Current Events > Polygon: Gaming's toxic men, explained

(+) Yeah! (+)

pinky0926 posted...

ClockworkHare posted...

Many people already recognize that toxic behavior is a common issue with online gaming.
So that step's pretty much taken care of. Its what to actually do about it that's the puzzle.
What practical and effective methods could game providers implement to reduce toxic behavior?

Notice I said "game providers". You could suggest government regulation getting involved, but what could it do that the game providers haven't already attempted? What could government legislation do that would not be excessive and totalitarian towards online game communities? Banning players for offenses? That already happens and it's easily sidestepped. Spamming nations with politically correct PSAs? That doesn't work either, especially with games that run on global servers. There's a lot of countries with online gamers that don't particularly agree with westernized ideals...

If you're scratching your head trying to come up with a workable solution, you finally understand the REAL issue for why the toxic behavior persists: a lack of power to prevent it. And it's not from a lack of trying.

Most online gamers grasp the existence of the issue. They just can't do anything significant to stop it. And I'm afraid a social media bandwagon movement to do so would be a pipe dream as well. Like I'm not trying to rain on your idealistic parade, but for now many online gaming communities are jungles that can't effectively be tamed with political correctness. As sad as it is, this is basically as good as it's going to get in many games for a long time. So if you want to play in those chaotic environments where you already know there's a risk of being harassed, log in with sturdy armor instead of a soapbox.

I'm not saying the issue is imaginary.
I'm saying there are currently no effective solutions for eliminating the issue on a significant scale.
You can't really tackle this problem with the same methods as offline social issues. It won't work. Too much anonymity and revolving doors.

So in short you do recognise it's a problem, but it's a complicated problem with no easy answer and we need to spend more time and energy trying to address it. Glad we agree.

For me it's less about regulations and censorship and more about education and cultural change. All I was taking issue with are the people who flat out deny that there is a problem and it's just lowkey "locker talk. "

I don't even pretend to believe that the toxic nature of it isn't a problem. It's just that I completely disagree that it's a problem solely propogated by white men and that the problem doesn't affect white men. I don't play any online games that have voice chat because I don't like hearing the constant unrelenting spewage of slurs and insults. It's bs to say that this problem primarily affects women and poc. It affects everyone.
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I thought this was sorta interesting

Racist language might flow through them, but according to many of the trolls Ive interviewed, they arent being racist. Theyre trolling, which to them is a different thing entirely.

I like how the article overall tends to focus more on the people than on the games
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Coffeebeanz posted...

This is why I don't online often, and when I do, it's without a microphone

You should just use a voice changer app to sound like a guy.
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I bet the ones that agree with the article and defend it would call it racist and sexist under any other metric. The fact that they do agree with it says more about them than the targeted demographic defending themselves.
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computer programming was originally a feminized profession

gender is a social construct

Then programming decided it was male and she can stop complaining
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TheCurseX2 posted...

And do you know why I talk so much trash? Because of studies like this. Because I know it gets into a person's head, it upsets them, it breaks them down spiritually and that makes them easier to dismantle and destroy and win. I'm not some fool, there's me vs. you and I don't like losing. Don't like it? Get better and win and then push your moral shit but until then you're going to sit there and fumble through trying to ignore me while I send you tilting so hard you will live the next twenty minutes of your life in vertigo.

you have to break someone's spirit an morale to beat them? YIKES
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The vast, vast majority of what is called toxicity in online gaming should be seen as no big deal whatsoever

Nut up a bit
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Just came in here to watch CE get butt hurt by this.
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his story is not another attempt to chronicle the activities of racist and misandrist women who harass men and white people on social media and in multiplayer games.

Nor is it an existential inquiry into their particular niche in the video game community. Rather, this story asks: Where do they come from? Why they are here? And what allows them to stay?

What follows are interviews under a variety of rubrics with 11 writers and academics who have studied and published useful work on the problem of misandry and racism in gaming and in popular entertainment. Most have experienced harassment and abuse from toxic gamers.

I mean this sound pretty sexist to me doesn't it? Targeting women like that in this article? How about this:

How did we get here?

Gaming has attracted (or spawned) many angry young women who are comfortable with harassing and abusing men. How did that come about?

