Current Events > Is pirating video games "stealing"?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nah. It's illegal, but it does not inherently deprive anyone of anything. You'd need to be able to prove intent to buy it to claim that it's equal to theft.

https://youtu.be/TRTkCHE1sS4

Aaantlion posted...

In other words: "If I steal a car and then return it, I haven't committed a crime." The cops disagree, though.

More like "If I leave a car completely untouched and make an exact copy of it for my own personal use, I haven't committed a crime".

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Yikes.
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Leanaunfurled posted...

Depends on context, I think. If it's an old-ass game that you otherwise can't play for whatever variety of reasons, it isn't. If it's a newer game you can easily obtain and you're sure you'd like it but you pirate it anyway, it is stealing.

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Pirating is conceptually similar to stealing, but it's not the same thing. The biggest misconception is the belief is 1 pirated game == 1 lost sale. While this holds up for stealing physical items, this couldn't be further from the truth in the digital space (unless we enter the blockchain world where digital assets exist in finite quantities). People pirate games they were iffy on buying in the first place and treat it like demoing the game. In fact, pirates tend to buy games afterwards to support their developers. Another driver of pirating is the availability of the game. When games are available and priced affordably, like on Steam Storefront, people will buy them. When they're out of reach, people will resort to pirating to play them.
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It's not your property

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Sad_Face posted...

While this holds up for stealing physical items

No it doesn't. If I shoplift a sandwich out of a supermarket there's no guarantee that it would have sold otherwise. It's a bit more obvious with perishables but even when I worked at a retail job we had dumpsters of shit we threw out because nobody bought them and I wasn't allowed to take them even as an employee. Things like toys, CDs, shitty electronics like walkmans fuck I'm old

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Sad_Face posted...

While this holds up for stealing physical items

No it doesn't. If I shoplift a sandwich out of a supermarket there's no guarantee that it would have sold otherwise. It's a bit more obvious with perishables but even when I worked at a retail job we had dumpsters of shit we threw out because nobody bought them and I wasn't allowed to take them even as an employee. Things like toys, CDs, shitty electronics like walkmans fuck I'm old

I sit corrected then. Good point.
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*makes topic*
*too lazy to read discussion*

What have I done? ._.
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Garioshi posted...

Aaantlion posted...

In other words: "If I steal a car and then return it, I haven't committed a crime." The cops disagree, though.

More like "If I leave a car completely untouched and make an exact copy of it for my own personal use, I haven't committed a crime".

This.

Piracy is copying. Not stealing.

It's a simple fact that you stole it. You know you stole it. You just dont give a damn.

I haven't seriously chimed in but I really see no difference if I download a game, movie etc and delete it when I'm done vs just borrowing it from the library for free and then returning it once I'm finished.

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bnui posted...

It's a simple fact that you stole it. You know you stole it. You just dont give a damn.

When a game has no monetary value to a publisher (not currently being on sale), its as much theft as keeping a discarded piece of trash you find on the ground that you can still make use of.

So I found a pair of headphones on the bus that somebody had left behind on an empty seat. they were missing the rubber bud that goes into your ears. So I took them and replaced the missing bud with my own that happened to fit. You know they would have just been thrown away if someone else found them. They had been abandoned after all.
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YellowMustard69 posted...

This.

Piracy is copying. Not stealing.

lol no. Not that. That is a very fallacious analogy. It's very different to replicate physical property than it is to replicate intellectual property. Replicating physical property means you already have the materials to do it. What you do and how you shape what resources you have takes little to no discretion since they already belong to you. When you build a car from scratch, it is assumed you procured the materials to do so legally. You paid for it one way or another.

Not to mention there is a lot of gray area in the legality of the matter of making your own car. You guys are being disingenuous so you can justify your actions. Just own up to it. It's illegal no matter how you cut it. People do illegal shit all the time and don't harm anyone.

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piracy's pretty immoral if you're literally only doing it because you believe you're above the concept of paying

Bass_X0 posted...

When a game has no monetary value to a publisher (not currently being on sale), its as much theft as keeping a discarded piece of trash you find on the ground that you can still make use of.

