Current Events > "But Americans don't want to do the same kind of work illegals will!"

(+) Yeah! (+)

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?
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Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

thus making the food you buy cheaper.

a net benefit to regular americans

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

americans complain about working at mcdonalds for the current minimum wage. do you think they'd want to do actual hard work for the same pay?

Alphamon posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

thus making the food you buy cheaper.

Imagine actually thinking this
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Americans for the most part are fat, lazy, unmotivated sheltered losers. Even the poor people here are considered rich in other countries.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

Nope. I have a few in-laws who are farmers. They wont admit if any of their workers are illegal or not, but they are pretty much 100% immigrants. They say their work ethic is way better than a regular white american. And in these manual labor jobs, an individuals production can make a huge difference. And those are some tough, back breaking labor jobs out in the farms.

I totally see that too. My dad hired some mexican guy to do some yard work. He did like 3 days worth of work in 1 day with like a 15 min lunch break. Dude was a machine.
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It's very true for migrant farm workers. It is less true for other industries, like construction.

edit: on net it's a true statement
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

This, plenty of Americans labor in factories and fields.
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Doe posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

This, plenty of Americans labor in factories and fields.

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

Today, farmworkers in the state earn about $30,000 a year if they work full time about half the overall average pay in California. Most work fewer hours.

Some farmers are even giving laborers benefits normally reserved for white-collar professionals, like 401(k) plans, health insurance, subsidized housing and profit-sharing bonuses. Full-timers at Silverado Farming, for example, get most of those sweeteners, plus 10 paid vacation days, eight paid holidays, and can earn their hourly rate to take English classes.

But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.

Instead, companies growing high-value crops, like Cabernet Sauvignon grapes in Napa, are luring employees from fields in places like Stockton that produce cheaper wine grapes or less profitable fruits and vegetables.

Growers who cant raise wages are losing their employees and dealing with it by mechanizing, downsizing or switching to less labor-intensive crops.

There's ample evidence there are jobs Americans just won't do. These are for wages near the proposed $15 an hour, too, which is far above the minimum wage in most areas.
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Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Didn't you just mention that you were one of these cycling chaps with a big ridiculous cube strapped to your back, delivering me my sushis ? And another guy in that topic pouring gasoline ?
That statement is a fabrication drummed by the big corporation lobbies through their useful tools, namely the mass media, in order to push their agenda of having more and more immigrant workforce and inducing an overall macroeconomic salary lowering.
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I'm paraphrasing some comedian but if an employer is willing to risk fines and possible jail time to hire someone who likely has no skills and can't even speak English instead of hiring you that should be a wake-up call.
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I think Americans will do them. There are a lot of Americans doing a lot of laborious, dangerous, dirty jobs with long hours.

I used to work as a Deckhand on crew boats. Those were 12 - 16 hour days loading and unloading heavy cargo on a boat a hundred miles or more offshore. Didn't matter if it was 100+ degree weather, pouring rain, or rough seas. Also a lot of time in loud engine rooms dealing with oil, grease, and diesel and heavy parts. For about $150 a day.

Whether that was more or less strenuous than field work, I couldn't say. But there are Americans who will absolutely do difficult work. You just might have to pay them more and offer more benefits than you'd have to pay illegal immigrants.

In addition, it's always weird to me when liberals try to paint illegal immigrants being such cheap labor as a good thing for America. Like, dudes, you're supposed to be the side that's pro-worker rights and conditions. Don't play apologism for substandard working conditions for illegal immigrants because you want to bolster that part of your platform. Might as well start defending sweat shops in China.
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Its not just a matter of americans doing those jobs, which btw, they won't. It's a matter of doing them productively. I can say with near certainty that if I hire an immigrant to do field work, he'll be super efficient and productive. For a non-immigrant, I'd have to closely watch.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

Yep. Look at crop harvesting. The farmers will whine that they can't find Americans to do backbreaking, seasonal work in the middle of nowhere for $10 an hour and then pay illegals to do it for less than minimum wage.
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Bruh when have Americans ever done their own crops and shit?

They went from black slaves to hispanic wage slaves.

AlephZero posted...

Yep. Look at crop harvesting. The farmers will whine that they can't find Americans to do backbreaking, seasonal work in the middle of nowhere for $10 an hour and then pay illegals to do it for less than minimum wage.

