Current Events > Hardcore FE players that hate on Casual Mode are the worst.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah there is. Dead units are penalized in xp

Which is a lot less than losing them forever.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Save scumming is cheating, straight up

Resetting an entire level isn't save scumming.
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Darmik posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah there is. Dead units are penalized in xp

Which is a lot less than losing them forever.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Save scumming is cheating, straight up

Resetting an entire level isn't save scumming.

I hope he has never loaded up a previous save in a game. Cuz that would be cheating.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Look, I'm just going to say it outright. If you reset during classic mode, you're cheating, plain and simple. It's no different from turning on Diablo 1 hardcore mode and then playing with hacked items that make you unlikable.

The devs themselves reset. I'll find that interview for you later.

If they intended for you to never reset, why don't they enforce that by autosaving? The GBA games had autosaving for temporary in-chapter saves, so they had the technology.

What you're doing is called an ironman run. A completely self-imposed challenge, no different from a nuzlocke in Pokemon.
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Tmaster148 posted...

I hope he has never loaded up a previous save in a game. Cuz that would be cheating.

You fail to lack the distinction in games with progress beyond permadeath instead of just all or nothing victory conditions.

Azardea posted...

What you're doing is called an ironman run. A completely self-imposed challenge, no different from a nuzlocke in Pokemon.

There's nothing self imposed about it beyond your decision to pick classic in the first place.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

You fail to lack the distinction in games with progress beyond permadeath instead of just all or nothing victory conditions.

I wouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses if I were you.
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If I'm playing an RPG battle and I feel like I've used too many potions or resources and decided to load a previous point and start again you'd consider that save scumming?
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Tmaster148 posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

You fail to lack the distinction in games with progress beyond permadeath instead of just all or nothing victory conditions.

I wouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses if I were you.

Go reset some more because you can't handle losing units
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

You fail to lack the distinction in games with progress beyond permadeath instead of just all or nothing victory conditions.

I wouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses if I were you.

Go reset some more because you can't handle losing units

Looks like I upset you.
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Darmik posted...

If I'm playing an RPG battle and I feel like I've used too many potions or resources and decided to load a previous point and start again you'd consider that save scumming?

Depends on the item.

In Final Fantasy potions are in near unlimited supply and trivial to overcome.

In Final Fantasy Tactics resetting because you broke a unique katana is absolutely savescumming.
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But the game gives you a save mechanic to use. Doesn't it limit saves made during battle to avoid savescumming between turns on harder difficulties?

If they wanted you to keep playing no matter what I'm sure they'd put those mechanics in place.
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Fire Emblem games are just too much trouble to play when you have to either reset the game or continue on with a gimped party every time you make a mistake

Also the 3DS games are too much in the realm of dating sims. I couldn't get into Awakening because I got sick of playing matchmaker and clicking through all the dialog just to level up my character's affection towards each other so I could actually get through upcoming battles without being heavily underpowered. And there was some point out of the blue where the healer girl and Chrom fell in love and decided to get married? Like is this an army or is this Facebook?

And then later on I killed Tharja thinking she was a villain, and later found out she can not only join you but is pretty powerful, and I had already saved, soooooooooo I had to restart and delete a 7-hour save. Then I played another hour in and just couldn't take going through the game a second time so I shelved it

I really wish they'd make a new Advance Wars game.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

There's nothing self imposed about it beyond your decision to pick classic in the first place.

Nothing implies that you aren't supposed to reset. Nothing. Otherwise, show us your proof. Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.
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Actually I really wish Yahtzee would review a Fire Emblem game, he'd massacre it.

Maybe he'll do Three Houses when that comes out. He's never covered a Fire Emblem game before
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Azardea posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's nothing self imposed about it beyond your decision to pick classic in the first place.

Nothing implies that you aren't supposed to reset. Nothing. Otherwise, show us your proof. Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

Shadow Dragon
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Tyranthraxus posted...

How are you punished for suicide tactics if you just reset and try again if your suicide tactics don't work?

Suicide tactics doesn't mean "low probability of working", it means that you succeed because you sacrifice people.
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@endgame
@emagdnE
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Anteaterking posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

How are you punished for suicide tactics if you just reset and try again if your suicide tactics don't work?

Suicide tactics doesn't mean "low probability of working", it means that you succeed because you sacrifice people.

Isn't the punishment also just not proceeding vs an xp penalty? They're different kinds of punishments entirely even if you buy the framing
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Azardea posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's nothing self imposed about it beyond your decision to pick classic in the first place.

Nothing implies that you aren't supposed to reset. Nothing. Otherwise, show us your proof. Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

Shadow Dragon

Literally giving you more content for either intentionally killing off your guys or being bad at the game. That's an absolutely terrible design choice.

Doesn't prove anything about not being supposed to reset.
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Balrog0 posted...