So I found a pair of headphones on the bus that somebody had left behind on an empty seat. they were missing the rubber bud that goes into your ears. So I took them and replaced the missing bud with my own that happened to fit. You know they would have just been thrown away if someone else found them. They had been abandoned after all.

What if those headphones were contained in a package that literally has a notice that says Do not steal this product. You may be subject to prosecution... or wording like that? Or how about if there is no package or warning, but the headphones were left in someones yard?

I feel like we are creating all these hypothetical scenarios to justify whatever our desired outcome is. Wouldnt it be easier to just acknowledge that, yes, you are taking something that isnt yours, but you want it and hopefully it doesnt cause anyone problems?
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Lorenzo_2003 posted... I feel like we are creating all these hypothetical scenarios to justify whatever our desired outcome is. Wouldnt it be easier to just acknowledge that, yes, you are taking something that isnt yours, but you want it and hopefully it doesnt cause anyone problems?
That's precisely how I feel. We do it all the time in other parts of our life. Sometimes it's doubleparking somewhere because there's nowhere else to park and the thing you need to do won't take very long. It can be changing lanes over a double solid line because the next exit is too far off and it won't endanger anyone. Drinking before the legal age because it's legal elsewhere etc

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I find it weird a lot of people's argument is just "it's illegal". That entirely depends on where you live because laws are arbitrary and not a source of right and wrong. A very significant percentage of humanity lives in countries where software piracy isn't a crime (or at least has no actual enforcement).

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Is it stealing if I'm downloading a game that will never see an official english release as it came out like a decade ago and Capcom doesn't want to localize it? Because fuck that I want to play Ace Attorney Investigations 2 and if Capcom doesn't want my money I'll just pirate it.
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@SailorGoon posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

"Losing something" is a critical component of "taking something"

Not really. Look at grave robbers. Those dead people don't give a shit if they're losing anything. The point is that what they take doesn't belong to them. Tangibility is irrelevant. You now possess something that does not belong to you.

It's like @HellRatUFO says, own up to it. The more mental backflips you try to crank out to justify it, the more guilty you look.

Bringing up corpses as if dead people cant have possessions is a huge mental backflip. Your point is invalid.
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ssjevot posted...

I find it weird a lot of people's argument is just "it's illegal". That entirely depends on where you live because laws are arbitrary and not a source of right and wrong. A very significant percentage of humanity lives in countries where software piracy isn't a crime (or at least has no actual enforcement).

Well yeah. If you choose to water it down like that it is. The question of theft also brings up the question of ownership. Theft is the action of taking something that does not belong to you whether you do so knowingly or not. You are free to argue the semantics of whether or not you are "taking" something, but there's still question of whether the newly acquired possession belongs to you. Which is why legality is often cited.

I'm curious as to which countries allow you to legally own something without purchasing it?

Also, Whether it's enforced or not doesn't change the fact of whether or not said property actually belongs to you btw.

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Rika_Furude posted...

Bringing up corpses as if dead people cant have possessions is a huge mental backflip. Your point is invalid.

It's obvious you're going to ignore anything anyone itt says unless it confirms your bias.

You do not legally own something you illegally download. You are not entitled to whatever it is you desire. There is no invalidating that hard as you may try.

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SailorGoon posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

Bringing up corpses as if dead people cant have possessions is a huge mental backflip. Your point is invalid.

It's obvious your going to ignore anything anyone itt says unless it confirms your bias.

You do not legally own something you illegally download. You are not entitled to whatever it is you desire. There is no invalidating that hard as you may try.

Im in this topic to have a discussion. You havnt brought up any good points whatsoever. The discussion we are having is "is piracy theft". Not "is piracy legal". Not "is piracy moral".
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Pretty funny how all the thieves have to resort to dumb analogies lol

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Rika_Furude posted...

Im in this topic to have a discussion. You havnt brought up any good points whatsoever. The discussion we are having is "is piracy theft". Not "is piracy legal". Not "is piracy moral".

The legality is what makes it theft

ledbowman posted...

It's not your property

This is the reality of the situation. It is not not your property. You are in possession of something that is not yours. The only people the possess property that is not theirs and do so knowingly are thieves.

