Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 484: Paradigm Shift

(+) Yeah! (+)

god I remember how they completely ruined the Orton/Wyatt thing when it was so good for so long.
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"Orton" "so good"

hmm
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TheRock1525 posted...

Steiner posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

ZeroSignal620 posted...

Was it the best story at the time? Very likely.

Orton/Bray/Harper definitely topped it.

i both hope and think you're the only person alive who thinks that but who can read the mind of a wwe fan today

It was like the last form of long term storytelling the WWE ever did culminating in an amazing moment. The only mistake leading up to the match was the decision not to include Harper. The match itself was terrible but there was far more justification for it being a main event option than Jericho vs Owens.

I loved Jeri-KO, too, but Orton posing outside a burning shack > Festival of Friendship.

I can also agree with this. As much as I loved Y2J-Owens, the months of build-up to Orton-Wyatt, even with the house burning vignette (which was good just for being outside of the usual WWE 'good ****'), there was a lot of hype and excitement going in.

It really needed babyface Harper, and it really need to not be one of the worst matches (and things got even worse at Payback).
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Don't know if anyone posted it already but AEW apparently did 98k buys

Yeah, it sorely missed Harper. I know that people are saying that Harper wasn't there yet, bit you know what? He was a major part of the story and he had been used particularly well for a while. They had him teased to get that push for a while.

And then it just deflated when they kicked him out of the feud and just made it seem like he didn't matter at all. Harper could have been a top level talent. He could have seriously have been a giant redneck monster, and all they had to do was have him involved with that Mania match instead of being that loser that knew Orton wasn't good for the Wyatt Family and Bray cared so little about him he was willing to abandon him.

Like shit, just put him in the match. Let him look super strong. It wasn't like people didn't want him involved. He had a vocal amount of support that would have only grown. Shit, he probably would have gotten cheered the most out of the three at Mania knowing that crowd.
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man, all i remember is how disappointed i was with orton winning the rumble. i don't know if you guys are talking about being hyped originally in the summer when they put them together, or if you're all being ironic about that burning barn segment being good. my mind is being blown right now because i'm in agreement with jericho, and i think most people, that jericho owens was the only good thing on wwe tv that mania season
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Oh, I actually agree that Jericho/Owens was a much bigger deal actually. But I think we're all conditioned that Mania needs to have JUST one of four different guys up at the top because they make everyone look like scrubs in comparison. Like Taker, Brock, Roman, Trips, and Cena are the only guys that even remotely feel like they should be in the main event of Mania because they have screwed up so profoundly at making any stars. So it's hard to really see them main evening Mania, I guess?

That said, I thought the burning shed was perfect stupid wrestling angle that, while so stupid, was so entertaining.
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I could have sworn Orton burning the shack got a really positive reaction here.
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ShatteredElysium posted...

Don't know if anyone posted it already but AEW apparently did 98k buys

Yeah its in the new Observer. Dave says the non-WWE or WCW record is an ECW PPV with 99k buys so with replay buys DoN should break that record
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What was TNAs record?

80,000 for the first Joe vs Angle
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The Festival of Friendship is the best segment of Raw all time.
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Maniac64 posted...

I could have sworn Orton burning the shack got a really positive reaction here.

It was fucking hilarious. I loved it. I don't know if I loved it "ironically" or if I just loved it, but I was certainly entertained.

Also hats off to the production staff for the shot of Orton pose against the fire. That was great.
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Jakyl25 posted...

80,000 for the first Joe vs Angle

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Who would invent a Lopen button?
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i think i heard people praise the segment but only in the way that people ever talk about wwe - the segment entertained or amused me, not like it made you care about or want to see the match. that definitely doesn't make me think it was in the league of jericho and owens, the last thing i actually enjoyed in wwe
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I liked it as someone invested in the Bray Wyatt lore
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Well as a result of said segment I was interested in seeing how it went the following week, at least. And also the match, as a result.
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plus more importantly outside of the dumb shed segment there was nothing to get interested in and an all time bad road to wrestlemania!
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i guess i'm not trying to retroactively convince anybody it was bad, i just personally had never heard of anybody thinking it was good before and am struggling to get my head around it
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I just remember that entire time having things exciting like those two storylines, but then having freaking Roman vs Undertaker looking overhead that was just impossible to care about. Even Brock vs Goldberg had a lot of excitement going into it, but Roman vs Taker was such poison.
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Is that button to make me concede defeat? They got in the same ballpark of buys that peak TNA did so that plays more at what I was saying that their attendance number was bloated relative to their influence at the moment, since they got 120% peak TNA buys and over double peak TNA attendance.