Anteaterking posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

How are you punished for suicide tactics if you just reset and try again if your suicide tactics don't work?

Suicide tactics doesn't mean "low probability of working", it means that you succeed because you sacrifice people.

Isn't the punishment also just not proceeding vs an xp penalty? They're different kinds of punishments entirely even if you buy the framing

At least until the units die on that map, they keep all xp gained. Suicide tactics are more for against bosses on the map. They often carry higher stats and knocking some of their health down at the cost of a unit is a pretty good trade off.

Also Casual Mode doesn't really punish bad tactics. Sure it's possible to lose if you let the Lord of the game die, but send out a unit and it dies because you positioned the unit badly, no problem on casual mode.

Casual Mode is objectively far less punishing and easier than Classic Mode. The only people who argue otherwise are casual players who want to feel superior for their choice to play on the easier difficulty.
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The perma death adds stress to the battles, which can be a positive or negative depending on the person, but the fact that there is no incentive to play with dead characters is the biggest problem. There is no positive you can get out of it unless you're just playing with the notion of never restarting no matter who you lose. If they added different branches or scenarios depending on who lived, that might be more interesting, but who wants to go through a 15-30 hour game gimped the whole time.

ohnoitschris posted...

Fire Emblem games are just too much trouble to play when you have to either reset the game or continue on with a gimped party every time you make a mistake

Also the 3DS games are too much in the realm of dating sims. I couldn't get into Awakening because I got sick of playing matchmaker and clicking through all the dialog just to level up my character's affection towards each other so I could actually get through upcoming battles without being heavily underpowered. And there was some point out of the blue where the healer girl and Chrom fell in love and decided to get married? Like is this an army or is this Facebook?

And then later on I killed Tharja thinking she was a villain, and later found out she can not only join you but is pretty powerful, and I had already saved, soooooooooo I had to restart and delete a 7-hour save. Then I played another hour in and just couldn't take going through the game a second time so I shelved it

I really wish they'd make a new Advance Wars game.

Try Echoes. I've avoided Fates and Awakening purely because I had enough of stressing about eugenics after my Genealogy of the Holy War playthrough, so I found Echoes to be a much needed return to basics. Not the best story in the world, but it's a well told story. And none of the recruitable characters are recruited during battle, so unless you do something really dumb like killing Grieth before visiting the Mountain Village or engaging in a story battle that includes Zeke without rescuing Tatiana first then there's literally zero chance of missing a recruitable unit.
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Balrog0 posted...

Isn't the punishment also just not proceeding vs an xp penalty? They're different kinds of punishments entirely even if you buy the framing

I think he was trying to equate "suicide tactic" with doing something that endangers your characters, but hey you get to reset so no biggie!

Which is misrepresenting the situation.
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I'll never get into Fire Emblem cause it sounds like I have to play shipper with the guy and girl units. And shipping is cancer.
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Spidey5 posted...

I'll never get into Fire Emblem cause it sounds like I have to play shipper with the guy and girl units. And shipping is cancer.

It's absolutely not required.
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Also I haven't played since the GBA games, but plenty of supports are like..."Hey it's nice being your friend" and stuff. They aren't all romantically oriented.

Like supports will often build between people who you might as well have fighting adjacent to each other anyway.
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Azardea posted...

Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

The fact that they can die, that's pretty fucking obvious.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Azardea posted...

Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

The fact that they can die, that's pretty fucking obvious.

I don't think that makes it obvious at all.

Choosing to live with the death or repeating the level (or use a limited save state) to try again seems like a decision the developers intended for you to have. Otherwise they could simply force the game to save when someone in your party dies.
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dave_is_slick posted...

The fact that they can die, that's pretty f***ing obvious.

This is a dumb take.
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Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Azardea posted...

Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

The fact that they can die, that's pretty fucking obvious.

I don't think that makes it obvious at all.

Choosing to live with the death or repeating the level (or use a limited save state) to try again seems like a decision the developers intended for you to have. Otherwise they could simply force the game to save when someone in your party dies.

So why even make that mode in the first place.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Azardea posted...

Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

The fact that they can die, that's pretty fucking obvious.

I don't think that makes it obvious at all.

Choosing to live with the death or repeating the level (or use a limited save state) to try again seems like a decision the developers intended for you to have. Otherwise they could simply force the game to save when someone in your party dies.

So why even make that mode in the first place.

That was how the original games were. Casual mode only got added since Awakening, because they wanted to try to get a broader audience.
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To make Classic more appealing developers should add extra characters and chapters that get unlocked if your earlier characters die. All the GBA Fire Emblems had replacement cavaliers, etc. who were functionally similar to those you started out with, but Shadow Dragon took it a step further by having additional Gaiden chapters if too many people died. I think thats a great way to incentivize Classic playthroughs.
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A Novel Idea posted...