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But but out of print. it like i find in dumpster

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SailorGoon posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

Im in this topic to have a discussion. You havnt brought up any good points whatsoever. The discussion we are having is "is piracy theft". Not "is piracy legal". Not "is piracy moral".

The legality is what makes it theft

ledbowman posted...

It's not your property

This is the reality of the situation. It is not not your property. You are in possession of something that is not yours. The only people the possess property that is not theirs and do so knowingly are thieves.

The legal side of things is why its not theft. Its piracy. The data on your computer is not the property of anyone but yourself.
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Yes, but if it's not available within the last 2 generations of home consoles, has no prospect of getting ported any time soon and/or is 30+ years old, it literally does not matter. Sega made their money on Phantasy Star 1, you can support that release by buying the Switch port (like I did) - especially since it's arguably the definitive version of the game - but it doesn't matter if you download it instead or if you support that new release. Sega have made their money on that game over the span of 30 years.

In a similar vein, sometimes you wanna play something like Dragon Quest V on DS - the only way you're gonna do that is by paying out the ass for a used cart or by downloading an illegal copy of a game that Square Enix doesn't sell or make money on any more. Call it illegal or unethical, but given that the companies involved aren't making a profit on it any more, who cares if you pay collector prices or if you download a packet of data that contains the game? Neither Nintendo or Square Enix are seeing that money. It doesn't fucking matter.
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But you can and no one can stop you so. If you let thieves steal then youre enabling them. Might as well be an accessory.
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It's not even a big deal to torrent earthworm jim. I just wouldn't delude myself into thinking i'm not taking someone else's property because they won't sell it to me

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Most of the yesses have fullsets in their hard drives

SailorGoon posted...

Well yeah. If you choose to water it down like that it is. The question of theft also brings up the question of ownership. Theft is the action of taking something that does not belong to you whether you do so knowingly or not. You are free to argue the semantics of whether or not you are "taking" something, but there's still question of whether the newly acquired possession belongs to you. Which is why legality is often cited.

I'm curious as to which countries allow you to legally own something without purchasing it?

Also, Whether it's enforced or not doesn't change the fact of whether or not said property actually belongs to you btw.

You can pirate basically any software in China, India, and a number of other countries and there is no punishment. Pirated software is openly distributed and even used as a selling point by many people there (buy this computer, I preloaded it with all Microsoft software, tons of games, etc.) selling hardware. But there is literally no country that treats piracy and theft the same, so that's a really weird argument to take to begin with.

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Rika_Furude posted...

The legal side of things is why its not theft. Its piracy. The data on your computer is not the property of anyone but yourself.

It's called intellectual property. Just because you can get it on your computer doesn't mean it's yours or rightfully belonging to you. Anyways, I voted option 3. Only thing you can argue is the semantics. When you pirate content, you possess something that does not belong to you.

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Yes, technically it is, just the same as downloading old gamepro magazines from 1994.

But really for most of these games/systems that means the person at a flea person or some thrift store just isn't getting money. (I am talking about old systems of course)

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ledbowman posted...

It's not even a big deal to torrent earthworm jim. I just wouldn't delude myself into thinking i'm not taking someone else's property because they won't sell it to me

This so much. I feel like I've said it a thousand times. I've downloaded shit too, but I'm not going to lie to anyone or myself and say it belongs to me and that I am entitled to it free of charge.

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Leanaunfurled posted...

and you're sure you'd like it but you pirate it anyway, it is stealing.

Only to gamers is it okay to steal something's you don't like but apparently still wanted enough to steal it.

"I dont even like denny's so its okay for me to not pay, I mean they throw out food anyway so it's not like they really even lost anything"

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I Like Toast posted...

Only to gamers is it okay to steal something's you don't like but apparently still wanted enough to steal it.

I was more thinking along the lines of the type of people who pirate games that don't have a demo and then buy the full product after a few hours.

But fuck asking for clarification and just assuming, amirite?

Oh right, I'm not stealing I'm just borrowing, its your fault you didn't sell your product the way I demanded! And please, no one steals the game just to download it again legally. Its just a bullshit story people make up to justify their lack of morals.

It is never okay to steal an entertainment product. It's not complicated.