It's at the very least not a bad buy rate though and does indicate that their current baseline is probably around peak TNA level, which isn't a bad starting point all things considered if your product is actually good.
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Lopen, I find myself usually on your side in a lot of stuff, and even when I'm not, I can at least see your point, but I'm just not seeing it here.
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I mean, I'll somewhat concede defeat in that I think I underestimated AEW slightly but I think my overall point of the attendance number being significantly bloated is vindicated by that buyrate.
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https://twitter.com/mattkoonmusic/status/1134475058586497024
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look for what it's worth i wouldn't expect anybody to accept defeat in the face of how obnoxious i'm being about it
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Lopen posted...

since they got 120% peak TNA buys and over double peak TNA attendance.

You keep saying "peak" but that's kind of misleading when it really only counts like one or two events
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HashtagSEP posted...

You keep saying "peak" but that's kind of misleading when it really only counts like one or two events

That has consistently been my definition of "peak TNA" throughout the entire argument because we're comparing to a highly hyped show. If it's misleading to people like you who weren't reading the whole thing I apologize.
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Where are you getting 60k - > 100k is 120%?
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I'm getting 80k->100k is 120% which I guess I should've said 125% if we're splitting hairs.
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This is what I don't get.

How is 120 or 125% not really significant when the numbers we're dealing with are only in the tens of thousands? That's actually a pretty huge jump in numbers.
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It's big but significantly less big than the attendance jump is my point. I think the PPV numbers are a much more accurate indicator of your current popularity because of how the thing was marketed. Attendance to a show when you only have two shows and the majority are flown in measures how many hardcore supporters you have more than supporters total.
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Okay doubling down on your incorrect number won't do you any favours though.
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I'm doubling down on Jakyl's incorrect number. If he was incorrect blame him not me.
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Tna record ppv number - 55k

It's closer to double and the best bit is I was never even going to argue ppv numbers, assumed 4 years of TNA TV by 2008 would have made it not even close.

I was right that it wasn't close!
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I don't know how accurate these are but looking at these 98k absolutely dwarfs anything TNA did and it isn't even close if you look at any sort of average across a set period of time

http://oswreview.com/history/tna-ppv-statistics-2004-2010/

Oh shit, I missed the actual 60k when I went looking myself just then. My bad.
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now i don't bring this up to dunk on Lopen even further, but actually the AEW number is even more impressive when you consider that in 2019, people very much balk at the idea of $50 for a PPV. In 2008, it was the norm.

i gotta say, this number has even shocked me. really impressive.
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I don't really think the PPV industry is dead per se. That's WWE network rhetoric getting to you. UFC and Boxing can still do decent numbers. Mayweather vs Mcgregor was in 2017 and did really well. If people want to watch something, they'll shell out. I think it's a slight factor but again not nearly as big as you're arguing there.

55k - 98k is a big enough difference vs 80k - 98k that I'm willing to concede the point though. I do think 98k is slightly inflated because, again, two shows per year, but not enough to compensate for that amount of difference.
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I don't think PPV is dead but I do think $50 is a lot more sticker shock for most wrestling people than it was a few years ago before every company out there started doing $10/month subscription services
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Lopen posted...

I don't really think the PPV industry is dead per se. That's WWE network rhetoric getting to you. UFC and Boxing can still do decent numbers. Mayweather vs Mcgregor was in 2017 and did really well. If people want to watch something, they'll shell out. I think it's a slight factor but again not nearly as big as you're arguing there.

I do agree with all of this, but a $50 pro wrestling PPV in 2019 does stand out as an anomaly which i'm sure gave some people pause
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Lopen posted...

It's big but significantly less big than the attendance jump is my point. I think the PPV numbers are a much more accurate indicator of your current popularity because of how the thing was marketed.

Buddy, zero dollars were spent marketing this.
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Lopen posted...

I'm willing to concede the point though.

okay everyone lay off him now i know how difficult this was
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Zero dollars were spent marketing it yet it was still very effective!
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My number was indeed incorrect.

But its wrestling, you round up
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Lopen posted...

I don't really think the PPV industry is dead per se. That's WWE network rhetoric getting to you. UFC and Boxing can still do decent numbers.