To make Classic more appealing developers should add extra characters and chapters that get unlocked if your earlier characters die. All the GBA Fire Emblems had replacement cavaliers, etc. who were functionally similar to those you started out with, but Shadow Dragon took it a step further by having additional Gaiden chapters if too many people died. I think thats a great way to incentivize Classic playthroughs.

It also kinda helps that Shadow Dragon had a bunch of actually irredeemably bad units in the roster (wtf are you gonna do with that 10% speed growth Roshea?!). So if anything there really isn't a particularly good reason NOT to kill off units for the Gaiden chapters.
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Kircheis posted...

A Novel Idea posted...

To make Classic more appealing developers should add extra characters and chapters that get unlocked if your earlier characters die. All the GBA Fire Emblems had replacement cavaliers, etc. who were functionally similar to those you started out with, but Shadow Dragon took it a step further by having additional Gaiden chapters if too many people died. I think thats a great way to incentivize Classic playthroughs.

It also kinda helps that Shadow Dragon had a bunch of actually irredeemably bad units in the roster (wtf are you gonna do with that 10% speed growth Roshea?!). So if anything there really isn't a particularly good reason NOT to kill off units for the Gaiden chapters.

Yeah, not only does basically every character in that game have no characterization, most of them are straight garbage.
Like, hmm, there are 6! characters with 10% speed growth(at least in their base classes).
Dorcas and Wallace, from 7, both infamously slow characters, have literally double that.

But, then, you could make several topics about the many ways in which Shadow Dragon is bad.

Tmaster148 posted...

That was how the original games were. Casual mode only got added since Awakening, because they wanted to try to get a broader audience.

Apparently making a mode with permadeath somehow means they did intend for you to reset so I ask again, what's the point of making that mode?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

That was how the original games were. Casual mode only got added since Awakening, because they wanted to try to get a broader audience.

Apparently making a mode with permadeath somehow means they did intend for you to reset so I ask again, what's the point of making that mode?

Well no one is forcing you to reset and losing characters can make it harder to complete later maps. It's a trade off of whether you think losing this one character here and finishing the map is worth it or if you should redo the entire map.

Not sure why this concept is hard to understand.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

That was how the original games were. Casual mode only got added since Awakening, because they wanted to try to get a broader audience.

Apparently making a mode with permadeath somehow means they did intend for you to reset so I ask again, what's the point of making that mode?

Because it's still a more hardcore mode regardless. You need to go through a perfect run throughout an entire level in order to keep everyone. It also handles saves differently than Casual mode even if you disregard the difference between KO's and death.
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The point of classic is the added challenge of getting through a map with everyone still alive, its irrelevant if they just reset it a unit dies. Playing on casual puts the challenge and risk factor to basically nil.

dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

That was how the original games were. Casual mode only got added since Awakening, because they wanted to try to get a broader audience.

Apparently making a mode with permadeath somehow means they did intend for you to reset so I ask again, what's the point of making that mode?

Resetting is so that you can figure out the strategy to survive the map with no deaths. You know, strategy, in a SRPG

Azardea posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Azardea posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's nothing self imposed about it beyond your decision to pick classic in the first place.

Nothing implies that you aren't supposed to reset. Nothing. Otherwise, show us your proof. Show us that the devs intend for us to not reset.

Shadow Dragon

Literally giving you more content for either intentionally killing off your guys or being bad at the game. That's an absolutely terrible design choice.

Doesn't prove anything about not being supposed to reset.

Thank you. Someone actually did point this out, huzzah.

The replacement character system is not a bad thing by itself, actually. It's actually a novel way to get players who are bad at the game through by providing them with faceless mooks who nobody will miss even if they die.

The big problem is that the game decided to reward you if you killed your characters off enough to see these replacement characters, going directly against what the game's protagonist kept talking about. You have to spend time, effort, deployment slots and potential XP just continuously throwing your guys into the meat grinder, and to get those rewards you even have to throw all the replacement guys in it as well since they'll bring your character total over the limit.

It's a bad way to design a game. It's like, if in a Mario game, you get to unlock a secret level if you empty your inventory field and then jump into a pit on purpose to Game Over five times, repeat once per each world for one level each. What kind of drugs were they on when they thought of that, seriously

A Novel Idea posted...

To make Classic more appealing developers should add extra characters and chapters that get unlocked if your earlier characters die. All the GBA Fire Emblems had replacement cavaliers, etc. who were functionally similar to those you started out with, but Shadow Dragon took it a step further by having additional Gaiden chapters if too many people died. I think thats a great way to incentivize Classic playthroughs.

Extra content from certain characters being dead is actually a good idea, and surprise, it's not an alien concept to Fire Emblem, though I admit it's rare. Certain characters being dead unlocks equivalent/similar replacements with different gear, and as different characters they have their own conversations and plot tidbits.

