Current Events > Explain to me how TLJ undermines Star Wars SO much. *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I hear this often, and don't get it.

Because Luke has lost faith in the Jedi Order?

Because Rey is a really powerful padawan, but her parents were just random people?

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Yeah I never got it either. Star Wars fans really treat their older materials so sacred for some reason. That's why the Force Awakens is tolerated because it's so close to the original trilogy, even though the plot set up from Abrams is what I think hurt TLJ the most.

Besides, I feel like Luke was pretty justified in wanting to end the Jedi religion, and Yoda even agreed and probably helped him in thinking this way
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Sunhawk posted...

Because Rey is a really powerful padawan, but her parents were just random people?

This is mostly directed towards just TFA. Watch TFA again, it's clear they were building Rey's parents up to be somebody.
They still might do so in Ep9, explain it away as Kylo lying to Rey to get her on his side.
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fusespliff posted...

Sunhawk posted...

Because Rey is a really powerful padawan, but her parents were just random people?

This is mostly directed towards just TFA. Watch TFA again, it's clear they were building Rey's parents up to be somebody.
They still might do so in Ep9, explain it away as Kylo lying to Rey to get her on his side.

I interpreted as Kylo wanting her to realize the truth herself. He only told her once she basically realized the truth herself. But until she can get to that point, he probably wanted her to think she was meant for something greater, so that she can become powerful enough to rule the universe by his side
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Your parents were nobody.
Your grandparents on the other hand got the force.
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Light speed ramming.

/topic
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The only thing about the movie that I thought really did this was the whole "weaponizing hyperspace" thing.

Other than that it was just a really mediocre movie. Luke losing faith doesn't undermine Star Wars (I actually didn't mind this, it was kind of interesting), neither does Rey being super good for no reason, that one is just shitty/boring writing.

Honestly, Luke dying wouldn't have even bothered me that much if I had just heard him tell Rey that the Force would be with her always as they flew away.
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My personal biggest problem was how this is the first time we see Luke on screen again in like 30 years and they fuck up his character so much. He grows so much as a character from 4-6, but then in 8 they throw all of that out the window to give some edgy message about the jedi order. Like u fucking wut m8. Plus his death was the most random asspull thing ever and literally made me angry in the theater >_>

I guess my other problems were:
-The casino planet and the whole space chase were beyond stupid.
-Leia flying in space was so out of place and dumb
-Admiral Holdo just being an incompetent person all around
-There are ZERO scenes where 2 lightsabers clash. What the actual fuck.
-Rey feels like she only gets 10 minutes of training and she leaves and lifts a million boulders. Meanwhile Luke trained for half of Empire and couldn't even lift a X-wing. Plus the training was excellent character development for Luke, but felt really squandered for Rey.

Jokey, but serious things that bothered me:
-Rose's waaaaaaay hotter sister dying
-The cute A-wing pilot dying >_>
-Rose isn't really likable imo
-Literally 100's of armored stormtroopers died in the hanger during the hyperspace attack, yet unarmored Finn and Rose survive? lol ok
-Captain Phasma literally comes and goes so quickly, I almost missed it.
-*frees animals on the casino planet* "Now it was worth it." *Meanwhile all the child slaves are still trapped* lol
-The movie literally opens with a your momma joke. What the hell is that.



Honestly, the Rey parents thing doesn't bother me that much lol >_>
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For me the Luke thing is bad.

He went to the most evilest man in the universe and tried to win him over.. AND DID.

Now he thinks about killing one of his only living family members while they were sleeping. And people try to write this off as he was just thinking about it for a little bit. In our world this would be like someone grabbing a gun cocking it back and getting ready to put it to the head of a sleeping child. Moreover after he Fed up. He didn't fix anything. Literally because of Luke millions of people and 5 worlds blew up.

Rey being over powered is bad as well. She is doing advance skills with no training not even knowing these things exist. And they write it off by saying oh because Kylo gained power then that meant someone on the light side would gain power as well. How does that work, people can switch sides and beyond that. It would just mean even you train you are training someone to beat you.
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cjsdowg posted...

Kylo gained power then that meant someone on the light side would gain power as well.

