Current Events > Polygon: Gaming's toxic men, explained

(+) Yeah! (+)

ssk9716757 posted...

Esrac posted...

2. Considering the anonymous nature of online gaming, how do we actually know the demographics of people committing "toxic" behavior? Do we have actual data on what percentage white people vs. black people use the N-Word online? Do we have actual data on what percentage of white men vs latino men call someone a homophobic slur online? It seems like the assumption is online toxicity is a white male problem just because its often white males we encounter online. And, I suspect, because social justice minded people (the ones most likely to be having conversations about this) seem to downplay or overlook the bad behavior of women and minorities.

It doesnt really matter whether there are individual women or non-white people who may engage in toxic behavior. The discussion is about a larger problematic culture. And that culture is one that overwhelmingly targets people who are non-white, female, or non-heteronormative.

Also, slightly unrelated, but it does bother me how even discussions where white men arent the victims get turned into discussions about making white men the victims, when the entirety of the harassment being discussed is targeted at everyone but white men. You may be tired of seeing the word toxic online but minorities are tired of the actual toxicity being thrown at them.

3. I disagree with that. I don't think the relative levels of prejudice white people vs black people endure in society at large is a relevant factor. If we should make a hard distinction for one, we should for all. If there wasn't a need to make such a distinction, then why is there such a reaction from white males when articles "explaining" toxic white males show up? Unless you think that kind of reaction is going to occur every time anyone talks about toxicity in gaming.

That reaction is from those people feeling personally attacked. But again, this article is not going to make people who read it think that all white people are like this, whereas a negative story about a group of black people often has (and still does) make people think of all black people more negatively. Thats why the discourse is different.

This is utterly and completely bs. Everyone who's ever played a game like COD has been the target of this kind of vitriol, not just women and poc. The first match I ever played in Modern Warfare this guy yelled at me "If your mom had an abortion after I raped her like she should have, you wouldn't be playing this game right now!"
---

Howl posted...

Everyone who's ever played a game like COD has been the target of this kind of vitriol

Please provide your data.
---

scar the 1 posted...

Panthera posted...

I don't feel like reading through the entire article to check, does it have any clear stats on how it arrived at the conclusion of who is doing all the "toxic" stuff in gaming or not?

How do you figure one would collect such data?

I don't know, but it's kind of essential to figure out a way to do so, since otherwise you're not doing anything but projecting your preferred narrative onto the demographics involved.
---

What about toxic gamers that aren't even human?
---

NeoShadowhen posted...

But when you challenge anyone who feels like that persecution is part of their identity, it just makes them angrier. Theyre like people who believe in conspiracies.

Persecution Complex

Although originally a psychological term, persecution complex is now often used as media shorthand for broad sections of society who hold the view that they are the oppressed victims in a conspiracy to deprive them of long cherished rights. Often, those suffering from this delusion are unable to distinguish rights from privileges.

They pull out all kinds of facts and figures about why white men are the most persecuted in Western society. They really believe it, and will jump on anything that allows them to embrace that persecuted identity more fully.

Psychologically, I understand that. Its easier than saying, Oh, Im part of a privileged group and still things suck for me. Because that makes you more of a loser. I cant get anything I want and also Ive got it better off than anyone else? Thats not a comfortable thing to have to accept.

My god...
They were so close.

I don't know. I have a hard time believing that someone could describe a phenomena so eloquently but be completely incapable of self reflection. They have to realize the irony. This must be propaganda.

LOL good point.
---

Howl posted...

This is utterly and completely bs. Everyone who's ever played a game like COD has been the target of this kind of vitriol, not just women and poc. The first match I ever played in Modern Warfare this guy yelled at me "If your mom had an abortion after I raped her like she should have, you wouldn't be playing this game right now!"

"EVERYONE HAS IT HAPPEN TO THEM, SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL!?" is such a fucking garbage defense. Do better.
---

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

This sounds like hate speech against white male gamers.