However, these 'reward's shouldn't go beyond just handing out replacements and extra plot/conversations. Actually, they shouldn't be 'reward's at all, just 'alternate' stuff. Besides the aforementioned replacements and plot differences, absolutely nothing gained this way should be rendered inaccessible to a player who is playing through optimally yet doesn't know of these secrets. They should be aids to help beginners out of holes they got themselves into, not 'rewards' per se.

Kircheis posted...

It also kinda helps that Shadow Dragon had a bunch of actually irredeemably bad units in the roster (wtf are you gonna do with that 10% speed growth Roshea?!). So if anything there really isn't a particularly good reason NOT to kill off units for the Gaiden chapters.

Actually, there is. You can't just kill your characters off by flipping kill-switches on the battle preparation menu. No, you have to invest your own deployment slots to send these guys out just for the purpose to kill them off.

What happened to just letting them sit on the bench forgotten? That worked, didn't it? Why such a counterintuitive unlock method nobody would figure out by themselves? Which restricts player freedom, to boot?

No wonder the devs got rid of the feature in later installments, even they realized it was a failure. And no wonder that Shadow Dragon hacks which eliminated that Gaiden requirement float around on the 'Net.
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Dingydang166 posted...

Can you imagine actually playing Fire Emblem on casual mode? looooooooooooooooooooooool

Yeah because I enjoy playing a game without resetting it every single level

Completion posted...

Dingydang166 posted...

Can you imagine actually playing Fire Emblem on casual mode? looooooooooooooooooooooool

Yeah because I enjoy playing a game without resetting it every single level

Which is fine if you do.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

It's a bad way to design a game. It's like, if in a Mario game, you get to unlock a secret level if you empty your inventory field and then jump into a pit on purpose to Game Over five times, repeat once per each world for one level each. What kind of drugs were they on when they thought of that, seriously

Because you're fucking supposed to win, not die. If you do die, however, it changes how you have to play the rest of the game. In Mario 3D land and world of you keep jumping off the edge, you get a permanent invincibility item. That's not because they WANT you to repeatedly suicide, but if you die a lot they give you a little extra to help you through it.

Fire Emblem penalizes you further instead of rewarding you, making the rest of the game harder.

By resetting every time a unit dies you're not playing a game fundamentally different from casual. It's just casual again + extra time wasted on resets.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Distant_Rainbow posted...

It's a bad way to design a game. It's like, if in a Mario game, you get to unlock a secret level if you empty your inventory field and then jump into a pit on purpose to Game Over five times, repeat once per each world for one level each. What kind of drugs were they on when they thought of that, seriously

Because you're fucking supposed to win, not die. If you do die, however, it changes how you have to play the rest of the game. In Mario 3D land and world of you keep jumping off the edge, you get a permanent invincibility item. That's not because they WANT you to repeatedly suicide, but if you die a lot they give you a little extra to help you through it.

Fire Emblem penalizes you further instead of rewarding you, making the rest of the game harder.

By resetting every time a unit dies you're not playing a game fundamentally different from casual. It's just casual again + extra time wasted on resets.

You better never reload an earlier save in any game. Would be pretty hypocritical of you.
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Lairen posted...

The game should delete and make you rebuy. So hardcore.

The game should punch you in the gut everytime you start it
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Tmaster148 posted...

You better never reload an earlier save in any game. Would be pretty hypocritical of you.

I debunked this argument when you made it an hour ago
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

You better never reload an earlier save in any game. Would be pretty hypocritical of you.

I debunked this argument when you made it an hour ago

All resetting is, is loading an earlier save. If you have a problem with people with resetting in a FE game it must also mean that you have a problem with people loading earlier saves in games.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

You better never reload an earlier save in any game. Would be pretty hypocritical of you.

I debunked this argument when you made it an hour ago

All resetting is, is loading an earlier save. If you have a problem with people with resetting in a FE game it must also mean that you have a problem with people loading earlier saves in games.

Holy strawman, Batman
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Tyranthraxus posted...

By resetting every time a unit dies you're not playing a game fundamentally different from casual. It's just casual again + extra time wasted on resets.

Yes you are because you can reload whenever you want on Casual.
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Darmik posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

By resetting every time a unit dies you're not playing a game fundamentally different from casual. It's just casual again + extra time wasted on resets.

Yes you are because you can reload whenever you want on Casual.

Yep. Same as classic.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

You better never reload an earlier save in any game. Would be pretty hypocritical of you.

I debunked this argument when you made it an hour ago

All resetting is, is loading an earlier save. If you have a problem with people with resetting in a FE game it must also mean that you have a problem with people loading earlier saves in games.

Holy strawman, Batman

Not my fault you haven't been able to grasp the things said to you in this topic.
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