Weird, I just shared a story where people wouldn't do it even for 14.50 and the promise of making 16.00 soon

Why do people expect to get paid so much for something children can do?
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ComfortablySad posted...

I'm paraphrasing some comedian but if an employer is willing to risk fines and possible jail time to hire someone who likely has no skills and can't even speak English instead of hiring you that should be a wake-up call.

You realize comedians are willing to completely ignore counter points and facts if the joke works, right?

Also Ive heard from people who worked with illegals here say that they work way harder than Americans for the first month or two but then they tend to get Americanized and start to slow down and get lazy. Ive never seen it first hand, but Id believe it.

I saw something where some farm in Alabama lost all its workers because there was a crackdown on illegals and they all peaced out to find a safer area to live. The only other workers they could get were prison inmates and they all just fucked around all day.

Granted this was vice so not the most reliable source... still, it makes sense.
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Balrog0 posted...

AlephZero posted...

Yep. Look at crop harvesting. The farmers will whine that they can't find Americans to do backbreaking, seasonal work in the middle of nowhere for $10 an hour and then pay illegals to do it for less than minimum wage.

Weird, I just shared a story where people wouldn't do it even for 14.50 and the promise of making 16.00 soon

Why do people expect to get paid so much for something children can do?

$16 an hour is still a pretty shit wage for the working conditions. Add on that it's seasonal so you'd have to find something else to do for the rest of the year, and that unless you live nearby you're going to have a hell of a commute, and it's not something many people want to do.

It's like any other job. If you can't find people willing to do the work (legally) for the amount you're paying, you aren't paying enough.
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Esrac posted...

In addition, it's always weird to me when liberals try to paint illegal immigrants being such cheap labor as a good thing for America.

It's not just liberals.

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I saw something where some farm in Alabama lost all its workers because there was a crackdown on illegals and they all peaced out to find a safer area to live. The only other workers they could get were prison inmates and they all just fucked around all day.

Granted this was vice so not the most reliable source... still, it makes sense.

there have been various efforts by various different entities to induce americans into doing farm labor, particularly in the wake of the great recession when joblessness was high

it's not happening. look at labor force participation rates. listen to those who are sitting out and why they are sitting out. it becomes incredibly obvious why americans won't do the work if you do that.

It would be nice if we could talk about it without it being so hyperpartisan, because it's actually an interesting observation about why wages are so 'sticky.' Not directly about farm work, but very relevant to the topic:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?content=reviews&isbn=9780674009431

but basically I'd argue that immigrants and americans just have very different expectations with respect to their labor market outcomes. those who have yet to enter the labor market see no reason to do migrant farm work because there is no upward mobility. those who are currently out of work don't want to do it because it'd be a paycut compared to the coal mining job they used to do that's never coming back.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Esrac posted...

In addition, it's always weird to me when liberals try to paint illegal immigrants being such cheap labor as a good thing for America.

It's not just liberals.

I didn't say it was. I said it's weird when liberals do it.
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If a liberal can't get a job, conservatives: stop playing victim, learn to work hard, stop asking for handouts, bootstraps, etc
If conservatives can't get a job: they ask for handouts, blame immigrants, try to play the victim.
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Esrac posted...

In addition, it's always weird to me when liberals try to paint illegal immigrants being such cheap labor as a good thing for America. Like, dudes, you're supposed to be the side that's pro-worker rights and conditions. Don't play apologism for substandard working conditions for illegal immigrants because you want to bolster that part of your platform. Might as well start defending sweat shops in China.

Do you think amnesty won't solve these problems? Cause a lot of people on the left are for that.

Unknown5uspect posted...

Do you think amnesty won't solve these problems?

I'm not sure how it would.
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It's less that Americans won't do the jobs and more the want to get paid more for that job.
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Let's put it this way. If you were down on your luck and the only thing available was picking avocados for 40 hours a week at 9 dollars an hour, would you be able to do it?
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Veggeta X posted...

Let's put it this way. If you were down on your luck and the only thing available was picking avocados for 40 hours a week at 9 dollars an hour, would you be able to do it?

