Current Events > The lesson from Brexit is: Never join the European Union

(+) Yeah! (+)

They say its a nice friendship group and you can leave if you want, but if you do they're gonna do everything in their power to fuck you up in the future rather than have a good relationship with you.

What a horrible, undemocratic bully organization.

Unless you are really poor, then it's a sweet deal.
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NibeIungsnarf posted...

They say its a nice friendship group and you can leave if you want,

I don't actually think that's the pitch they make
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I don't understand how the EU is the bad guy in this scenario?

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?
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NibeIungsnarf posted...

They say its a nice friendship group and you can leave if you want,

No, they don't.

but if you do they're gonna do everything in their power to fuck you up in the future rather than have a good relationship with you.

Nor do they do that.

Frankly, it seems to me you've paid close to zero attention to the EU.

Doom_Art posted...

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?

Whats the point of having no deal that is useful to the exiters other than to send a message to anyone else who is considering leaving?

Horrible people all around who wants to create fear in member states on the EU side.

the EU is great for poor countries, since they get more out of it than what they put in. for bigger/richer countries it's a toss-up

NibeIungsnarf posted...

Whats the point of having no deal that is useful to the exiters other than to send a message to anyone else who is considering leaving?

There's plenty of possible deals, the UK just doesn't want them.

NibeIungsnarf posted...

Whats the point of having no deal that is useful to the exiters other than to send a message to anyone else who is considering leaving?

The EU and UK have negotiated and reached a deal. The UK parliament has to approve of it.
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The EU is treating the UK like they arent an EU member... which, remember, was the point of Brexit. To leave the EU.
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Doom_Art posted...

I don't understand how the EU is the bad guy in this scenario?

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?

The EU is the bad guy in this scenario because they've literally said that they want to make "an example" of the UK to disincentivize anyone else from ever trying to leave again.

Junker's exact words: "We'll make an example of Britain that no-one will want to follow"
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-no-other-countries-will-quit-eu-after-britain-eu-chief-juncker-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T
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EU is the oppressor because they have all the power

I thought thats how it works...all power games.

Sick of these oppressors oppressing a small country like this

The UK has always been problematic with the EU. So no one should be surprised that leaving is also a hassle.
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s0nicfan posted...

Doom_Art posted...

I don't understand how the EU is the bad guy in this scenario?

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?

The EU is the bad guy in this scenario because they've literally said that they want to make "an example" of the UK to disincentivize anyone else from ever trying to leave again.

Junker's exact words: "We'll make an example of Britain that no-one will want to follow"
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-no-other-countries-will-quit-eu-after-britain-eu-chief-juncker-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

seem like that's a headline and not a quote
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Romes187 posted...

EU is the oppressor because they have all the power

I thought thats how it works...all power games.

Sick of these oppressors oppressing a small country like this

It's not that being in the EU is good, but that the EU wants to act so punitively when you leave so that exiting sucks even more than remaining. Not a good look.
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s0nicfan posted...

The EU is the bad guy in this scenario because they've literally said that they want to make "an example" of the UK to disincentivize anyone else from ever trying to leave again.

Junker's exact words: "We'll make an example of Britain that no-one will want to follow"
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-no-other-countries-will-quit-eu-after-britain-eu-chief-juncker-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

The article doesn't say that at all. It says, he said:

"No. Britain's example will make everyone realise that it's not worth leaving"

Which, while possible wrong, certainly doesn't make him seem like a bad guy.

How are they being punitive? If you want to be a membership organization then membership needs to mean something. Is 'giving Britain everything they want' the only non-punitive stance?
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tennisdude818 posted...

It's not that being in the EU is good, but that the EU wants to act so punitively when you leave so that exiting sucks even more than remaining. Not a good look.

In that case, they fail really miserable at acting punitively.

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Doom_Art posted...

I don't understand how the EU is the bad guy in this scenario?

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?

The EU is the bad guy in this scenario because they've literally said that they want to make "an example" of the UK to disincentivize anyone else from ever trying to leave again.

Junker's exact words: "We'll make an example of Britain that no-one will want to follow"
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-no-other-countries-will-quit-eu-after-britain-eu-chief-juncker-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

seem like that's a headline and not a quote

I assumed the headline was the quote based on how it was formatted, but you can take the other one if you prefer: "Britain's example will make everyone realise that it's not worth leaving."
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s0nicfan posted...