---

Gamerbros, who have ZERO issue opining
(often with no evidence) on the "ills" of feminists and social justice advocates, lose their shit when they themselves are analyzied. Shocker

The fact that CE responded to Henry Cavill's ignorant comments regarding dating with a mostly collective agreement, yet lashed out at this story from the gate is yet another example. I really do believe white male gamers want an atmosphere where anything goes, yet they're never critiqued for the behavior that results from such an idea
---

NepGear462 posted...

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

overwhelming majority of toxic behavior is sexist/racist, but ok, champ
---

FrisbeeDude posted...

NepGear462 posted...

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

overwhelming majority of toxic behavior is sexist/racist, but ok, champ

[Citation needed]
---

FrisbeeDude posted...

NepGear462 posted...

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

overwhelming majority of toxic behavior is sexist/racist, but ok, champ

Against other males, yes

TheCurseX2 posted...

"Toxicity in gaming" is a term coined by people that had weak banter, weak gaming skills, weak social ability.

If you can't handle my venomous shit talk, then you don't deserve to play the same game as me. Go back to The Sims. You're not ready to exist in my world.

And do you know why I talk so much trash? Because of studies like this. Because I know it gets into a person's head, it upsets them, it breaks them down spiritually and that makes them easier to dismantle and destroy and win. I'm not some fool, there's me vs. you and I don't like losing. Don't like it? Get better and win and then push your moral shit but until then you're going to sit there and fumble through trying to ignore me while I send you tilting so hard you will live the next twenty minutes of your life in vertigo.

We got a badass over here.

Or, more likely, an asshole.

VectorChaos posted...

FrisbeeDude posted...

NepGear462 posted...

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

overwhelming majority of toxic behavior is sexist/racist, but ok, champ

[Citation needed]

15 years of online gaming as a person of color, who has games with countless other people of color who have expressed the same sentiments
---

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Howl posted...

This is utterly and completely bs. Everyone who's ever played a game like COD has been the target of this kind of vitriol, not just women and poc. The first match I ever played in Modern Warfare this guy yelled at me "If your mom had an abortion after I raped her like she should have, you wouldn't be playing this game right now!"

"EVERYONE HAS IT HAPPEN TO THEM, SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL!?" is such a fucking garbage defense. Do better.

you're not doing any better yourself
you get everyone in this topic to agree with you that harassment in online games is a problem, then what...?

you still can't do shit

he's not defending anything, all he's tellin you is that some players are assholes in online games and there's fuck all you can do about it because of how the internet works, so suck it up or spit out some fuckin solutions
---

FrisbeeDude posted...

VectorChaos posted...

FrisbeeDude posted...

NepGear462 posted...

Youre not special just because youre a women or PoC^

overwhelming majority of toxic behavior is sexist/racist, but ok, champ

[Citation needed]

15 years of online gaming as a person of color, who has games with countless other people of color who have expressed the same sentiments

And you somehow know they were all motivated by racism? They all somehow knew you are black?

You'd be rejecting this kind of "proof" if it supported the opposing position and you fucking know it you hack.
---

Panthera posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Panthera posted...

I don't feel like reading through the entire article to check, does it have any clear stats on how it arrived at the conclusion of who is doing all the "toxic" stuff in gaming or not?

How do you figure one would collect such data?

I don't know, but it's kind of essential to figure out a way to do so, since otherwise you're not doing anything but projecting your preferred narrative onto the demographics involved.

Sometimes it feels like people want it both ways. On the one hand it's absolutely natural that "real gamers" (a very male dominated demographic) react with toxicity when game journalists attack them, then when gamers are being extra toxic towards minorities and women, all of a sudden it's "we need hard stats on who is committing these atrocious toxic remarks".
What's the slur for white male? Is it commonly used when people try to flame white men on CoD?