If I had a less than highschool education and there was absolutely no other job and the only other option was becoming homeless, then yes I would. Otherwise I'd look for any fast food or convenient store job or janitorial work or security or whatever. Plenty of jobs out there that aren't back breaking.

And what i'd do is save up enough money to get my CDL and becoming a long distance truck driver, which actually pays really well.
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Many illegals wouldn't do the work for less than minimum wage or work that hard if they couldn't live like a king on that wage when they send it back to their families on the other side.

Unknown5uspect posted...

Esrac posted...

In addition, it's always weird to me when liberals try to paint illegal immigrants being such cheap labor as a good thing for America. Like, dudes, you're supposed to be the side that's pro-worker rights and conditions. Don't play apologism for substandard working conditions for illegal immigrants because you want to bolster that part of your platform. Might as well start defending sweat shops in China.

Do you think amnesty won't solve these problems? Cause a lot of people on the left are for that.

I'm not convinced it would. They'd probably just tell the one's who demand more money and benefits to fuck off and find some who will do the work for substandard wages. Assuming they don't resort to more coercive methods.
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Yes
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AlephZero posted...

$16 an hour is still a pretty shit wage for the working conditions. Add on that it's seasonal so you'd have to find something else to do for the rest of the year, and that unless you live nearby you're going to have a hell of a commute, and it's not something many people want to do.

That's the whole question, though. If you can't get natives to work for you at $16 an hour, maybe the pay scale isn't the whole problem, but just that Americans don't want to do the work.

AlephZero posted...

It's like any other job. If you can't find people willing to do the work (legally) for the amount you're paying, you aren't paying enough.

Yeah, I agree that employers should raise wages across the board for obvious reasons.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that that is why Americans won't do migrant farm labor, though.
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Balrog0 posted...

AlephZero posted...

$16 an hour is still a pretty shit wage for the working conditions. Add on that it's seasonal so you'd have to find something else to do for the rest of the year, and that unless you live nearby you're going to have a hell of a commute, and it's not something many people want to do.

That's the whole question, though. If you can't get natives to work for you at $16 an hour, maybe the pay scale isn't the whole problem, but just that Americans don't want to do the work.

AlephZero posted...

It's like any other job. If you can't find people willing to do the work (legally) for the amount you're paying, you aren't paying enough.

Yeah, I agree that employers should raise wages across the board for obvious reasons.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that that is why Americans won't do migrant farm labor, though.

$16 an hour doesn't sound like very much for that kind of labor if they can find easier work for a similar price. I mean, you can work in a post office for $18 - 20+ an hour. That's probably a more appealing job than field work for $16.

I don't believe Americans are a special case of not being willing to do dirty work for the right price. A lot of dirty and physically laborious jobs are filled by American men. You just need the right wage and benefits package.

If the work is seasonal, that is another mark against it because I think most people would prefer consistent work that doesn't leave them looking for another job the rest of the year.
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Another question though. Can companies afford to pay employees more or are they just cheap and greedy so they pay as low as they can?
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Esrac posted...

$16 an hour doesn't sound like very much for that kind of labor if they can find easier work for a similar price. I mean, you can work in a post office for $18 - 20+ an hour. That's probably a more appealing job than field work for $16.

The median income for a mail carrier is only marginally higher (at around $17.25, which is a median, not the entry level wages we're discussing here) and that is often considered a hard job, too! Going postal and all that, remember?

Esrac posted...

I don't believe Americans are a special case of not being willing to do dirty work for the right price. A lot of dirty and physically laborious jobs are filled by American men. You just need the right wage and benefits package.

We are, though, and saying that we aren't because we just require higher pay is baking your premise into your conclusion.

Esrac posted...

If the work is seasonal, that is another mark against it because I think most people would prefer consistent work that doesn't leave them looking for another job the rest of the year.

Yep, people really hate working shitty jobs, especially Americans that have historically relied on strong labor unions and weak international competition to buoy their wages to livable levels.
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Esrac posted...

I don't believe Americans are a special case of not being willing to do dirty work for the right price. A lot of dirty and physically laborious jobs are filled by American men. You just need the right wage and benefits package.

