Current Events > it costs less to house the homeless than to leave than homeless but we dont talk

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Balrog0 10/30/18 5:47:13 PM #1:	about that much. Seems like it should be a bigger deal imo. Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive I don't find that argument very compelling personally, but a lot of people seem to OTOH I rarely hear about the fact that a full-accounting of the benefits of just sheltering a person outweigh the costs of leaving them on the street. That seems a lot more compelling to me from a 'capitalism is broke' angle anyway I was just thinkin about it because I had a meeting with a homeless advocacy group today, don't mind me --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911474999] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>about that much. Seems like it should be a bigger deal imo. Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive I don't find that argument very compelling personally, but a lot of people seem to OTOH I rarely hear about the fact that a full-accounting of the benefits of just sheltering a person outweigh the costs of leaving them on the street. That seems a lot more compelling to me from a 'capitalism is broke' angle anyway I was just thinkin about it because I had a meeting with a homeless advocacy group today, don't mind me</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
catboy0_0 10/30/18 5:48:23 PM #2:	Balrog0 posted... anyway I was just thinkin about it because I had a meeting with a homeless advocacy group today, don't mind me keep on doing what you do, partner --- I obviously like you at least a little to even talk to you -cornman one day I hope to post a message so great it ends up in someones sig -Two_Dee <cite>catboy0_0 posted [p:911475071] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>anyway I was just thinkin about it because I had a meeting with a homeless advocacy group today, don't mind me</quote> keep on doing what you do, partner</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
marthsheretoo 10/30/18 5:48:59 PM #3:	Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work. --- "Even MarthKoopa has jumped on the MarthKoopa hate wagon." -DevsBro <cite>marthsheretoo posted [p:911475107] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TiamatLover 10/30/18 5:50:32 PM #4:	marthsheretoo posted... Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. Key words, "current system". A fully private system works well; a fully public system works well. This unholy hybrid the US has gone for is the problem. --- https://imgtc.com/i/0mboxsZ.png ^ Tiamat is best babe, if you disagree you're objectively wrong. <cite>TiamatLover posted [p:911475197] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>marthsheretoo posted...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more.</quote> Key words, "current system". A fully private system works well; a fully public system works well. This unholy hybrid the US has gone for is the problem.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ArchiePeck 10/30/18 5:50:36 PM #5:	marthsheretoo posted... Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. But every other first world country in the world has turned communist because of it! <cite>ArchiePeck posted [p:911475202] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>marthsheretoo posted...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more.</quote> But every other first world country in the world has turned communist because of it!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
P4wn4g3 10/30/18 5:53:53 PM #6:	Good luck convincing the Republicans, they can't get basic economic principles down. --- 7D ChessMaster of Dark Aether https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/851-dark-aether <cite>P4wn4g3 posted [p:911475406] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Good luck convincing the Republicans, they can't get basic economic principles down.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Unsugarized_Foo 10/30/18 5:56:08 PM #7:	If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car --- "All I have is my balls and my word, and I don't break them for anyone!"-Tony Montana <cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted [p:911475534] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tmaster148 10/30/18 5:56:55 PM #8:	The first problem is thinking our current elected officials care about wasteful spending. --- https://imgur.com/BBcZDLJ <cite>Tmaster148 posted [p:911475585] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>The first problem is thinking our current elected officials care about wasteful spending.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Blue_Dream87 10/30/18 6:10:52 PM #9:	Unsugarized_Foo posted... If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit. --- <cite>Blue_Dream87 posted [p:911476425] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted...</cite> <quote>If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car</quote> lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ImTheMacheteGuy 10/30/18 7:14:56 PM #10:	marthsheretoo posted... Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work. Well, premiums are legitimate payments for legitimate services, while taxes are theft. I'd rather pay a figurative arm and leg for legitimate services than have a figurative finger sToLeN fRoM mE bY tHe GoVeRnMeNt! --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ <cite>ImTheMacheteGuy posted [p:911480136] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>marthsheretoo posted...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work.</quote> Well, premiums are legitimate payments for legitimate services, while taxes are theft. I'd rather pay a figurative arm and leg for legitimate services than have a figurative finger sToLeN fRoM mE bY tHe GoVeRnMeNt!