I agree, it would be great to have harder stats on the toxic remarks thrown around. There might be some game companies that publish these kinds of things, I'm not sure. But if we widen the view to look at online forums in general, I'm baffled how anyone can think that "everyone gets the same amount of shit". Like, I have female friends who get indecent proposals (from men) as soon as they post in a big Facebook group. Often it's followed up with threats or more toxic remarks. I have a friend who got sent dickpics just because she was in the local newspaper. There was a famous case a couple of years ago in Sweden where a girl posted on H&M's Facebook page that she thought they shouldn't sell t-shirts with Chris Brown on them, and she got thousands of hateful comments, threats, threats sent to her physical address, etc. There's so much of this that I (nor my male friends) don't get at all. And I've grown up on the internet, I've played online games since they existed. Why should I expect toxicity in games to be significantly different from online in general?
---

NonDairyMiltank posted...

The Great Muta 22 posted...

Howl posted...

This is utterly and completely bs. Everyone who's ever played a game like COD has been the target of this kind of vitriol, not just women and poc. The first match I ever played in Modern Warfare this guy yelled at me "If your mom had an abortion after I raped her like she should have, you wouldn't be playing this game right now!"

"EVERYONE HAS IT HAPPEN TO THEM, SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL!?" is such a fucking garbage defense. Do better.

you're not doing any better yourself
you get everyone in this topic to agree with you that harassment in online games is a problem, then what...?

you still can't do shit

he's not defending anything, all he's tellin you is that some players are assholes in online games and there's fuck all you can do about it because of how the internet works, so suck it up or spit out some fuckin solutions

It's Great Muta 22.

This guy probably holds his hand to his right breast with a concerned look on his face when reading these topics. God, I can only imagine the dumb expression he carries on with when he types a reply like the one quoted above. Probably furrows his eyebrows and scrunches his face up like a prune and looks at the keyboard while hammering away like a caveman that is genuinely baffled by what he sees before him.
---

Nidhoggr posted...

Too many people take the anonymity of the internet too personally. The 12 year old screaming the N-word repeatedly over Xbox live is not actually a racist if you can believe it. He's just trying to get a rise out of people because he thinks it's funny. Do you really think he'll be the same person when he's 24?

Yes.

They will be the same people complaining what the big deal about the word. Complaining why black people aren't in a better position. Ask Why certain insults are a big deal, but will immediately resort to fists if you insult their mother, call them a cuck, etc. They are missing important facts about life that would prevent such terrible behavior, which is why they're doing it in the first place.

Toxicity in online gaming wont stop because of the anonymous nature of it. Its similar to social media and message boards. And because theres so much backlash against toxicity in practically every other aspect of society, those are two of the last places where people who want to say offensive things feel like they can do so without any real repercussions so they resist any attempts to change the nature of it.

On top of that, many peoples response when they encounter someone toxic online is to just play something else. Or stop playing online altogether. So you end up with an increasing pool of toxic players, who then drive away any new non-toxic players that try to play. Just like there are certain online sites and forums that people who just want a civil discussion dont go to because the site is full of toxic people.
---

And I think the real difficulty is in the hard data. We have no proof one way or another that of the demographics of the instigators and the recipients.

I mean, really, all this piece is is interviews with people who have been exposed to the subject of toxicity in gaming in some aspect, either through their work, their research, their own leisure time, or some combination thereof, and then their reactions to such exposure, whether it be personal, professional, or in relation to their studies. It's not meant to be a data piece or a full research.

And that's really all it should be taken as. Anyone doing otherwise, for whatever reason, is misusing it.
---

Teddytalks posted...

Nidhoggr posted...

Too many people take the anonymity of the internet too personally. The 12 year old screaming the N-word repeatedly over Xbox live is not actually a racist if you can believe it. He's just trying to get a rise out of people because he thinks it's funny. Do you really think he'll be the same person when he's 24?

Yes.

They will be the same people complaining what the big deal about the word. Complaining why black people aren't in a better position. Ask Why certain insults are a big deal, but will immediately resort to fists if you insult their mother, call them a cuck, etc. They are missing important facts about life that would prevent such terrible behavior, which is why they're doing it in the first place.

they're zillions of ways to antagonize people, yet the same racist/sexist insults are by far the most common...why, in an overwhelmingly white space, might that be the case?
---

This is why I don't online often, and when I do, it's without a microphone
---

Coffeebeanz posted...