Look at seasonal fishing in Alaska. Even before Deadliest Catch I don't think they had much trouble finding people willing to do the work. It's shit work, even worse than picking crops. Physically demanding, dangerous, days without sleep, cramped quarters eating shit food, but people do it because the pay is insane.
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The idea that illegals only work the fields is such a racist and ignorant view from liberals

I've seen illegals do everything from laying asphalt, painting houses, carpentry work, plumbing and mechanical.

To say Americans don't do those jobs is laughable.
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X-Pac_Heat posted...

The idea that illegals only work the fields is such a racist and ignorant view from liberals

I've seen illegals do everything from laying asphalt, painting houses, carpentry work, plumbing and mechanical.

To say Americans don't do those jobs is laughable.

they also work in fast food and retail for the most part, kind of like everyone else
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Veggeta X posted...

Another question though. Can companies afford to pay employees more or are they just cheap and greedy so they pay as low as they can?

Paying more would necessitate an increase in the prices they charge. They can't increase prices because they're competing against other people who use illegal labor to keep their prices low. It's kind of a shit situation all around. People want to buy food cheap which keeps the demand for illegal labor high.
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Alphamon posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Veggeta X posted...

80/80

How true is this statement? Would regular Americans do the same laborious work illegals are willing to do for minimum wage and long hours?

Yes

Problem is illegals will do it for less than minimum wage.

thus making the food you buy cheaper.

a net benefit to regular americans

@Alphamon Wait, so you're saying if labor is less expensive then the food can be cheaper because these food companies will net more revenue? Then conversely, it must be true that selling more food, and thus netting more revenue, can allow workers to be paid more.

How do we sell more food? Increase minimum wage. As minimum wage has decreased over the last 50 years, adjusted for inflation, I'm certain that other factors are attributable to inflation.

Balrog0 posted...

Esrac posted...

$16 an hour doesn't sound like very much for that kind of labor if they can find easier work for a similar price. I mean, you can work in a post office for $18 - 20+ an hour. That's probably a more appealing job than field work for $16.

The median income for a mail carrier is only marginally higher (at around $17.25, which is a median, not the entry level wages we're discussing here) and that is often considered a hard job, too! Going postal and all that, remember?

Esrac posted...

I don't believe Americans are a special case of not being willing to do dirty work for the right price. A lot of dirty and physically laborious jobs are filled by American men. You just need the right wage and benefits package.

We are, though, and saying that we aren't because we just require higher pay is baking your premise into your conclusion.

Esrac posted...

If the work is seasonal, that is another mark against it because I think most people would prefer consistent work that doesn't leave them looking for another job the rest of the year.

Yep, people really hate working shitty jobs, especially Americans that have historically relied on strong labor unions and weak international competition to buoy their wages to livable levels.

I don't know, man. I suspect you're looking at a specific type of American worker. Like the urban an salaryman type of guy. I've worked around a lot of more rural, blue collar types who put in a lot of hard, dirty work with long hours and often no overtime. None of which was union. The offshore oil industry and other boat and rig worker types.

If those industries can get American workers, I think the farming industry can.
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Esrac posted...

I don't know, man. I suspect you're looking at a specific type of American worker. Like the urban an salaryman type of guy. I've worked around a lot of more rural, blue collar types who put in a lot of hard, dirty work with long hours and often no overtime. None of which was union. The offshore oil industry and other boat and rig worker types.

My dad was a 'panel gorilla' in silicon valley before the dot com bust. Most of his coworkers were under the table. I currently live in Little Rock, Arkansas, which is not a hotbed of the cultural elite. I'm not thinking of any kind of worker in particular.

Esrac posted...

If those industries can get American workers, I think the farming industry can.

Clearly that isn't the case. I think maybe you're the one who has a bad idea of the average worker given your personal experiences. You guys keep talking about oil rigs and alaskan fishers... I'll let you think about how generalizable you feel those industries are and why
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Balrog0 posted...

Esrac posted...

I don't know, man. I suspect you're looking at a specific type of American worker. Like the urban an salaryman type of guy. I've worked around a lot of more rural, blue collar types who put in a lot of hard, dirty work with long hours and often no overtime. None of which was union. The offshore oil industry and other boat and rig worker types.

My dad was a 'panel gorilla' in silicon valley before the dot com bust. Most of his coworkers were under the table. I currently live in Little Rock, Arkansas, which is not a hotbed of the cultural elite. I'm not thinking of any kind of worker in particular.