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SH_expert44 10/30/18 7:25:14 PM #11:	Just think, if we used all the money spent of pride rallies and hate rallies on housing and feeding the homeless, there would be no more homeless. Maybe hate groups and pride groups can come together and fix the world. --- It's thinking... PSN: REexpert44 <cite>SH_expert44 posted [p:911480768] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Just think, if we used all the money spent of pride rallies and hate rallies on housing and feeding the homeless, there would be no more homeless. Maybe hate groups and pride groups can come together and fix the world.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 10/30/18 7:49:39 PM #12:	TiamatLover posted... A fully private system works well; Gonna need some evidence for that --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:911482096] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>TiamatLover posted...</cite> <quote>A fully private system works well;</quote> Gonna need some evidence for that</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SauI_Goodman 10/30/18 7:53:19 PM #14:	If they get free housing and free food I want in on the action. --- Currently playing: Monster Hunter World (xbone), H1Z1 (ps4), Castlevania 4 (snes), Spiderman (ps4) <cite>SauI_Goodman posted [p:911482304] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>If they get free housing and free food I want in on the action.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Unsugarized_Foo 10/30/18 7:53:54 PM #15:	Blue_Dream87 posted... Unsugarized_Foo posted... If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit. Maybe once LA has their plauge that's occuring with their homeless and spreading, they'll do something. Their shit teir government is failing them --- "All I have is my balls and my word, and I don't break them for anyone!"-Tony Montana <cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted [p:911482344] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Blue_Dream87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted...</cite> <quote>If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car</quote> lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit.</quote> Maybe once LA has their plauge that's occuring with their homeless and spreading, they'll do something. Their shit teir government is failing them</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
A_Good_Boy 10/30/18 7:58:00 PM #16:	SauI_Goodman posted... If they get free housing and free food I want in on the action. Neets should also get in on the action while the gettings good. --- Who is? I am! <cite>A_Good_Boy posted [p:911482570] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>SauI_Goodman posted...</cite> <quote>If they get free housing and free food I want in on the action.</quote> Neets should also get in on the action while the gettings good.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
southcoast09 10/30/18 7:59:34 PM #17:	I dont know if youve checked rent rates any time recently, but it is most certainly not cheaper to house them than not to. In my opinion, we shouldnt be spending any money. --- #MakeFinalFantasyGreatAgain <cite>southcoast09 posted [p:911482655] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>I dont know if youve checked rent rates any time recently, but it is most certainly not cheaper to house them than not to. In my opinion, we shouldnt be spending any money.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Crazyman93 10/30/18 8:01:38 PM #18:	than to leave than homeless I... Did you have a stroke writing this? --- let's lubricate friction material! ~nickels, Cars & Trucks <cite>Crazyman93 posted [p:911482778] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><quote> than to leave than homeless </quote> I... Did you have a stroke writing this?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/30/18 8:54:17 PM #19:	Crazyman93 posted... than to leave than homeless I... Did you have a stroke writing this? Just a simple typo, I think it's easy to figure out through context clues thankfully. southcoast09 posted... I dont know if youve checked rent rates any time recently, but it is most certainly not cheaper to house them than not to. In my opinion, we shouldnt be spending any money. The primary channel through which governments realize cost savings is through a reduction in ER usage and inpatient hospital stays. The other, smaller but still significant saving, is through reduced incarceration rates. Both jails and hospitals rely on blending revenue streams from different sources, though, which is why it's hard to actually demonstrate cost savings in practice even if you can achieve them. These different systems don't even necessarily communicate at all, much less to track the people utilizing their services - and even if they did, it's not immediately profitable to either jails or hospitals to advocate for funding a totally separate, third supportive system (housing and usually counseling services). The rent thing is hardly meaningful in these calculations. It's not zero, but it's swamped by these other costs even in high housing cost markets -- it's really hard to achieve the kind of costs in land acquisition and construction that you save on the other end by reducing ER usage. The hourly costs between an apartment and a hospital room are not even comparable obviously --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911485930] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Crazyman93 posted...</cite> <quote><quote> than to leave than homeless </quote> I... Did you have a stroke writing this?</quote> Just a simple typo, I think it's easy to figure out through context clues thankfully. <cite>southcoast09 posted...</cite> <quote>I dont know if youve checked rent rates any time recently, but it is most certainly not cheaper to house them than not to. In my opinion, we shouldnt be spending any money.