Poll of the Day > The Last Jedi Pitch Meeting.

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2PV52WNLY" data-time="
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Lets do everything wrong! K, thx byeeeeeeee.

-Rian Johnson
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It still amazes me how much Rian Johnson fucked up that movie. He had a pretty easy premise to work with, and he mismanaged nearly every aspect of it.
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It seems incredibly stupid to make a trilogy and only do one a time with no plan

Zikten posted...

It seems incredibly stupid to make a trilogy and only do one a time with no plan

**cough**original trilogy**cough**
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fuck decent writing, gotta subvert expectations everywhere we can.
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TLJ is the second best film in the franchise. Rian did an amazing job

Making a topic is "super easy, barely an inconvenience"
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Rian Johnson thinks subverting expectations is itself good writing.

That aside, he can't seem to make a plot that actually makes any sense. Characters take actions to get to the place he wanted them to be rather than because they make any sense whatsoever.
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DarkKirby2500 posted...

That aside, he can't seem to make a plot that actually makes any sense. Characters take actions to get to the place he wanted them to be rather than because they make any sense whatsoever.

this is my biggest gripe with TLJ, everyone made dumbass choices that had little to no real character development
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quigonzel posted...

He didn't really have jack shit to work with considering that the trilogy was never planned with a clear direction to begin with. Granted, Johnson took some polarizing risks (some that worked, some that didn't) but I really don't blame only him considering that JJ Abrams pulled a LOST on the trilogy. Meaning he set up all these cool plot points with no idea of what the endgame was.

All he really had to do was show Rei learning from Luke with the First Order growing as a threat. Heck, they could have done a lot with that. Like, say, showing the various nations withdrawing their support from the new republic due to the loss of their capitol, death of Han, perceived weakness, and so-forth. Leia and the rest plan a daring assault to show the power of the New Republic on the First Order but it backfires and they fail resulting in both massive loss of life and the complete shattering of the NR. You could even do something like have an imperial spy get captured who firmly believes in the Imperial Doctrine and points out and harps on the flaws of the republic or have the assault being successful until an assassin kills Akbar or something else.

Rian comes from a school of thought that believes that subverting expectations in-of-itself is a good thing and that controversy means a movie is good. Neither is true. Subverting an expectation only works when it makes sense and builds upon the story and subverting for the sake of doing so leaves people disinterested and even repulsed. Likewise spawning controversy in no way means a movie is good and, in fact, typically means the opposite since great movies tend to be universally loved while it's usually middling to bad ones that spawn divided opinions (usually).
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What could they possibly have been thinking with the Finn Rose story?

They purposefully made them pointless. Just let them retrieve the part and get back to the ship then nobody would be bashing this movie so hard.
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r/circlejerk
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They seriously should have gone with the Vong. I mean, think about it. An enemy that uses living beings as armor, weapon, and ships with a complete hatred for technology that comes from beyond the galactic rim and is a complete void in the force. The NR first ignoring the Vong, trying for a peace with them, and basically acting completely ignorant of the threat and intentions of the Vong until massive damage has been done. The Empire coming in to save the day and the tensions that could arise from having to ally with such an old and hated foe. That's just a few things that could have been done.
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Now let's not talk shit about subverting expectations. Subverting expectations is cool. But Rian Johnson fucked it up and forgot to also add actual plot development to the subversion.

For instance, Avengers: Endgame was also a film that subverted expectations, maybe even moreso than The Last Jedi, but it actually works because unlike Johnson, the Russo brothers respected every other filmmaker's work in the franchise and had actual good development and conclusions in the film.

I stopped after 4,5,6/1,2,3 because something told me Disney would let this happen to the series. I don't feel like I've missed out at all...
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faramir77 posted...

It still amazes me how much Rian Johnson fucked up that movie. He had a pretty easy premise to work with, and he mismanaged nearly every aspect of it.

agreed. How the fuck do they make sequels with Luke, Leia and Han this depressingly terrible?