Esrac posted...

If those industries can get American workers, I think the farming industry can.

Clearly that isn't the case. I think maybe you're the one who has a bad idea of the average worker given your personal experiences. You guys keep talking about oil rigs and alaskan fishers... I'll let you think about how generalizable you feel those industries are and why

I don't know what to tell you, man. Yeah, I've referenced my work history with tough manual labor jobs and how they're filled by Americans. Maybe that does color my perspective on this, because it does convince me that there are plenty of Americans who will do hard, dirty work for the right price. I don't see any reason why that would apply to jobs like offshore oil industry work, but not farming and other types of field work.

If farmers can't get Americans to work their fields for $16 an hour, that just means $16 an hour isn't enough to draw them in. Especially in a state as expensive as California. Particularly if the work is seasonal instead of year round. I don't believe Americans won't do it because it's too hard or too dirty. I'm not really thinking about the average American worker here. I'm thinking of lower working class manual laborers.

Why do you suppose Americans wouldn't want to do that kind of work if not due to a lack of sufficient compensation?
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Esrac posted...

Why do you suppose Americans wouldn't want to do that kind of work if not due to a lack of sufficient compensation?

"Transient labor" doesn't really exist anymore in America, apart from illegal immigrants.

Esrac posted...

I don't know what to tell you, man. Yeah, I've referenced my work history with tough manual labor jobs and how they're filled by Americans. Maybe that does color my perspective on this, because it does convince me that there are plenty of Americans who will do hard, dirty work for the right price. I don't see any reason why that would apply to jobs like offshore oil industry work, but not farming and other types of field work.

There are lots of reasons if you think about it, though. I've already outlined some of the reasons why they're different, instead of just shrugging your shoulders and talking about your experiences maybe you should actually research the issue and inform yourself.

Esrac posted...

If farmers can't get Americans to work their fields for $16 an hour, that just means $16 an hour isn't enough to draw them in. Especially in a state as expensive as California. Particularly if the work is seasonal instead of year round. I don't believe Americans won't do it because it's too hard or too dirty. I'm not really thinking about the average American worker here. I'm thinking of lower working class manual laborers.

Again, this is all begging the question. You can make this argument at any wage level (in fact, you all have already moved the goal posts from $10 to $16 not being enough, just in this topic)

And again, I've already outlined several reasons why they won't and alluded to the larger problem, which has to do with expectations and work history. To be concise in restating my point, it's seen as a dead end job for younger workers and as too low-paid for older workers who are out of work due to the collapse of their industry (I mentioned coal miners specifically but any kind of factory work also works)

I'd also like to point out that I've never said the reason Americans won't do it is because it's dirty or hard.

Esrac posted...

Why do you suppose Americans wouldn't want to do that kind of work if not due to a lack of sufficient compensation?

It's impossible to talk about this issue if you insist on talking about it in such overly simplistic terms.

There's no such thing as a job someone won't do if they're 'sufficiently compensated' because the idea of sufficient compensation literally implies that, you know, it's sufficient to get one to do it.

However, most crops aren't analogous snowcrabs with respect to the return you get on your investment, fishing is harder to automate, and there's no international OPEC-like organization protecting the value of crops from falling below a certain level to ensure farmer profitability.

But we've already outlined a lot of reasons in this topic outside wages why the work is undesirable even if you don't consider things like profitability and competition.

So why are you asking it that way?
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Esrac posted...

Why do you suppose Americans wouldn't want to do that kind of work if not due to a lack of sufficient compensation?

"Transient labor" doesn't really exist anymore in America, apart from illegal immigrants.

Well, I know some jobs are seasonal in the shipping industry. I've been seeing a number of advertisements for seasonal postal jobs on social media offering $21 an hour. If I weren't shipping out to boot camp next month, I'd probably look into that. Do you count seasonal hiring for shipping and retail industries as transient labor?

But, yes, I acknowledge temporary work isn't as appealing for people who need long term work to get by. Most people don't want to take a job that only lasts 3 or 4 months unless there's a good chance it'll have a good chance at transitioning into a more permanent position.
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Esrac posted...

Do you count seasonal hiring for shipping and retail industries as transient labor?

It's close enough to be a safe "probably".