This is why I don't online often, and when I do, it's without a microphone

my sister and girlfriend are the exact same.
---

But why would you be attempting to offend the minority when they're more likely to be a white dude? Something like virgin, rapist or pedophile would probably actually upset someone more.

Actually scratch that gamers often brag about rape

And they use virgin/pedo insults too. Hell, those insults get thrown around *all the time* right here on GameFAQs, CE especially. I also recall plenty of people using "autism" as an insult, and then there's the hundred variants of "******" the internet has come up with. (Hell, I got auto-flagged for even trying to say the word, that's how pronounced it was on this site just a couple of years ago.)

It's the principle reason I don't pay any mind to online insults, in-game or not, because it seems like *nobody* is safe from being targeted when you really think about it, even the "white male gamer" is assumed to be inherently "toxic" nowadays, no exceptions, creating a new prejudice and slur from a new audience. (IE: They've become the monster they were hunting.) It's even more silly to care when I remember that the most mouthy shit-talk spewers are typically children, the grand majority of whom I can't identify the gender or race of anyway (even on voice chat) so for all I know it's a black kid or a little girl dropping some of those racist and sexist remarks. Shit, I'm bi, and even I drop the F-bomb from time to time.

Personally I don't mind that more people are into video games, so I don't give a single fuck about "gatekeeping" and the like, at the same time though, I also know it's impossible to rinse the community's mouth out with soap, especially as the number of players increases. Catch-22 and all that.
---

pretty much every game has this handy little thing called a mute button if someone won't shut the fuck up just mute them. problem solved. the internet is anonymous thats why people are assholes. thats it.

scar the 1 posted...

Sometimes it feels like people want it both ways. On the one hand it's absolutely natural that "real gamers" (a very male dominated demographic) react with toxicity when game journalists attack them, then when gamers are being extra toxic towards minorities and women, all of a sudden it's "we need hard stats on who is committing these atrocious toxic remarks".
What's the slur for white male? Is it commonly used when people try to flame white men on CoD?

This is impossible to even make sense of. Where did I say it's "natural" for people to react in any given way or draw any distinction between different situations like you're implying? My point is that in general you're going to have a hard time making a legitimate point on the issue if you don't put effort into detailing how you're determining exactly who is doing the things you're criticizing, since otherwise you are literally just assuming you're right by default. For example, do you think non-white men never say anything sexist? Do you think white women never say anything racist? Safe to say you don't, since those would be dumb things to believe, but the conversation tends to act like it's the case because painting a picture where one demographic is the entire problem is easier to digest than looking at the bigger picture, which is that the mostly anonymous nature of online gaming tends to give people an excuse to be open about their bigotry, regardless of who they are.

White men are the majority in online game so we're the most common ones doing it, sure, and there are obviously societal aspects that encourage more prejudice from the majority so that helps make it even more common, but it's not the whole story. It's important to acknowledge it's not as simple as just saying one group of people are the bad guys if you want to have any chance of making progress on the issue. Racism from women, sexism from non-white people, homophobia from people who aren't straight white guys, etc. Bigotry doesn't become acceptable based on the demographic engaging in it, it's wrong no matter what and that needs to be addressed. The process of addressing it will naturally tend to focus more on white men than other groups for reasons outlined above, but entirely overlooking the same behavior from others doesn't help anyone and in fact just gives the shittier members of the white guy demographic reason to justify their persecution complex.
---

Panthera posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Sometimes it feels like people want it both ways. On the one hand it's absolutely natural that "real gamers" (a very male dominated demographic) react with toxicity when game journalists attack them, then when gamers are being extra toxic towards minorities and women, all of a sudden it's "we need hard stats on who is committing these atrocious toxic remarks".
What's the slur for white male? Is it commonly used when people try to flame white men on CoD?