I assumed the headline was the quote based on how it was formatted, but you can take the other one if you prefer: "Britain's example will make everyone realise that it's not worth leaving."

yeah I did take that and it's not ominous and doesn't imply he's intentionally making things worse for them in order to set an example
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Person A) I'm breaking up with you.
Person B) Okay, then you have to leave my house, I'm taking back the car I let you borrow, and you're not getting any money from our "joint" checking account that I put all the money into.
Person B) Whoa, why are you being so unreasonable?
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s0nicfan posted...

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Doom_Art posted...

I don't understand how the EU is the bad guy in this scenario?

If UK was the party that abruptly decided to fuck off, why is it on the EU to accommodate them?

The EU is the bad guy in this scenario because they've literally said that they want to make "an example" of the UK to disincentivize anyone else from ever trying to leave again.

Junker's exact words: "We'll make an example of Britain that no-one will want to follow"
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-no-other-countries-will-quit-eu-after-britain-eu-chief-juncker-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

seem like that's a headline and not a quote

I assumed the headline was the quote based on how it was formatted, but you can take the other one if you prefer: "Britain's example will make everyone realise that it's not worth leaving."

That quote in no way makes the EU bad guys
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I mean for me personally it just shows how problematic it is to have direct democracy on complicated international agreements, which is probably why (as a for instance) the framers in our country of the USA intended for the not-directly-democratic senate to be the ones over foreign policy?

idk all the complications seem both predictable and actually predicted even before negotiations started
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K181 posted...

Person A) I'm breaking up with you.
Person B) Okay, then you have to leave my house, I'm taking back the car I let you borrow, and you're not getting any money from our "joint" checking account that I put all the money into.
Person B) Whoa, why are you being so unreasonable?

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Well okay... so are people saying the UK are the bad guys here? Or is it case where both sides have valid reasons for their stance and nobody is the bad guy, because both are acting in their own self interests?
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The problem is the leave campaign made a load of promises they knew they couldn't deliver because they never thought they would have to. The EU isn't the bad guy for looking out for their own interests regardless of how you feel about the concept of the EU.

JE19426 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

It's not that being in the EU is good, but that the EU wants to act so punitively when you leave so that exiting sucks even more than remaining. Not a good look.

In that case, they fail really miserable at acting punitively.

Not having a free trade deal makes everybody poorer.
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s0nicfan posted...

Well okay... so are people saying the UK are the bad guys here? Or is it case where both sides have valid reasons for their stance and nobody is the bad guy, because both are acting in their own self interests?

Nobodies the "bad guy" exactly. The UK's the asshole for leaving, with no plan, and trying to pin all the blame on the EU for it.

s0nicfan posted...

Well okay... so are people saying the UK are the bad guys here? Or is it case where both sides have valid reasons for their stance and nobody is the bad guy, because both are acting in their own self interests?

I don't think its about who is bad or who is good... The UK is on the losing end of the deal, though, and it's something they initiated which I think means they lost? AFAIK there's not a lot of internal dissent within the EU about what to do with Brexit, but there is a lot of dissent within the UK over how to deal with Brexit
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Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Well okay... so are people saying the UK are the bad guys here? Or is it case where both sides have valid reasons for their stance and nobody is the bad guy, because both are acting in their own self interests?

I don't think its about who is bad or who is good... The UK is on the losing end of the deal, though, and it's something they initiated which I think means they lost? AFAIK there's not a lot of internal dissent within the EU about what to do with Brexit, but there is a lot of dissent within the UK over how to deal with Brexit

I mean that makes sense, right (in terms of dissent)? The UK is the third largest financial supporter of the EU, so there's no real benefit to any EU country to them leaving. Meanwhile, Brexit was passed by narrow margins, so you've already got a divide among people who want to leave and stay.
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Wow this topic is a master class in "knowing fuck-all about diplomacy".
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tennisdude818 posted...

JE19426 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

It's not that being in the EU is good, but that the EU wants to act so punitively when you leave so that exiting sucks even more than remaining. Not a good look.

In that case, they fail really miserable at acting punitively.

Not having a free trade deal makes everybody poorer.

What do you mean? They do have free trade, what they don't have is membership in the single market -- even the kind of partial membership they obviously wanted.

It would be like saying we don't have a free trade deal with Mexico because you need to go through customs to drive a truck from Mexico to the US.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Not having a free trade deal makes everybody poorer.

Ok? Good thing the deal doesn't end that.

Balrog0 posted...