Also, @mead. Why do you like everything
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I didnt even especially like it, it was ok

But like so many other things nowadays the negative reaction to it is so dramatically overblown
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nothing wrong with having standards tbh

not like anyone here is trashing the actors or being super incel about it.
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Mead posted...

But like so many other things nowadays the negative reaction to it is so dramatically overblown

Gotta agree with this.
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THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Now let's not talk shit about subverting expectations. Subverting expectations is cool. But Rian Johnson fucked it up and forgot to also add actual plot development to the subversion.

For instance, Avengers: Endgame was also a film that subverted expectations, maybe even moreso than The Last Jedi, but it actually works because unlike Johnson, the Russo brothers respected every other filmmaker's work in the franchise and had actual good development and conclusions in the film.

Um how did Avengers subvert expectations? Everything that everyone thought was going to happen did happen.

MrMelodramatic posted...

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Now let's not talk shit about subverting expectations. Subverting expectations is cool. But Rian Johnson fucked it up and forgot to also add actual plot development to the subversion.

For instance, Avengers: Endgame was also a film that subverted expectations, maybe even moreso than The Last Jedi, but it actually works because unlike Johnson, the Russo brothers respected every other filmmaker's work in the franchise and had actual good development and conclusions in the film.

Um how did Avengers subvert expectations? Everything that everyone thought was going to happen did happen.

Umm..., no. Ant-Man didn't expand in Thanos's ass for the victory.
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dragon504 posted...

MrMelodramatic posted...

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Now let's not talk shit about subverting expectations. Subverting expectations is cool. But Rian Johnson fucked it up and forgot to also add actual plot development to the subversion.

For instance, Avengers: Endgame was also a film that subverted expectations, maybe even moreso than The Last Jedi, but it actually works because unlike Johnson, the Russo brothers respected every other filmmaker's work in the franchise and had actual good development and conclusions in the film.

Um how did Avengers subvert expectations? Everything that everyone thought was going to happen did happen.

Umm..., no. Ant-Man didn't expand in Thanos's ass for the victory.

exactly
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MrMelodramatic posted...

Everything that everyone thought was going to happen did happen.

false
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DevilSummoner1 posted...

MrMelodramatic posted...

Everything that everyone thought was going to happen did happen.

false

Wow that sure proved me wrong

Unbridled9 posted...

They seriously should have gone with the Vong.

They really shouldn't have - they were the absolutely worst part of the EU, bar none. Which is an accomplishment, considering the EU was 90% pure liquid shit.



THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Now let's not talk shit about subverting expectations. Subverting expectations is cool. But Rian Johnson fucked it up and forgot to also add actual plot development to the subversion.

The real problem is subverting for the sake of subverting, and trying to subvert pretty much every single plot hook your predecessor has set up for you. At a certain point it just results in the director looking like a too-cool-for-the-room-hipster-asshole who doesn't give a shit about (or actively hates) the franchise they're subverting.

If you're going into Star Wars with the mindset of a postmodern deconstructionist, you've pretty much failed before you write the first word of the script.

Comic fans loved Watchmen (the comic, not the movie), but they would have absolutely loathed it if was a canonical story starring actual established DC characters and not thinly-veiled copies of C and D-list characters in an alternate universe setting. Part of why Uwe Boll video game movies are so universally loathed is because he doesn't give a shit about any of the games he's adapting as much as he was able to buy the scripts cheap and use them to exploit German tax loopholes. Part of why Zack Snyder's take on DC movies is so terrible is that he actively dislikes comics (and has openly admitted to such), and neither understands nor cares to understand the characters he's writing for.

If you're a director and you're not really a fan of the property you're directing, maybe you shouldn't be directing it.


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They really shouldn't have - they were the absolutely worst part of the EU, bar none. Which is an accomplishment, considering the EU was 90% pure liquid shit.