And kylo was a skywalker and had actual training growing up. To add to your comment which I whole heartedly agree with.
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Also.. the message when it comes to Holdo is just to blindly follow orders. honestly there is no reason the Poe and others should have been ok with Holdo not telling that there was a plan. Remember it was not that she wasn't telling them the plan.. but they assumed that there was no plan. And people suggest crew should have just been ok with that. Using that logic Finn was wrong for not listening to Phasma .
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Fans: We want more luke!
Disney: Hey lets kill off our cash cow! hur durrr!

Just what we needed: another TLJ topic
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Rey is a Mary-Sue non-character.

The only "fault" she used to have was that she wanted to get back to Jakku or some shit and even that evaporated.
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Everything Luke does makes total sense.

1 - Snoke was messing with the minds of BOTH Luke and Kylo throughout their time together.

2 - Luke has had a history of being easily mind tricked. So has his father. It is a weakness both of them share. It makes sense that he would not recognize it since he believed the Sith to be gone. He didn't account for someone who just used the Force differently than a Sith to influence him.

3 - Luke has a history of being "aggressive" in the heat of the moment. He nearly killed his own father in blind rage. His father literally lost himself to his own anger. Again, it is a family trait they have.

4 - Luke has only had 2 Jedi ever as his direct teachers. Both of them basically left the universe behind when they failed. It was penance for failure. Luke would of course do the same thing as both Obi-Wan and Yoda did before him. You could argue he should have learned from that, but he was too full of grief, anger, and bitterness to see that.

5 - He was never afraid of Rey, rather that his influence on her could lead to disaster. I think he saw in her something better than what the Jedi Order ever was, and while he phrased it as a fear of her power, I think he was more afraid that his influence on her would lead her down a path he wants gone forever. He wants something better than a Jedi for her. All he knows is how to be a "Jedi" and a failure, at that point in the film.

6 - Everything he does to end the film is fucking fantastic. He realizes that despite him making fun of the whole legend of "Luke Skywalker", that legend of even more important than the man himself. Had he gone to fight himself, he would have died and been a rallying point for the First Order. Instead, what did he do? He fought off The First Order, saved The Resistance, made Kylo Ren look like a fool, and then disappeared without a scratch.

Thus why the film ends with kids talking about The Resistance and the legend of Luke Skywalker, instead of the First Order and the death of Luke Skywalker.
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I like that the OT characters end up living through tragic lives.

My biggest issue with the ST is the New Order and the Resistance. Feels so samey. I get they wanted to go for something more safe after the prequels however.

But I have no issue at all with characters like Luke and Han Solo not having perfect, heroic lives after the OT. I think that's great. Life isn't that easy. Just because you accomplish something amazing doesn't mean you are immune from failure. Sometimes hitting your peak and then failing hits even harder.

I also think it's good they're moving away from powerful bloodlines and all that. Apparently the books hint that Rey gained powers from her link to Kylo. I saw some people notice that Rey and Kylo have the same fighting style which supports that theory too. We'll see if they go with that in episode 9.
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fusespliff posted...

This is mostly directed towards just TFA. Watch TFA again, it's clear they were building Rey's parents up to be somebody.

No, it's not.
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I don't get it either TC.
Luke just became a copy of Yoda and Rei is just a copy of Luke. You could literally just swap the characters around and it's all the same story.

The only bad part of TLJ was that awful scene with Leia flying through space, and even then it was only because of how it was shot and how fucked up the lighting was.
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Plus his death was the most random asspull thing ever and literally made me angry in the theater >_>

lol
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Luke ending up like Yoda and Obi negates the story arc of the original six films. The next generation (Luke) succeeds where the old Jedi failed. What was the fucking point of Luke doing things differently if he suffers the same fate anyway? Lucas's Star Wars was not so cynical.
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BruceWayneJr posted...

Luke ending up like Yoda and Obi negates the story arc of the original six films. The next generation (Luke) succeeds where the old Jedi failed. What was the fucking point of Luke doing things differently if he suffers the same fate anyway? Lucas's Star Wars was not so cynical.

Obi-Wan and Yoda passed on the torch to the next generation, that's why they died. Not because they failed.
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Yeah Obi and Yoda hid away to fight back another day and for the hope that the Skywalker's can fight back.

Like exiled himself because he wanted the Jedi to fade away and because he believed he will never be this legend or solution that people expect him to be. In his mind the Jedi just end up creating more Vader's and Kylo's. He's not exactly wrong.