This is impossible to even make sense of. Where did I say it's "natural" for people to react in any given way or draw any distinction between different situations like you're implying? My point is that in general you're going to have a hard time making a legitimate point on the issue if you don't put effort into detailing how you're determining exactly who is doing the things you're criticizing, since otherwise you are literally just assuming you're right by default. For example, do you think non-white men never say anything sexist? Do you think white women never say anything racist? Safe to say you don't, since those would be dumb things to believe, but the conversation tends to act like it's the case because painting a picture where one demographic is the entire problem is easier to digest than looking at the bigger picture, which is that the mostly anonymous nature of online gaming tends to give people an excuse to be open about their bigotry, regardless of who they are.

White men are the majority in online game so we're the most common ones doing it, sure, and there are obviously societal aspects that encourage more prejudice from the majority so that helps make it even more common, but it's not the whole story. It's important to acknowledge it's not as simple as just saying one group of people are the bad guys if you want to have any chance of making progress on the issue. Racism from women, sexism from non-white people, homophobia from people who aren't straight white guys, etc. Bigotry doesn't become acceptable based on the demographic engaging in it, it's wrong no matter what and that needs to be addressed. The process of addressing it will naturally tend to focus more on white men than other groups for reasons outlined above, but entirely overlooking the same behavior from others doesn't help anyone and in fact just gives the shittier members of the white guy demographic reason to justify their persecution complex.

You didn't say that. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer, my point is that the two views I presented are typically held by the same people. If you're not one of those, then go on and disregard what I said.
But again, consider the fact that the "default" identity online is being a white, straight male. And there aren't any slurs for that. If you're a woman, or black, or lgbt, people will seize upon that to push buttons. But to insult a white straight male, there's no slur. Would that kind of environment look like that if white, straight men weren't mainly the offenders?

As for bigotry, I whole-heartedly agree that it's never acceptable. But identifying an endemic problem in a specific demographic isn't bigoted.
---

scar the 1 posted...

But again, consider the fact that the "default" identity online is being a white, straight male. And there aren't any slurs for that. If you're a woman, or black, or lgbt, people will seize upon that to push buttons. But to insult a white straight male, there's no slur. Would that kind of environment look like that if white, straight men weren't mainly the offenders?

As for bigotry, I whole-heartedly agree that it's never acceptable. But identifying an endemic problem in a specific demographic isn't bigoted.

I don't think the first point is really relevant, as I don't think the online gaming environment is anything other than a reflection of society at large and white men being the majority of western society is what leads there not being much in the way of specific slurs for us. If every white guy online never said another bad thing, it wouldn't result in the creation of new anti-white slurs or cracker becoming more common, you'd still basically just see other groups throwing slurs at each other. You'd have to change society as a whole for that to change, I think

I agree that it's not bigotry to acknowledge a specific group tends to have a certain problem, however I do think it veers into bigoted territory when people speak as if members of that group are the only ones who have that problem even when there's no evidence to support the claim. I don't want to suggest that white men isn't a demographic with a lot of scumbags in it, just that removing the white male scumbags wouldn't equate to no scumbags existing anymore.
---

White men aren't a majority in western society.

And honestly, I don't really see anyone calling for the removal of white male scumbags, except maybe some radfems. Usually I see people identifying that white men are privileged. Not that they should be removed.
---

I don't mean removal in the sense of genocide <_< Shorthand for "dealing with the issues presented by them in some way". As in take away that part of the problem and you fix a big part of it but you haven't eliminated bigotry by any means
---

Panthera posted...

I don't mean removal in the sense of genocide <_< Shorthand for "dealing with the issues presented by them in some way". As in take away that part of the problem and you fix a big part of it but you haven't eliminated bigotry by any means

Yeah but even there, I don't see that either in the conversation. I can't say it doesn't happen, but for me it's more about actually understanding the problem.
---

Darmik posted...