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k

Yes*

*if it includes MTX then the answer is No.
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To all those who oppose piracy in every single way, that you believe intellectual property is a legitimate property right. Let's say hypothetically the copyright duration was 10 years, so all nes/snes/genesis/psx/ps2/sega saturn/dreamcast/neo-geo/xbox games are in the public domain. If you pirate a video game that is no longer protected by copyright, is that still stealing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35i5AVzpsg

Also, a few quotes from this article: https://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/email-homebrew-and-piracy/

Lets talk more about piracy in general. It is a shallow argument to say that piracy = bad. There are more contexts.

Much piracy came from Russians. Why are the Russians hacking? Are these Russians evil? No. They simply want to play the game. Game companies wouldnt release the game to Russia or have it on a huge delay. When game companies included Russia in their world wide release, they discovered the piracy rate from Russia almost virtually disappeared!

What if someone wants to try out a game but there is no way to rent it and there is no demo. Well, they pirate it to see if it is worth buying. In many cases, piracy can lead to increased sales. Many, many years ago, I pirated the original Unreal Tournament because I thought I hated first person shooters, but I loved the demo. But would I love the full game? Ehh.. But the shitty warez version I got was very entertaining, so I went ahead and bought the full game. Epic Megagames was so happy that everyone was buying their game that they gave out free DLC like new maps and stuff. It was wonderful.

What if a game isnt available to be bought anymore? It is more common now since digital versions go away and cannot be bought. So is it wrong to pirate it? There used to be many abandonware sites putting up games that were abandoned. Was it wrong to download them? However, this form of piracy revealed market interest in good old games which led to the creation of the website/company GOG. GOG would never exist if abandonware wasnt a thing because there would be no idea that the market existed.

What about hacks? Pac-Man is a great game, but it can be made better. One hack of Pac-Man is called Ms. Pac-Man. It was so good, it became its own game. The same holds true for Warcraft 3s tower defense maps or Defense of the Ancients.

If games were available in all regions, and all games were awesome, piracy would never be needed. However, since games become unavailable to be bought, and so many shitty games hide underneath slick marketing and corrupt bought-out reviewers, piracy is necessary part of the market landscape.

Gamers do not pirate good games (unless they cannot purchase them). However, gamers intentionally pirate bad games. This is how the gamer discovers the game is bad and knows not to purchase it. Piracy doesnt destroy the market so much as it protects it. Despite all the piracy of other entertainment today, you still see music and movies selling. However, it is much harder to sell bad shit.

Games going digital will rampantly create more piracy. Gamers will pirate games before they buy them. Without a physical version to sell back, gamers will seek that line of defense from fraud of bad games.

If games wish to sell, they need to be quality games. They also need quality packaging. They need to be physical copies. There is a tangible element here. Since no one will want to believe this paragraph, let me just ask this: what sold more? Nintendos Virtual Console or the Classic Mini consoles? Which created excitement in the marketplace? They are the same exact games. Yet, people go crazy for the classic minis.

I see piracy as not an attack on the market but as an antibody. Dont like piracy? Stop putting out shit. Gamers have shown themselves to be more than willing to buy great games even multiple times.

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Also I want to add I collect games (mainly portables, but also have very large collections starting from the 16-bit era for consoles, and some assorted 8-bit stuff) and the last thing I want is more people feeling like they need to buy a used copy to be ethical. The prices you have to pay for some games is insane. My Saturn collection is smaller than my PS4 collection, but it's more valuable. And it isn't like I bought bad games for PS4. It's just the demand for Bloodborne, even my Old Hunters Japanese Collector's Edition is nowhere near that of many Saturn games. No one is profiting off those used copies except 3rd party sellers, and if you aren't collecting you're just driving up prices for those who want to collect in order to feel you can now morally play some old game. No one really benefits from that. Unless you want to collect you shouldn't waste your money on old used games.

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Clovershroom posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35i5AVzpsg

Emulation is just a natural progression of the free market. What is killing emulation is copyright. There is a lot less emulation than there was before, now that companies are cracking down on hacked consoles. Copyright laws like the unconstitutional DMCA.

darkstar4221 posted...

Emulation is just a natural progression of the free market.

Try telling this bozo that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afLETRGvYpU
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