Matt Miltner (Miltner is a Ph.D. candidate at the Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism at the University of Southern California, specializing in technology and culture.):

Im a MRA media scholar, and as such, I dont believe in gender essentialism. While sex is biological, gender is a social construct. We are trained from childhood to behave in certain gendered ways.

Theres an often promoted belief amongst certain people within the worlds of gaming and tech that technology is naturally, even biologically, the domain of women. This is usually based in the idea that women are naturally logical and men are naturally emotional. It completely negates the fact that computer programming was originally a masculinized profession.

With the first computers, hardware design was considered to be the big challenge, and therefore was considered to be in the female domain. Programming was seen to be menial labor, like secretarial work. It was boring and repetitive, so they decided it was work for the men to do.

In the 1960s, when it became clear that programmers actually had a lot of autonomy and were really in demand, employers started to emphasize the fact that programming was creative work, and so women started to come into the profession. A lot of stereotypes about who was good at computer programming went into the hiring process, and that largely contributed to the computing culture we see today. The men whod been working in programming were edged out. Not only were their contributions undervalued, but the culture they were working in was unwelcoming to men.

Just look at all that sexism towards women.
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Who literally give a flying fuck? I have never once even thought an insult from an online game
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Why do so many of these women labor under a delusion of heroism?

Serial harassers and women who display toxic behavior often portray themselves as heroic defenders of a noble cause.

Paula Booth:
Ive researched toxic fan activity, which I call protective fandom. These groups are not merely forming around a particular text or a particular medium. They see themselves as the protector of it. They see themselves as the line between what they want it to be and what other people want it to be.

A lot of toxic people just want to be free to be toxic. I remember one time I asked a gamer she sounded like a black chick and she was using the H-word towards another player who sounded white so I asked her in a private chat, Are you a racist? She said, No, Im not racist. Im just being funny. I just say that to get under peoples skin, to get a rise out of them. Im really not being racist. My best friend is white.

She was using all this language and really just being toxic online.

It didnt matter to her that she harmed somebody. I dont think shes really focused on the real world around her, or the ramifications of what her speech is actually doing. Shes just having a good time.

I hate it when people say, Oh its just some fat kids in their mamas basement. No. These are college students; these are people in the office. These are regular chicks that I would see at Applebees and Starbucks. I hate whenever we try to profile and label them so we can other them.

They are regular-assed average black chicks. I wish people would stop saying its just children. These are co-workers, these are people who make our coffee, people we go bowling with.

Why are you attacking women of color like this?
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People are saying that it's all hopeless and that this stuff is just unavoidable but I think certain things have gotten better since a decade ago. You couldn't even have conversations like this back then. You'd just get screamed down and called a pussy.
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Darmik posted...

People are saying that it's all hopeless and that this stuff is just unavoidable but I think certain things have gotten better since a decade ago. You couldn't even have conversations like this back then. You'd just get screamed down and called a pussy.

That's the way it should be

Damn pussies
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Cant handle competition? Sign out
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Darmik posted...

You couldn't even have conversations like this back then.

About you being a bigot? Surely those were allowed.
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These attempts to troll the topic are terrible. Write better material.
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Darmik posted...

These attempts to troll the topic are terrible. Write better material.

What attempts? Who's trolling?
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Darmik posted...

Write better material.

This is a good suggestion, but I doubt Polygon will take it to heart.
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Darmik posted...

People are saying that it's all hopeless and that this stuff is just unavoidable but I think certain things have gotten better since a decade ago. You couldn't even have conversations like this back then. You'd just get screamed down and called a pussy.

I dunno. I think I found that preferable to "hey guys! Let's demonize white males in every way we can and then when society gets really polarized because of it we'll say it's because of THEY'RE racism!"
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I don't play a lot of online games, but is there really a large base of women and POC harassing white men?

YourDrunkFather posted...

Darmik posted...

People are saying that it's all hopeless and that this stuff is just unavoidable but I think certain things have gotten better since a decade ago. You couldn't even have conversations like this back then. You'd just get screamed down and called a pussy.

I dunno. I think I found that preferable to "hey guys! Let's demonize white males in every way we can and then when society gets really polarized because of it we'll say it's because of THEY'RE racism!"

How are you reading this article and think that white men are being demonized? Are you relating to the men they're criticising in the article?

Also the only reason people are feeling 'demonized' by stuff like this is because they now know their behaviour is bothering people.
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Darmik posted...