</quote> The primary channel through which governments realize cost savings is through a reduction in ER usage and inpatient hospital stays. The other, smaller but still significant saving, is through reduced incarceration rates. Both jails and hospitals rely on blending revenue streams from different sources, though, which is why it's hard to actually demonstrate cost savings in practice even if you can achieve them. These different systems don't even necessarily communicate at all, much less to track the people utilizing their services - and even if they did, it's not immediately profitable to either jails or hospitals to advocate for funding a totally separate, third supportive system (housing and usually counseling services). The rent thing is hardly meaningful in these calculations. It's not zero, but it's swamped by these other costs even in high housing cost markets -- it's really hard to achieve the kind of costs in land acquisition and construction that you save on the other end by reducing ER usage. The hourly costs between an apartment and a hospital room are not even comparable obviously</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
deupd_u 10/30/18 8:56:42 PM #20:	Balrog0 posted... Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive Yeah, let me just build a gosh darn house and give it away for some reason --- Snipers don't shoot at paper, they shoot watermelons. https://imgur.com/jo511lG <cite>deupd_u posted [p:911486077] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive</quote> Yeah, let me just build a gosh darn house and give it away for some reason</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Houston 10/30/18 9:09:11 PM #21:	marthsheretoo posted... Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work. Through my employer, my insurance is about as good as you can get, and I pay less than $100 per month. What is my incentive to likely pay much more in taxes for "free healthcare" and mostly have access to doctors I'm told I can have access to? And then be put on a waiting list for a surgery or procedure? --- Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin' <cite>Houston posted [p:911486762] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>marthsheretoo posted...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work.</quote> Through my employer, my insurance is about as good as you can get, and I pay less than $100 per month. What is my incentive to likely pay much more in taxes for "free healthcare" and mostly have access to doctors I'm told I can have access to? And then be put on a waiting list for a surgery or procedure?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Blue_Dream87 10/31/18 12:22:47 PM #22:	Unsugarized_Foo posted... Blue_Dream87 posted... Unsugarized_Foo posted... If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit. Maybe once LA has their plauge that's occuring with their homeless and spreading, they'll do something. Their shit teir government is failing them Dude California needs to do something period, shit sucks down in San Diego and the bay. Good thing we can vote this year on forcing them to do something --- <cite>Blue_Dream87 posted [p:911520608] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Blue_Dream87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Unsugarized_Foo posted...</cite> <quote>If only there was a place that could house these people and provide services that can reestablish people that can be helped and keep the helpless away from my car</quote> lol you gotta twist some arms to convince a city to fund that shit.</quote> Maybe once LA has their plauge that's occuring with their homeless and spreading, they'll do something. Their shit teir government is failing them</quote> Dude California needs to do something period, shit sucks down in San Diego and the bay. Good thing we can vote this year on forcing them to do something</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Space_Man 10/31/18 12:23:35 PM #23:	We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration --- There sure are a lot of different mes just like you have a lot of different yous! I'm going outside to play now I hope all the different yous have fun too. Bye! <cite>Space_Man posted [p:911520645] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AABLMD82 10/31/18 12:55:05 PM #24:	Houston posted... marthsheretoo posted... Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work. Through my employer, my insurance is about as good as you can get, and I pay less than $100 per month. What is my incentive to likely pay much more in taxes for "free healthcare" and mostly have access to doctors I'm told I can have access to? And then be put on a waiting list for a surgery or procedure? So that other (less fortunate) people can also get the same benefits. --- What ever happened to Mad Stalker? <cite>AABLMD82 posted [p:911522468] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Houston posted...</cite> <quote><cite>marthsheretoo posted...</cite> <quote>Universal healthcare is more efficient than out current system but a significant portion of the country would rather pay premiums than taxes even if it costs them more. I've given up trying to understand how somw peoples' minds work.</quote> Through my employer, my insurance is about as good as you can get, and I pay less than $100 per month. What is my incentive to likely pay much more in taxes for "free healthcare" and mostly have access to doctors I'm told I can have access to? And then be put on a waiting list for a surgery or procedure?</quote> So that other (less fortunate) people can also get the same benefits.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AABLMD82 10/31/18 12:57:07 PM #25:	Space_Man posted... We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration Solar panel prices have rose in the US and iirc its illegal to collect rain water ( _)7 --- What ever happened to Mad Stalker? <cite>AABLMD82 posted [p:911522596] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Space_Man posted...