But he realises at the end that passing down hope to people who need it is far more important and that he can be a legend in his own way.
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They really should've just changed the movie so that Leia died as well. They had every opportunity to do that once Carrie Fisher died. Now it's going to be super awkward in Episode 9.

And Snoke pissed me the fuck off too. You set him up to basically be the Palpatine of the sequel trilogy, and then kill him off in the second movie? And without ever properly explaining who he is, where the fuck he came from, or how he's connected to Luke?

NeonOctopus posted...

My personal biggest problem was how this is the first time we see Luke on screen again in like 30 years and they fuck up his character so much. He grows so much as a character from 4-6, but then in 8 they throw all of that out the window to give some edgy message about the jedi order. Like u fucking wut m8. Plus his death was the most random asspull thing ever and literally made me angry in the theater >_>

I guess my other problems were:
-The casino planet and the whole space chase were beyond stupid.
-Leia flying in space was so out of place and dumb
-Admiral Holdo just being an incompetent person all around
-There are ZERO scenes where 2 lightsabers clash. What the actual fuck.
-Rey feels like she only gets 10 minutes of training and she leaves and lifts a million boulders. Meanwhile Luke trained for half of Empire and couldn't even lift a X-wing. Plus the training was excellent character development for Luke, but felt really squandered for Rey.

Jokey, but serious things that bothered me:
-Rose's waaaaaaay hotter sister dying
-The cute A-wing pilot dying >_>
-Rose isn't really likable imo
-Literally 100's of armored stormtroopers died in the hanger during the hyperspace attack, yet unarmored Finn and Rose survive? lol ok
-Captain Phasma literally comes and goes so quickly, I almost missed it.
-*frees animals on the casino planet* "Now it was worth it." *Meanwhile all the child slaves are still trapped* lol
-The movie literally opens with a your momma joke. What the hell is that.

Honestly, the Rey parents thing doesn't bother me that much lol >_>

My biggest beef was with Luke.

He was always pretty much hope personified. Even his own father, who was about to kill him, he never stopped believing there was goos in him, not once did he consider the possibility that he couldn't save him. But when he confronted Kylo Ren, that Luke was nowhere to be found.

The lightspeed ramming turns the entire eatablished lore on its ass, there is no way no one knew this was a possibility for hundreds of years, it was a horrible asspull.

They tried to have all the charactera to have witty banter like The Avengers have, for me, it just doesn't work. Avengers are super heroes, so it kind of fits, but Star Wars always felt a little more serious. They tried to force funny into this movie.

The confrontation between Finn and Phasma was complete and utter ass. And I hate how characters aren't fleshed out anymore as they were in the original trilogy.

Snoke was a waste.

Speaking of Luke and Kylo Ren, their fight was bullshit.

Holdo was a horrible character, sorry. Her big secret, which turnout to be the bullshit lightspeed ramming. And the fact that Holdo was expecting everyone to blindly follow her orders without question was morally questionable to say the least.

The choreography of the back to back fight of Kylo and Rey was godawful.

How Rose prevented Finn from destroying the battering ram or whatever it was called, what the actualy FUCK, was that. (And Rose was a crappy character overall).

The ending makes no sense. Over half the resistance got wiped out (thanks Rose) and everyone is seen smiling, happy, patting eachother on the back. It is such a disconnect from what happened.

Mark Hamill even agreed that Luke was ruined and then Disney forced him to keep quiet about it.

The whole movie was a mess.
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Nazanir posted...

NeonOctopus posted...

My personal biggest problem was how this is the first time we see Luke on screen again in like 30 years and they fuck up his character so much. He grows so much as a character from 4-6, but then in 8 they throw all of that out the window to give some edgy message about the jedi order. Like u fucking wut m8. Plus his death was the most random asspull thing ever and literally made me angry in the theater >_>

I guess my other problems were:
-The casino planet and the whole space chase were beyond stupid.
-Leia flying in space was so out of place and dumb
-Admiral Holdo just being an incompetent person all around
-There are ZERO scenes where 2 lightsabers clash. What the actual fuck.
-Rey feels like she only gets 10 minutes of training and she leaves and lifts a million boulders. Meanwhile Luke trained for half of Empire and couldn't even lift a X-wing. Plus the training was excellent character development for Luke, but felt really squandered for Rey.