How are you reading this article and think that white men are being demonized? Are you relating to the men they're criticising in the article?

Because this is a hit piece that only targets white men. At no point does it ever mention women or "people of color" potentially being part of the problem only white men.

and you fucking wonder why white men feel like they're being attacked well maybe it's because they are. Like I said before you and people like you in this topic agreeing with this hit piece are having more said about you than the people reacting negatively to the hit piece.

Also Polygon has a history of putting out shit like this over and over and over for the past 6 years (maybe more) and not just them Kotaku and many others do it as well. It's not a persecution complex if you're actually being persecuted.
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Darmik posted...

Also the only reason people are feeling 'demonized' by stuff like this is because they now know their behaviour is bothering people.

Oh look, more Kafka Trapping.
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gender is a social construct

Stopped here.

It's not a hit piece because not all white men are like this.

The article is specifically about gaming's toxic men. I'm guessing most men out there don't even talk about games on the internet or play online games.

If you read this article and think you're being attacked or feel the need to defend the behavior talked about what do you think that says about you?
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Darmik posted...

If you read this article and think you're being attacked or feel the need to defend the behavior talked about what do you think that says about you?

Again with your Kafka Trapping bullshit.

Stop it.
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Darmik posted...

But when you challenge anyone who feels like that persecution is part of their identity, it just makes them angrier. Theyre like people who believe in conspiracies.

Persecution Complex

Although originally a psychological term, persecution complex is now often used as media shorthand for broad sections of society who hold the view that they are the oppressed victims in a conspiracy to deprive them of long cherished rights. Often, those suffering from this delusion are unable to distinguish rights from privileges.

They pull out all kinds of facts and figures about why white men are the most persecuted in Western society. They really believe it, and will jump on anything that allows them to embrace that persecuted identity more fully.

Psychologically, I understand that. Its easier than saying, Oh, Im part of a privileged group and still things suck for me. Because that makes you more of a loser. I cant get anything I want and also Ive got it better off than anyone else? Thats not a comfortable thing to have to accept.

This bit of journalistic flatulence is the reason they are losing the narrative. And will continue to lose.

I consider people who write dumb articles like this as a special gift sent to me to show how vulnerable the support beams are propping up the current industry insiders.

Just read that quoted paragraph and think about it for a second. How it's a complete non-starter. There's no circumstance in which any conversation is possible when a moron opens with that in an article and claims to have positive intent. It's not an argument. It's projection to the other side and it can always be served back by just going 'no you'

It's like they want a stalemate when they write that. Because they sure as hell won't win by repeating that. Everyone knows they are gerrymandering their stats and data and calling in biased sources. When they call out gaming culture for rightly being pissed off when they poke at it, the only proper response is 'no you' and calling it projection on them. And that game can be played infinitely with counter serve upon counter serve. You can use gerrymander data sets in any way you want to spin the area under the integrated curve in your favor when using the data as a weapon. And everyone knows it's being used as a weapon and no one cares anymore.

Best part is they don't have the talent. So it would behoove them to not make the situation worse and instead try to mend it. But nope. These are people who don't care about games. So when the sides stop talking to each other...well color me shocked when the people who actually like games and are good at making them win the long game and emerge with the higher quality products and they are left starved out, destitute, and social pariahs.
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Banana_Cyanide posted...

I bet the ones that agree with the article and defend it would call it racist and sexist under any other metric. The fact that they do agree with it says more about them than the targeted demographic defending themselves.

this is what dudebros actually believe
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FrisbeeDude posted...

this is what dudebros actually believe

A lot of toxic people just want to be free to be toxic. I remember one time I asked a gamer she sounded like a black chick and she was using the H-word towards another player who sounded white so I asked her in a private chat, Are you a racist? She said, No, Im not racist. Im just being funny. I just say that to get under peoples skin, to get a rise out of them. Im really not being racist. My best friend is white.

She was using all this language and really just being toxic online.

It didnt matter to her that she harmed somebody. I dont think shes really focused on the real world around her, or the ramifications of what her speech is actually doing. Shes just having a good time.

I hate it when people say, Oh its just some fat kids in their mamas basement. No. These are college students; these are people in the office. These are regular chicks that I would see at Applebees and Starbucks. I hate whenever we try to profile and label them so we can other them.