</cite> <quote>We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration</quote> Solar panel prices have rose in the US and iirc its illegal to collect rain water ( _)7</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 10/31/18 12:59:27 PM #26:	deupd_u posted... Balrog0 posted... Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive Yeah, let me just build a gosh darn house and give it away for some reason generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:911522710] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>deupd_u posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I often hear that one example of the failure of capitalism is that we have lots of empty houses and apartments and also lots of homeless people and that is bad because they could live in those homes if not for the profit motive</quote> Yeah, let me just build a gosh darn house and give it away for some reason</quote> generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 12:59:55 PM #27:	averagejoel posted... generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners there's plenty of blame to go around --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911522738] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners</quote> there's plenty of blame to go around</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Musourenka 10/31/18 1:02:02 PM #28:	Society still views housing as a luxury instead of a need. You do save money overall for housing homeless people versus leaving them on the streets, but I still think the view of "they don't deserve housing" is what is really keeping us from solving homelessness. --- Shooing away pigeons crapping on debate tables is not a violation of the pigeons' free speech. <cite>Musourenka posted [p:911522845] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Society still views housing as a luxury instead of a need. You do save money overall for housing homeless people versus leaving them on the streets, but I still think the view of "they don't deserve housing" is what is really keeping us from solving homelessness.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 10/31/18 1:03:15 PM #29:	Balrog0 posted... averagejoel posted... generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners there's plenty of blame to go around true --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:911522905] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>generally speaking, the problem is with landlords, not homeowners</quote> there's plenty of blame to go around</quote> true</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Nomadic View 10/31/18 1:05:02 PM #30:	I dont see how providing housing will keep them out of jail and the ER. I can see it being economically viable if thats true, but those things arent exclusive. People that live in houses go to jail and the ER all the time. --- {}\\{}(o){}\\//{}//=\\{})){}(< \\//{}{{-{}//\\{} {}xxxxxxxx{};;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;> <cite>Nomadic View posted [p:911523006] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>I dont see how providing housing will keep them out of jail and the ER. I can see it being economically viable if thats true, but those things arent exclusive. People that live in houses go to jail and the ER all the time.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
The Admiral 10/31/18 1:10:05 PM #31:	The problem for many homeless people in the U.S. isn't the lack of a home, it's they have a serious mental illness that isn't being treated. This is the case for over 1/3 of homeless people: http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/fixing-the-system/features-and-news/2596-how-many-people-with-serious-mental-illness-are-homeless Giving houses to those folks is not productive, and it may actually pose a public safety issue if they start a fire in their apartment or something. Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism, and I don't understand the point in the OP at all. Capitalism does not hold that if there is unfulfilled demand and supply, the supplier should offer the good for free. I do agree that the government should take actions to prevent a small group of individuals from monopolizing the housing supply, but the solution is not free housing for the homeless. --- - The Admiral <cite>The Admiral posted [p:911523265] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>The problem for many homeless people in the U.S. isn't the lack of a home, it's they have a serious mental illness that isn't being treated. This is the case for over 1/3 of homeless people: http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/fixing-the-system/features-and-news/2596-how-many-people-with-serious-mental-illness-are-homeless Giving houses to those folks is not productive, and it may actually pose a public safety issue if they start a fire in their apartment or something. Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism, and I don't understand the point in the OP at all. Capitalism does not hold that if there is unfulfilled demand and supply, the supplier should offer the good for free. I do agree that the government should take actions to prevent a small group of individuals from monopolizing the housing supply, but the solution is not free housing for the homeless.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:13:08 PM #32:	The Admiral posted... The problem for many homeless people in the U.S. isn't the lack of a home, it's they have a serious mental illness that isn't being treated. This is the case for over 1/3 of homeless people: yep, to realize cost savings you need to invest in counseling services as well as housing like I said The Admiral posted... Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism, and I don't understand the point in the OP at all. I'm saying that people say capitalism is inefficient because there are homeless people and also empty houses. I don't think that's a good argument, because there are lots of reasons a house would be empty but people would be homeless. There is no good reason to leave the homeless on the street from a public finance perspective, though, so if you're operating under the assumption that we live in a capitalist system that allocates resources effectively, then that is a bad sign for capitalism. You can disagree with that or whatever, I don't really care, my point is that lots of people do buy into that logic but do not cite this example. --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911523436] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>The problem for many homeless people in the U.S. isn't the lack of a home, it's they have a serious mental illness that isn't being treated. This is the case for over 1/3 of homeless people: </quote> yep, to realize cost savings you need to invest in counseling services as well as housing like I said <cite>The Admiral posted...</cite> <quote>Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism, and I don't understand the point in the OP at all. </quote> I'm saying that people say capitalism is inefficient because there are homeless people and also empty houses. I don't think that's a good argument, because there are lots of reasons a house would be empty but people would be homeless. There is no good reason to leave the homeless on the street from a public finance perspective, though, so if you're operating under the assumption that we live in a capitalist system that allocates resources effectively, then that is a bad sign for capitalism. You can disagree with that or whatever, I don't really care, my point is that lots of people do buy into that logic but do not cite this example.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:14:55 PM #33:	as far as monopolizing the housing supply, I don't understand how we have a housing monopoly. not only are there plenty of individual home owners, there are plenty of different development and realty companies what small group of individuals are you referring to? edit -- I checked and about 2/3 of occupied housing units are occupied by the owner, FWIW --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911523532] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>as far as monopolizing the housing supply, I don't understand how we have a housing monopoly. not only are there plenty of individual home owners, there are plenty of different development and realty companies what small group of individuals are you referring to? edit -- I checked and about 2/3 of occupied housing units are occupied by the owner, FWIW</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Space_Man 10/31/18 1:46:34 PM #34:	AABLMD82 posted... Space_Man posted... We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration Solar panel prices have rose in the US and iirc its illegal to collect rain water ( _)7 So if I happen to have a man-made well supplying my house with water in my backyard with a complex filtration system that just happens to catch rain water to fill said well then I'm breaking the law? Purely hypothetical, of course. --- There sure are a lot of different mes just like you have a lot of different yous! I'm going outside to play now I hope all the different yous have fun too. Bye! <cite>Space_Man posted [p:911525411] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>AABLMD82 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Space_Man posted...</cite> <quote>We should 3d print solar homes that have built in rain collection and water filtration</quote> Solar panel prices have rose in the US and iirc its illegal to collect rain water ( _)7</quote> So if I happen to have a man-made well supplying my house with water in my backyard with a complex filtration system that just happens to catch rain water to fill said well then I'm breaking the law? Purely hypothetical, of course.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AlephZero 10/31/18 1:51:33 PM #35:	Utah has been housing the homeless for years with a large amount of success. I don't see something similar happening in places like the Bay Area because it's impossible to build anything other than luxury condos there. --- "life is overrated" - Seiichi Omori 01001100 01010101 01000101 00100000 00110100 00110000 00110010 <cite>AlephZero posted [p:911525678] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Utah has been housing the homeless for years with a large amount of success. I don't see something similar happening in places like the Bay Area because it's impossible to build anything other than luxury condos there.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:53:00 PM #36:	AlephZero posted... Utah has been housing the homeless for years with a large amount of success. I don't see something similar happening in places like the Bay Area because it's impossible to build anything other than luxury condos there. indeed, Utah and New Mexico both have programs that are doing this well. https://www.rstreet.org/2018/10/25/increasing-citations-and-fines-are-not-the-answers-to-homelessness/ One reform, Utahs Housing First program, played a major role in decreasing its chronically homeless population. Unlike other models that require sobriety, Utahs program moves homeless individuals directly into housing and seeks to provide stability for addressing other issues. The states Homeless Task Force reported that the $7,800 it cost to house and provide a caseworker for one person was far cheaper than the average $19,208 per year the state pays to take care of a chronically homeless person. Far from an anomaly, the Department of Housing and Urban Development was able to reduce the homeless veteran population by 54% using the housing-first model. And after only one year of its housing program, the city of Albuquerque saved over $600,000 and saw a 64% reduction in related jail costs. Another way to ease pressures on homeless individuals is for regions to allow for more housing in cheaper, traditional archetypes. California has been a leader in requiring municipalities to allow small accessory dwelling units in residential areas. Places like New York allow boarding houses, while trailer parks have been a next step for the rural homeless for generations. Meanwhile, Ramsey County, Minnesotas Police-Homelessness Outreach Program uses social workers within police stations to connect homeless clients with services. Similar to Denvers recovery court, this program connects homeless individuals with resources to address issues with employment and addiction. --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911525750] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>AlephZero posted...