Im a feminist media scholar,

---

So basically whining that the internet is a horrible place?
---

I only read the excerpts that were posted here but they're not wrong. Funny to see it has CE up in a tizzy.
---

ClockworkHare posted...

Many people already recognize that toxic behavior is a common issue with online gaming.
So that step's pretty much taken care of. Its what to actually do about it that's the puzzle.
What practical and effective methods could game providers implement to reduce toxic behavior?

Notice I said "game providers". You could suggest government regulation getting involved, but what could it do that the game providers haven't already attempted? What could government legislation do that would not be excessive and totalitarian towards online game communities? Banning players for offenses? That already happens and it's easily sidestepped. Spamming nations with politically correct PSAs? That doesn't work either, especially with games that run on global servers. There's a lot of countries with online gamers that don't particularly agree with westernized ideals...

If you're scratching your head trying to come up with a workable solution, you finally understand the REAL issue for why the toxic behavior persists: a lack of power to prevent it. And it's not from a lack of trying.

Most online gamers grasp the existence of the issue. They just can't do anything significant to stop it. And I'm afraid a social media bandwagon movement to do so would be a pipe dream as well. Like I'm not trying to rain on your idealistic parade, but for now many online gaming communities are jungles that can't effectively be tamed with political correctness. As sad as it is, this is basically as good as it's going to get in many games for a long time. So if you want to play in those chaotic environments where you already know there's a risk of being harassed, log in with sturdy armor instead of a soapbox.

I'm not saying the issue is imaginary.
I'm saying there are currently no effective solutions for eliminating the issue on a significant scale.
You can't really tackle this problem with the same methods as offline social issues. It won't work. Too much anonymity and revolving doors.

So in short you do recognise it's a problem, but it's a complicated problem with no easy answer and we need to spend more time and energy trying to address it. Glad we agree.

For me it's less about regulations and censorship and more about education and cultural change.
---

Asherlee10 posted...

FrisbeeDude posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

This is why I don't online often, and when I do, it's without a microphone

my sister and girlfriend are the exact same.

Same here. If I am playing with random people, I will just remain silent.

Shouldn't it always be so? Microphone only for friends. Anyone else, mute and ignore?
---

CM_Ponch posted...

tag.

---

Asherlee10 posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

FrisbeeDude posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

This is why I don't online often, and when I do, it's without a microphone

my sister and girlfriend are the exact same.

Same here. If I am playing with random people, I will just remain silent.

Shouldn't it always be so? Microphone only for friends. Anyone else, mute and ignore?

It becomes difficult in games that rely on communication and your friends aren't online to play. EX: PUBG

Well I personally wouldn't play then. I really don't want to listen to some stupid 10 year old yelling over the mic.
---

People reading polygon in 2018
---

Asherlee10 posted...

Okay, but I like to play when I like to play. I don't really care to wait around for my friends just to play a game.

It would be nice if gaming had a little bit less toxicity in it so that random people could play well together without such issues. And these aren't just 10 year olds yelling over a mic. These are at least high school age or older that pull some of this toxic bullshit.

It is the internet, where there is no punishment or at least no harsh punishment for being an asshole. Not sure how you can stop the toxicity. Even banning people doesn't work, they just make new accounts. Even if you have to pay for the account.
---

As someone who plays older online games, the only slur I see a lot of is calling someone else gay or implying they are gay as an insult. Maybe I don't interact with others enough to see it more often, but I find gamefaqs boards to be more aggressive than the online games I play.

I think game companies can do a lot to help enforce a tolerant culture, for example by banning or muting repeat offenders. I mostly play MMORPGs online where you spend a lot of time on one character however, so maybe being banned matters more in those games than something like Battlefield or COD.

It would be interesting to see amount of online aggression by age though. I think that the older the game, the more professional the people who play it.
---

Sure is great how shitty journalists put forth divisive hate speech to push their narrative forward. Why don't we just go back to blaming the Jews?

Stop being prejudiced TC.
---