They are regular-assed average black chicks. I wish people would stop saying its just children. These are co-workers, these are people who make our coffee, people we go bowling with.

So you mean to tell me that this isn't sexist and racist?
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Yes all of us white dude gamers are bombarded with racial slurs hurled by black women when we play online games

Next I'll change the headlines to read 'Australian School Shootings' to show that shootings in Australia are also bad.
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Darmik posted...

Yes all of us white dude gamers are bombarded with racial slurs hurled by black women when we play online games

Being obtuse and disingenuous as always.
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lmao yikes. I didnt know gamers were this sensitive their social environment being criticized. Youd think with all the SJW bashing they do (see: jessica price), they'd have thicker skin...guess not
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FrisbeeDude posted...

lmao yikes. I didnt know gamers were this sensitive their social environment being criticized. Youd think with all the SJW bashing they do (see: jessica price), they'd have thicker skin...guess not

Lmao yikes. I didn't know sjw's were this disingenuous when their social environment is being criticized. You'd think that with all the white male bashing they do (see: the person Jessica Price harassed), they'd be more honest...guess not
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Darmik posted...

These attempts to troll the topic are terrible. Write better material.

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Also what is with you people and your Kafka Traps? Do you think it makes you right or clever? Because it doesn't.
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Darmik posted...

Darmik posted...

These attempts to troll the topic are terrible. Write better material.

Start being more honest and stop with the Kafka Traps.
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ThanksUglyGod posted...

I don't play a lot of online games, but is there really a large base of women and POC harassing white men?

Banana_Cyanide posted...

Also what is with you people and your Kafka Traps? Do you think it makes you right or clever? Because it doesn't.

What is it with you people and repeating the same buzzwords over and over? Do you think it makes you right or clever? Because it doesn't.

Seriously though, as a white male I see this and I just think, yeah, it does suck when white people act like that. I don't really feel like these articles are talking about me.

Why do you think that this is an attack on all white men? Do you think this article is talking about men like you?
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action52 posted...

Banana_Cyanide posted...

Also what is with you people and your Kafka Traps? Do you think it makes you right or clever? Because it doesn't.

What is it with you people and repeating the same buzzwords over and over? Do you think it makes you right or clever? Because it doesn't.

Seriously though, as a white male I see this and I just think, yeah, it does suck when white people act like that. I don't really feel like these articles are talking about me.

Why do you think that this is an attack on all white men? Do you think this article is talking about men like you?

Explain the usefulness in singling out white men to start with. It's needlessly divisive and ignorant. Not to mention kinda racist.
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YourDrunkFather posted...

Explain the usefulness in singling out white men to start with. It's needlessly divisive and ignorant. Not to mention kinda racist.

Read the article
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Frankly there are better ways to analyze sexism than some shitty op ed of male gamers which is clearly a cash grab with no essence to it. Maybe stop linking to dumb articles and make a more valid point next time.
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Damn you first posted in this topic 11 hours ago and you're still salty about it.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

I have no argument so I'll attack the source, four pages in.

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action52 posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

I have no argument so I'll attack the source, four pages in.

Too bad the argument is the source eh.
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So what's your better idea on analyzing the sexist, racist or otherwise toxic behavior displayed from a portion of gamers?
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My idea would be to ignore gamers completely and focus on society at large, especially in comparison to the rest of the world.
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Darmik posted...

So what's your better idea on analyzing the sexist, racist or otherwise toxic behavior displayed from a portion of gamers?

My previous statement is the correct analyzation of the sexist and racist behavior displayed.
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TheCurseX2 posted...

"Toxicity in gaming" is a term coined by people that had weak banter, weak gaming skills, weak social ability.

If you can't handle my venomous shit talk, then you don't deserve to play the same game as me. Go back to The Sims. You're not ready to exist in my world.

And do you know why I talk so much trash? Because of studies like this. Because I know it gets into a person's head, it upsets them, it breaks them down spiritually and that makes them easier to dismantle and destroy and win. I'm not some fool, there's me vs. you and I don't like losing. Don't like it? Get better and win and then push your moral shit but until then you're going to sit there and fumble through trying to ignore me while I send you tilting so hard you will live the next twenty minutes of your life in vertigo.

Is this a new copypasta?
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