Yea... No. I'm gonna have to say you're being stupid here. Especially since, as I pointed out, they're a stark and distinct contrast to the empire. They could even do stuff like making a situation where the NR has to ally with the Empire to survive which could be really great story-wise. As opposed to the multi-hour Roadrunner cartoon minus the road, running, and any sense of charm or humor that we got.
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TLJ was better than TFA and the prequels, worse than RO and the OT. It sits comfortably in the middle of the Star Wars pantheon. It isn't flawless, but I agree that the hate for it was ridiculously overblown.

Unbridled9 posted...

Yea... No. I'm gonna have to say you're being stupid here. Especially since, as I pointed out, they're a stark and distinct contrast to the empire.

Having an army of clowns taking over planets by honking their magic nose horn at it would also be a stark and distinct contrast to the Empire, but it wouldn't make them any good.

I'm with PO - the Vong were absolutely fucking terrible, and that's coming from someone who loved the EU up to that point. The Vong did what I thought at the time nothing would make me do: it made me stop reading Star Wars books.

They're just...aggressively bad. An army of BDSM-fanatics from outside the galaxy that fly around in magic coral ships that are nigh-imprevious to conventional weapons, have living armour and weapons that are immune to lightsabers, have no presence in the Force, and are from a planet that is both sentient and able to travel through hyperspace. Like... OK, one or two of those traits might have made for a compelling villainous force, but it's like Del Ray just threw together every ridiculous contrivance they could come up with and hoped everyone would be fine with it. The Vong were terribly written and should never have been a thing.
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TLJ was worse than AotC tbh
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Nade Duck posted...

TLJ was worse than AotC tbh

No, it definitely isn't.

TLJ had a plot that actually had logical flow, acting that wasn't shit, and visuals that don't look like they were rendered in a basement on someone's PS2.

Virtually everything is better than AotC, because you basically have to be deliberately trying to sabotage your own project if you want to make something that's worse.
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what was logical about TLJ? everything that happened was fucking pointless and stupid. quit defending garbage.

and hayden christensen is not a bad actor. the writing was ass (but so was the writing in TLJ), but he did alright for what he got. he's still a more interesting character than rey ever will be.
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I'd rather watch ep2 5x in a row than watch ep8 ever again and I don't care for ep2. It was boring.
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Nade Duck posted...

quit defending garbage.

Says the guy touting Hayden Christiensen's acting abilities.

Nade Duck posted...

what was logical about TLJ?

What wasn't? Seemed straightforward enough to me.

Contrast that with AotC. There's so many things that flat out fucking don't make any sense at all in that movie I could write a fucking thesis paper on them. I mean, take a look at the opening stanza. The assassins try and murder Padme with a bomb, then decide to go with something "more subtle", which is completely fucking ass-backwards - you do subtle first, when the target doesn't have their guard up, then switch to high-grade explosives if your plot gets found out.

Anyways, between the two of them, they manage to come up with the only assassination method the Jedi could feasibly thwart given that it relies on living creatures instead of the droid using a blaster or a bomb or even a fucking knife, any of which would have killed Padme long before the Jedi even realized anything was wrong. Which they wouldn't have because Padme turns off the security camera in her room (because she's an idiot and has seemingly forgot why the Jedi are there in the first place) and the Jedi don't bother to immediately knock on her door and ask her to switch it back on (because they're just as dumb as she is).

When everything inevitably goes pear-shaped, Obi-Wan decides to leap out of an open window and grab the retreating droid despite having no idea where it's going or if it can support his weight, rendering himself completely helpless in the process. Fortunately, instead of self-destructing or keelhauling him into a building or just flying off into the night, the droid obediently returns to its owner. Anakin hastily follows, ensuring that Padme is completely unguarded in the event that the assassins are lurking nearby waiting to confirm the kill (fortunately they're not, because they're as bad at their jobs as the Jedi). When Zam flees into a crowded bar, instead of using her shapeshifting powers to escape, she tries a sneak attack instead, despite the fact that a) The Jedi can sense imminent danger and she presumably knows that; b) There are two of them, so taking down one does nothing; c) Even if there weren't, the nearby bar patrons presumably would not take too kindly to someone getting merc'ed right next to them; and d) There's absolutely no reason she has to pick this fight in the first place, what the fuck. She predictably gets captured, leading to Jango Fett deciding to silence her but, because he's apparently a moron, he decides to use the one weapon in his considerable arsenal that can be traced back to his current base of operations, a planet that he and his employer have spent considerable time, effort, and resources into hiding from the Jedi.