</cite> <quote>Utah has been housing the homeless for years with a large amount of success. I don't see something similar happening in places like the Bay Area because it's impossible to build anything other than luxury condos there.</quote> indeed, Utah and New Mexico both have programs that are doing this well. https://www.rstreet.org/2018/10/25/increasing-citations-and-fines-are-not-the-answers-to-homelessness/ One reform, Utahs Housing First program, played a major role in decreasing its chronically homeless population. Unlike other models that require sobriety, Utahs program moves homeless individuals directly into housing and seeks to provide stability for addressing other issues. The states Homeless Task Force reported that the $7,800 it cost to house and provide a caseworker for one person was far cheaper than the average $19,208 per year the state pays to take care of a chronically homeless person. Far from an anomaly, the Department of Housing and Urban Development was able to reduce the homeless veteran population by 54% using the housing-first model. And after only one year of its housing program, the city of Albuquerque saved over $600,000 and saw a 64% reduction in related jail costs. Another way to ease pressures on homeless individuals is for regions to allow for more housing in cheaper, traditional archetypes. California has been a leader in requiring municipalities to allow small accessory dwelling units in residential areas. Places like New York allow boarding houses, while trailer parks have been a next step for the rural homeless for generations. Meanwhile, Ramsey County, Minnesotas Police-Homelessness Outreach Program uses social workers within police stations to connect homeless clients with services. Similar to Denvers recovery court, this program connects homeless individuals with resources to address issues with employment and addiction.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:53:21 PM #37:	not that it should matter but r street is a center right organization for anyone that cares about that kind of thing --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911525780] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>not that it should matter but r street is a center right organization for anyone that cares about that kind of thing</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
do_ob_tpkillr 10/31/18 1:54:25 PM #38:	Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine? They don't deserve anything that they didn't work and pay for. <cite>do_ob_tpkillr posted [p:911525829] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine? They don't deserve anything that they didn't work and pay for.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:54:56 PM #39:	do_ob_tpkillr posted... Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine? other than basic caring of other human beings, because it represents a smaller tax burden for you than the alternative --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911525862] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>do_ob_tpkillr posted...</cite> <quote>Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine?</quote> other than basic caring of other human beings, because it represents a smaller tax burden for you than the alternative</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 10/31/18 1:55:10 PM #40:	do_ob_tpkillr posted... Why should they be able to get free s* when I have to pay through my nose for mine? because they already get other free things that cost more, as a result of the basic humanity built in to our society --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:911525871] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>do_ob_tpkillr posted...</cite> <quote>Why should they be able to get free s* when I have to pay through my nose for mine? </quote> because they already get other free things that cost more, as a result of the basic humanity built in to our society</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anarchy_Juiblex 10/31/18 1:55:49 PM #41:	"It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument. --- "Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice." ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali <cite>Anarchy_Juiblex posted [p:911525909] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>"It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 10/31/18 1:56:11 PM #42:	Anarchy_Juiblex posted... "It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument. its weird though because you have to spend money to make money is an old truism --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:911525931] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anarchy_Juiblex posted...</cite> <quote>"It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument.</quote> its weird though because you have to spend money to make money is an old truism</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 10/31/18 1:56:32 PM #43:	Anarchy_Juiblex posted... "It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument. it does when youre already spending money 'it costs less to spend money differently' is the basis of pretty much every restructuring --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:911525960] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Anarchy_Juiblex posted...