Just a finer point nitpick here: UFC is no longer on traditional PPV

Mayweather vs Mcgregor was in 2017 and did really well.

Yeah Id say the most buys of any PPV all time is doing really well
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Finally updated my WWE main event wins/appearances files.

With MITB, Brock Lesnar passes Hulk Hogan and is now tied with HBK for 5th place (19 wins). Two more ppv main event wins would have him pass HBK and Austin to take 4th place.

It was also Brock's 32nd main event on ppv, which passes Chris Jericho for 9th place. On a side note, if Goldberg/Taker main events Super Showdown, Taker reclaims the top spot by himself with his 72nd ppv main event.
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so, in the discord we just finished our 2nd wresting draft, this time it's featuring the roster of 2000s (00-09) WWE, and was drafted by myself, Eddv, scarletspeed7, and Icon. We'll soon be posting our cards here for your viewing pleasure
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Here comes:

The Bash - July PPV in the year 200X

Live from the Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, NC

Your commentary team for the evening is Jim Ross and Paul Heyman

OPENER: Tag Team Ladder Match: Simon Dean and Maven v. The Mexicools (Psicosis and Essa Rios) v. Too Cool (Grand Master Sexay and Scotty Too Hotty) w/ Rikishi v. X Factor (X Pac and Albert) (c)

Simple Crowd Pleasing Ladder Match - the story going into this one is that X Factor have been sliding by on the skins of their teeth to hold onto these titles and have lost non title matches to all 3 other teams. Simon Dean and Maven are in their Fitness Guru angle while Essa Rios has been unwillingly drafted into the Mexicools by Psicosis. Expect all four teams to reach deep into their wacky bags of tricks in this one!

Kerwin White v. Rodney Mack w/ Teddy Long in Rodney Mack's 5 Minute White Boy Challenge

Rodney Mack has continued upping the ante on his 5 Minute White Boy challenges and Chavo Guerrero has been waiting for the price to be right - now that a cool $500,000 is on the line Chavo's devious plan has come to fruition and he is here as Local Golf Pro Kerwin White to try and cheat Teddy and Rodney out of their money!

The Miz and Festus v. Booker T in a Ring Bell on a Pole match

Booker T has been down on his luck since losing his WWE title match to John Cena and The Miz in particular has been getting over on making a fool of Booker. In Miz's latest scheme, he has injured Biscuits and Gravy's Jesse long term and has taken on Festus as his bodyguard. Booker has earned this chance to free Festus from the Miz's arrogant schemes. In this one there will be no ring bell at the beginning of the match because its going to be on a POLE instead! Can Booker finally defeat The Miz once and for all or will the Miz get his hands on that ring bell and allow Festus to dismantle Booker all over again!

Intercontinental Title Match: Batista v. Sean O'Haire v. Jeff Hardy (c)

Sean O'Haire has been sowing the seeds of conflict between Babyfaces Batista and Jeff Hardy. Batista has been suddenly very very greedy to get his hands on Hardy's title and meanwhile Hardy has been behaving erratically - evidently after O'Haire had been tempting him to give into old demons. After weeks of Hardy and Batista brutalizing one another building up to this, O'Haire tricked both into being allowed into this match!

Hell in a Cell for the WWE Title: "Big Evil" Undertaker v. John Cena (c)

John Cena has been unstoppable since winning the WWE title from JBL at Mania and has now found himself toe to toe with an equally unstoppable force, the Undertaker. Cena has perhaps foolishly allowed Undertaker to choose their battlefield and now must endure Hell in a Cell with Big Evil! Could this be the end of John Cena? Or is Big Evil in for his first major setback in years?

Women's Title: Gail Kim v. Chyna (c)

No woman has been able to challenge Chyna even remotely since she secured the women's title at WMX7 but Gail Kim is not just any woman. Gail has been driven to show she is the best in the world and has declared that if Chyna wants to retain this title, she is going to have to kill her! There is fire in both competitors, but can the more athletic Gail really topple the monstrously powerful Chyna?

America's Finest Challenge: Kurt Angle v. Hollywood Hulk Hogan

Two American Icons. America's Finest, Kurt Angle vs America's Finest Hulk Hogan was the match we were promised but when Hogan began to lose crowd support to the younger and more athletic Angle, Hogan has turned to his darkside, NEEDING to prove that he is STILL Immortal.
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