That's just one subthread, and there are so many more. Like why the Jedi thought it was a good idea to send the immature trainee that all of them agreed was not in proper control of his emotions to escort the woman he had clearly been hitting on to her scenic home planet, or how Obi-Wan never bothers to question the provenance of an army purchased in the name of a dead Jedi master.

Seriously, Episode II is a fucking mess. TLJ has its moments of bad logic, but it doesn't hold a candle to the raging inferno of stupidity that is AotC.

Nade Duck posted...

and hayden christensen is not a bad actor

That explains the stellar career he's had since the prequels ended.

Don't get me wrong, I agree AotC's writing was shit and did him no favours, but he was a terrible actor as well. As proof, actual decent actors - like Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor, and Ian McDiarmid - were able to take the atrocious scripts and extract something resembling a decent performance out of them.
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Having an army of clowns taking over planets by honking their magic nose horn at it would also be a stark and distinct contrast to the Empire, but it wouldn't make them any good.

They did that. It was called 'Stephan King's It'.

They're just...aggressively bad. An army of BDSM-fanatics from outside the galaxy that fly around in magic coral ships that are nigh-imprevious to conventional weapons, have living armour and weapons that are immune to lightsabers,

Well yea. They don't use technology but that means that they need a way to have space battles and fight the jedi that doesn't depend on technology. Besides, living starships aren't an unusual thing in sci-fi. Just look at Farscape. Whole series takes place in a living starship. That's not to mention the Reapers (they are living starships), Zerg, I'm pretty sure that the Vorlon ships counted as being at least semi-alive, Wraith, and heck, the very first episode of TNG dealt with a living star-ship so I don't see what's wrong with the Vong having living starships. Can't say much about the weapons being immune to lightsabers since that's a star-wars specific thing; but I will also point out that there are things that can block a lightsaber in the movies and both Legends and current EU so I don't see why THAT is suddenly the gamebreaker.

have no presence in the Force,

Well yea. That's part of what makes them unique. That they are so alien.

and are from a planet that is both sentient and able to travel through hyperspace.

The living planet part, once again, really isn't that unusual for sci-fi. Heck, both Marvel and DC have at least one and I vaguely recall a show where a guy outright managed to have sex with an entire living planet.

TLJ was better than TFA and the prequels, worse than RO and the OT. It sits comfortably in the middle of the Star Wars pantheon. It isn't flawless, but I agree that the hate for it was ridiculously overblown.

Yea. No. TLJ was easily the worst of the worst. TPM was an okay movie but had no reason to exist, AotC was a dumb sci-fi action flick but could be enjoyable at times, RotS was decent, the original trilogy was legendary, TFA was a retrend but had potential, RO plugged a plot 'hole' Dorkly did better but was still fun, the Han Solo movie was just... why? But TLJ? I didn't think it was possible for me to find a character I hated more than Jar Jar but I found it twice over in Holdo and Rose. Not to mention a line worse than the sand line but then twice over again from Rose (you know exactly which two lines). That's not to mention a dumb plot full of plotholes, easy solutions on both sides, idiotic conclusions, subverting expectations for no reason, and it basically just felt like a complete and total backhand to everything. Hell, I'd rather watch the Holiday Special than TLJ again! Yea! I said it. I would rather have wookies screech in my ear and watch Bea Arthur sing about a bar than hear Rose's stupid dialogue or deal with all the ruined buildup again. You want to talk about how the Vong killed your interest in the EU? TLJ killed mine in the new stuff.
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Unbridled9 posted...