</cite> <quote>"It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument.</quote> it does when youre already spending money 'it costs less to spend money differently' is the basis of pretty much every restructuring</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ComfortablySad 10/31/18 1:57:23 PM #44:	do_ob_tpkillr posted... Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine? They don't deserve anything that they didn't work and pay for. Most people (other than a few in this topic) don't like being moochers. A lot of homeless people have mental illness, addiction, or other problems that are curable or at least treatable. Once they're back on their feet they can get jobs and pay taxes like everyone else. --- Teenage angst has paid off well, now I'm bored and old. <cite>ComfortablySad posted [p:911525997] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>do_ob_tpkillr posted...</cite> <quote>Why should they be able to get free shit when I have to pay through my nose for mine? They don't deserve anything that they didn't work and pay for.</quote> Most people (other than a few in this topic) don't like being moochers. A lot of homeless people have mental illness, addiction, or other problems that are curable or at least treatable. Once they're back on their feet they can get jobs and pay taxes like everyone else.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
P4wn4g3 10/31/18 1:57:45 PM #45:	I wouldn't say NM is doing it well, considering Albuquerque is the only place actually doing anything about it. Also Abq has tons of transients, and it's not like its a city with a huge population. I think though this is mostly due to Albuquerque being in the path of a major cross country route for transients. Socorro is along that path as well and has a highly visited shelter in the country, and the town has a bunch of transients for no good reason because of it. --- 7D ChessMaster of Dark Aether https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/851-dark-aether <cite>P4wn4g3 posted [p:911526024] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>I wouldn't say NM is doing it well, considering Albuquerque is the only place actually doing anything about it. Also Abq has tons of transients, and it's not like its a city with a huge population. I think though this is mostly due to Albuquerque being in the path of a major cross country route for transients. Socorro is along that path as well and has a highly visited shelter in the country, and the town has a bunch of transients for no good reason because of it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Southernfatman 10/31/18 1:59:35 PM #46:	But how do rich people benefit giving the homeless a home? You got to think about the real victims of society here. /s (sad that this needs to be put for such obvious sarcasm, but people really think this.) It's also sad that people hate the idea of others besides themselves being helped and will be against it. --- https://imgur.com/hslUvRN When I sin I sin real good. <cite>Southernfatman posted [p:911526120] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>But how do rich people benefit giving the homeless a home? You got to think about the real victims of society here. /s (sad that this needs to be put for such obvious sarcasm, but people really think this.) It's also sad that people hate the idea of others besides themselves being helped and will be against it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Anarchy_Juiblex 10/31/18 2:00:33 PM #47:	Darkman124 posted... Anarchy_Juiblex posted... "It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument. it does when youre already spending money 'it costs less to spend money differently' is the basis of pretty much every restructuring I agree but you have to understand the minds of the people you're trying to convince. --- "Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice." ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali <cite>Anarchy_Juiblex posted [p:911526188] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Anarchy_Juiblex posted...</cite> <quote>"It costs less to spend money" usually isn't a winning argument.</quote> it does when youre already spending money 'it costs less to spend money differently' is the basis of pretty much every restructuring</quote> I agree but you have to understand the minds of the people you're trying to convince.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Rexdragon125 10/31/18 2:00:49 PM #48:	Big business: "There's 20 more chumps lined up to replace you, that's why I'm paying you the legal minimum amount!" Also big business: "There are 20 vacant houses per homeless person but I can't just sell them for cheap!" <cite>Rexdragon125 posted [p:911526205] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Big business: "There's 20 more chumps lined up to replace you, that's why I'm paying you the legal minimum amount!" Also big business: "There are 20 vacant houses per homeless person but I can't just sell them for cheap!"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsBro 10/31/18 2:07:33 PM #49:	How did you determine this, and does it account for the people who would quit their jobs without the threat of homelessness? --- 53 LIII 0b110101 p16 0x35 <cite>DevsBro posted [p:911526571] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>How did you determine this, and does it account for the people who would quit their jobs without the threat of homelessness?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Squall28 10/31/18 2:13:28 PM #50:	Share your math with us. --- If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill <cite>Squall28 posted [p:911526891] in it costs l... [t:77150089]...</cite> <quote>Share your math with us.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > it costs less to house the homeless than to leave than homeless but we dont talk (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > it costs less to house the homeless than to leave than homeless but we dont talk