar
bryan vs cena
cena vs rollins vs lesnar

those were the first ones to come to mind so let me know some more obvious ones!

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Eddv posted...

Their imprint is smaller than before and like....Impact has been a good show and has for once not had any weird behind the stage issues outside their parent company literally buying a TV network to save their show

From what I've read and seen, I'll agree with that.

Two notable things I was surprised not to see nominated for said award...
1) They should've just merged both Saudi ppvs for one nominee. Super Showdown II was just as bad as Crown Jewel II.
2) The Wild Card rule that Vince implemented out of nowhere

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Which Lesnar/Cena is that?

Extreme Rules the squash or the rematch after the squash?

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Also while I know Punk/Cena is their MitB match their draw is one of my favorite matches if the decade too

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The one I love is Extreme Rules, although the squash is a high point of the decade too. Just... not match of the decade

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I'll put in a plug for Tanahashi/Suzuki from KOPW 2012, which alternates with Okada/Omega IV for my favorite match of all time depending on the day.

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I agree on that I think though it's been forever.

Here are the matches we gave MOTY to:

2018: Kenny Omega vs Kazuchika Okada at Dominion
2017: Kazuchika Okada vs Kenny Omega at Wrestle Kingdom
2016: The Miz vs Dolph Ziggler at TLC
2015: Grave Consequences (Mil Muertes vs Fenix)
2014: Brock Lesnar vs John Cena (Summerslam)
2013: Daniel Bryan vs John Cena (Summerslam)
2012: Brock Lesnar vs John Cena (Extreme Rules)

I also wanna call attention to:
Styles vs Daniels from 2012
Roode vs Aries II
Fenix vs Omega
Lucha Bros vs Bucks Ladder
Lucha Bros vs Bucks vs Sydal/Ricochet
Miyahara vs Okabayashi
Perro Aguayo vs Cibernetico apuestas
La Sombra and Volador vs Ultimo Guerrero and Atlantis
Ultimo Guerrero vs Atlantis
Psycho Clown vs Dr Wagner Jr Apuestas
Dr Wagner vs Blue Demon Jr Apuestas

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CybrMonkey posted...

I'll put in a plug for Tanahashi/Suzuki from KOPW 2012, which alternates with Okada/Omega IV for my favorite match of all time depending on the day.

so, this is probably the next njpw match i would have expected anyone to mention.... i just think it's a notch lower than the ones i mentioned - and i watched it very recently! i actually think i prefer aj/suzuki

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I also hesitate to call them matches but

The Final Deletion
Delete or Decay
The Great War trilogy probably deserve discussion in a decade awards show

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Honestly like....I want to revisit a lot of these but I think Wagner vs Psycho Clown is still gonna be my favorite.

Not only a great brutally violent match with a HUGE match atmosphere but I would wager the most historically significant match of the decade as its basically the match that saved AAA.

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Eddv posted...

Honestly like....I want to revisit a lot of these but I think Wagner vs Psycho Clown is still gonna be my favorite.

Not only a great brutally violent match with a HUGE match atmosphere but I would wager the most historically significant match of the decade as its basically the match that saved AAA.

oh i definitely want to throw this in as well as some more top lucha stuff but i'm definitely not the one to be doing selection for that

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Yeah and I really don't have a super strong CMLL history and really only started watching AAA in 2014 when Alberto and Mistico returned.

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Who would you say was the best WWE champ this past decade? The list below...

Sheamus (3x)
Cena (8x)
Batista
Orton (4x)
Miz
Punk (x2)
Mysterio
Del Rio (2x)
Rock
Bryan (4x)
Lesnar (2x)
Rollins (2x)
Reigns (3x)
HHH
Ambrose
Styles (2x)
Wyatt
Mahal
Kofi

World Heavyweight Champions
Taker
Jericho
Swagger
Mysterio
Kane
Edge (2x)
Ziggler (2x)
Christian (2x)
Orton (3x)
Henry
Big Show (2x)
Bryan
Sheamus
Del Rio (2x)
Cena

Universal
Balor
Owens
Goldberg
Lesnar (3x)
Reigns
Rollins (2x)
Wyatt

Universal is Lesnar without question.

WHC is harder cause no one in said group had a reign worth talking about; Kane's long run gave us dull matches and Sheamus wrestled Del Rio forever, for example.

WWE title, I narrowed down to Cena, Punk, Lesnar, and Styles.

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Universal: Lesnar.

WWE: Cena. There is no other answer

WHC: I wanna say Christian just because the feud with Orton was the only good WHC feud.


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Punk and Styles are the only answers.

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Universal: Lesnar by default
WWE: Styles, both of his reigns are memorable. Most of Cena's reigns were too short, Lesnar only really had his 2014 reign, and Punk's 2012 reign was undermined by playing second fiddle to Cena and Rock.
WHC: Bryan, I guess since it led to to Bryan's Yes movement.
Combined: Lesnar

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I liked Owens better just cause of his friendship with Jericho.

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The rest of the titles were easy to determine the decade's best.

IC: Miz
US: Either Ambrose or Rusev
Tag: New Day. If you wanna split it up to brand titles, then New Day for Raw and Usos for SD
Women's: Probably Charlotte
Cruiserweight: Neville

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Shouldnt it be Cena for US?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Shouldnt it be Cena for US?

Completely forgot. You're right.

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Five hunnid

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