Besides, living starships aren't an unusual thing in sci-fi.

Whether they're common in sci-fi isn't the point - it's whether or not they work for Star Wars.

And the Vong don't. You trying to divide my post into a point-by-point critique is missing exactly what I'm saying. The Vong read like bad teenage fanfiction. "These are my bad guys - they're way stronger than the Empire and they kill hundreds of trillions of people and they're so cool because they're dark and edgy and their weapons and armour are totally immune to lightsabers and they have coral ships which are way, way better than anything the New Republic fields and they hate the Jedi and aren't present in the Force at all and their main planet is a living planet with hyperdrive and even when everyone teams up against them they're still stronger. Original faction, do not steal."

As mentioned, if they'd taken one or two of those aspects and run with them it might have worked, but all of them in one faction is just stupidly over the top.

Unbridled9 posted...

RotS was decent

RotS avoids being the worst Star Wars movie only by dint of the fact that AotC exists. RotS is the better movie, but not by much and only because it would be difficult to be any worse. It makes most of the same mistakes as AotC did, just not quite as egregiously.

TPM basically wins the "best prequel" award by default, as it's the only one of the three films that doesn't have its head firmly planted up its own ass.

Unbridled9 posted...

That's not to mention a dumb plot full of plotholes

Such as?

Unbridled9 posted...

easy solutions on both sides

Again, such as?

Unbridled9 posted...

idiotic conclusions

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

Unbridled9 posted...

subverting expectations for no reason

I'm fine with that. I actually enjoyed seeing a different take on Star Wars. It wasn't a Lucasean SW film, but that's fine - Lucas isn't running things anymore. TFA hewed close to the traditional formula by basically being the soft-reboot of ANH - I was fine with that at the time, as Disney needed to prove they could do Star Wars and calm down the fanbase, but all thematic ties to past movies should have (and did) ended there. I want to see people doing new things with the franchise, not just trying to ape Lucas and hope it works out (since even Lucas aping Lucas churned out as many misses as it did hits). I applaud Rian Johnson for playing with the formula and I admit it kept things suspenseful, which most Star Wars movies can't do (no other film in the saga would have the balls to pull some of the things that happened in TLJ, which means when a protagonist was faced with a difficult situation, there was no longer a guarantee that it would all work out - personally, I found that refreshing).

Not all of these experiments will be successful, and TLJ clearly wasn't for a decent chunk of the audience, but I don't look at that as a terrible thing. I mean, look at Rogue One - that was also a very, very different take on the Galaxy Far, Far Away, yet it receives near universal praise as either a good or great movie. Even if you don't like TLJ, it's the price you pay for getting ROs and other "riffs" on the Star Wars theme.

Unbridled9 posted...

and it basically just felt like a complete and total backhand to everything

Yet you like the Vong, which are basically the most un-Star-Warsy thing to ever show up in Star Wars this side of that horrible zombie stormtrooper book.
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Holdo was literally a feminist from present day Earth though.
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LeetCheet posted...

Holdo was literally a feminist from present day Earth though.

because she had purple hair
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HylianFox posted...

LeetCheet posted...

Holdo was literally a feminist from present day Earth though.

because she had purple hair

Guys are offended because she wouldn't give a male her plans.
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Zangulus posted...

AllstarSniper32 posted...

HylianFox posted...

LeetCheet posted...

Holdo was literally a feminist from present day Earth though.

because she had purple hair

Guys are offended because she wouldn't give a male her plans.

The hilarity of people getting all butt hurt because she was a lead female that came out of nowhere, and had colorful hair. In a universe that has fucking red and green alien chicks with double tentacle breast heads they want to fuck.

The stupidest thing to get mad about TLJ is when I see people actually upset that she didn't reveal her plans to Po. When people bring that up, it just makes them look stupid.
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But if she told him(and other people) about her plans then there wouldn't even be a mutiny and they wouldn't even need a codebreaker either.

Significantly lesser chance of screwing up plans.
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