I don't think its about who is bad or who is good... The UK is on the losing end of the deal, though, and it's something they initiated which I think means they lost? AFAIK there's not a lot of internal dissent within the EU about what to do with Brexit, but there is a lot of dissent within the UK over how to deal with Brexit

Not really, the EU only gas a handful of influential members on the world stage and losing one out of the top 3 is a huge blow to the union. It's impossible to say in the long term how this really impacts the UK. Right now there is a lot of scrambling and uncertainty because of the deadline, but they can negotiate new deals and different alliances if necessary.
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s0nicfan posted...

Well okay... so are people saying the UK are the bad guys here? Or is it case where both sides have valid reasons for their stance and nobody is the bad guy, because both are acting in their own self interests?

Nobody's the bad guy. The UK is just the dumb guy as they acted against their self-interests by voting to leave due to all the morons that fell hook, line, and sinker for outright lies that were identified as lies and despite literally every economic expert telling the electoral that Brexit would be inherently self-destructive, continuing to today where many assume they deserve to have their cake and eat it, too.

Meanwhile, the EU is just saying, "fine, leave, but if you're abandoning all the responsibilities and obligations of EU membership you sure as heck aren't going to reap all the benefits of EU membership."
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JE19426 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Not having a free trade deal makes everybody poorer.

Ok? Good thing the deal doesn't end that.

what deal? the one parliament is going to shoot in the head? UK is on the fast track to crashing out, which will likely loose them gibraltar and Ireland. and if those go you'll see Scotland trying to go too.
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Why does the U.K. think that the EU is nothing without them? Lol

France: similar size economy
Germany: a big economy
Spain: smaller economy but by no means small. Add Italy and Portugal to the mix and you got a decent size economy there.
Ireland: see above.

Oh yeah, they sure are shaking in fear thinking of the day when the mighty U.K. will leave and take 90% of the EU economy with it lmao

monkmith posted...

what deal? the one parliament is going to shoot in the head? UK is on the fast track to crashing out, which will likely loose them gibraltar and Ireland. and if those go you'll see Scotland trying to go too.

That's not the EU's fault.

Europe bad
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TomNook20 posted...

in the long term how this really impacts the UK

I'm going to be controversial here and suggest it'll be negative.

K181 posted...

"fine, leave, but if you're abandoning all the responsibilities and obligations of EU membership you sure as heck aren't going to reap all the benefits of EU membership."

In the 80s and 90s Quebec was flirting with the idea of separating from Canada. There was a pretty strong secession movement that elected people at the provincial and federal level

There were a few referendums that were held on the matter, and in both cases, the government of Quebec wanted what the UK wants with the EU

They wanted all the benefits of membership and confederation without shouldering any of the responsibilities or duties or drawbacks.

That sort of demand for special treatment didn't work for them then, and it won't work for the UK now.
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JE19426 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Not having a free trade deal makes everybody poorer.

Ok? Good thing the deal doesn't end that.

Isn't that only if they agree to stay in the customs union?
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JE19426 posted...

monkmith posted...

what deal? the one parliament is going to shoot in the head? UK is on the fast track to crashing out, which will likely loose them gibraltar and Ireland. and if those go you'll see Scotland trying to go too.

That's not the EU's fault.

they are holding UKs feet to the fire over it though, and rightly so. i do wonder if they'll allow the UK to just sweep the brexit vote under the rug.
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monkmith posted...

they are holding UKs feet to the fire over it though, and rightly so. i do wonder if they'll allow the UK to just sweep the brexit vote under the rug.

They've already confirmed that the UK can "cancel" Brexit if they want.
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monkmith posted...

i do wonder if they'll allow the UK to just sweep the brexit vote under the rug.

IIRC they did make some thing recently saying that the UK can revoke article 50 or whatever unilaterally
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monkmith posted...

they are holding UKs feet to the fire over it though

I don't see how.

tennisdude818 posted...

Isn't that only if they agree to stay in the customs union?

Yes, temporarily, which the UK is agreeing to, so again I don't see your point.

The real lesson is to have a plan for what to do once you've scuttled your ship before you scuttle it, not plan once you've done it.
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https://twitter.com/brehonisbest/status/1073491717570117634
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kirbymuncher posted...

https://twitter.com/brehonisbest/status/1073491717570117634

Lol

kirbymuncher posted...

https://twitter.com/brehonisbest/status/1073491717570117634

That's the mother of all political walkoff statements. Goddamn.
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