Jokey, but serious things that bothered me:
-Rose's waaaaaaay hotter sister dying
-The cute A-wing pilot dying >_>
-Rose isn't really likable imo
-Literally 100's of armored stormtroopers died in the hanger during the hyperspace attack, yet unarmored Finn and Rose survive? lol ok
-Captain Phasma literally comes and goes so quickly, I almost missed it.
-*frees animals on the casino planet* "Now it was worth it." *Meanwhile all the child slaves are still trapped* lol
-The movie literally opens with a your momma joke. What the hell is that.

Honestly, the Rey parents thing doesn't bother me that much lol >_>

My biggest beef was with Luke.

He was always pretty much hope personified. Even his own father, who was about to kill him, he never stopped believing there was goos in him, not once did he consider the possibility that he couldn't save him. But when he confronted Kylo Ren, that Luke was nowhere to be found.

The lightspeed ramming turns the entire eatablished lore on its ass, there is no way no one knew this was a possibility for hundreds of years, it was a horrible asspull.

They tried to have all the charactera to have witty banter like The Avengers have, for me, it just doesn't work. Avengers are super heroes, so it kind of fits, but Star Wars always felt a little more serious. They tried to force funny into this movie.

The confrontation between Finn and Phasma was complete and utter ass. And I hate how characters aren't fleshed out anymore as they were in the original trilogy.

Snoke was a waste.

Speaking of Luke and Kylo Ren, their fight was bullshit.

Holdo was a horrible character, sorry. Her big secret, which turnout to be the bullshit lightspeed ramming. And the fact that Holdo was expecting everyone to blindly follow her orders without question was morally questionable to say the least.

The choreography of the back to back fight of Kylo and Rey was godawful.

How Rose prevented Finn from destroying the battering ram or whatever it was called, what the actualy FUCK, was that. (And Rose was a crappy character overall).

The ending makes no sense. Over half the resistance got wiped out (thanks Rose) and everyone is seen smiling, happy, patting eachother on the back. It is such a disconnect from what happened.

Mark Hamill even agreed that Luke was ruined and then Disney forced him to keep quiet about it.

The whole movie was a mess.

Nailed it.
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Back to Holdo's plan.

This is just so horrible. And people defend it in one of two ways.

One...

Oh she felt there was spy one board. This doesn't add up. There was no hints about this the whole movie. And even if that is what was was thinking. Rose found out who they were being tracked in two mins. So this makes Holdo's look even worse. And beyond that even if their was spy. When they landed on the planet the spy would have said said we are in on this world come get us.

Other people have just said Chain of Command. So now Star was is about just following order with out questioning them. Finn you should have listen to Phasma .. you don't question orders doubly so when it is women giving them. You questioning Phasma orders is Toxic Masculinity .
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Nazanir posted...

The choreography of the back to back fight of Kylo and Rey was godawful.

I did enjoy that part >_____>
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This movie does not deserve this many topics about it
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Characters fighting over the idiot ball, lazy/shitty writing, makes no sense that Luke is not only a junkie failure but a bitch ass coward who ran away. Theres so much wrong with the film it is not funny, my favorite stupid part though is if Luke went to the planet to die then why was there a map left to find him, why did Luke not follow through and kill himself via jumping off a cliff to his death or kill himself with his own lightsaber ??

Dude literally is living for nothing on the island if he claims Im here to die.
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Why didnt anyone acknowledge the fact that Poe was right in destroying the dreadnought?

If he didnt follow through with the original plan the entire Resistance would have been wiped out because of the hyper space tracking.
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@ViewtifulGrave

Poe was a shitty leader, he should have had their fighters(x wings) take out the enemy fighters before even having the bombers in the air, hell the bombers they used were worse then the Y-Wings as they were sitting ducks being such huge targets.

Y wings are way more maneuverable, have better defenses/offenses, and would get the job done just as well but few would be so vulnerable.
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In empire strikes back the rebels are fucked because they're vastly outnumbered by the empire and they manage to pull out a narrow victory and escape with extremely clever thinking and outsmarting their opponents.

In The last Jedi, it's the same thing except they won through sheer dumb luck and they were only in that position in the first place because they were fucking stupid.
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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

@ViewtifulGrave

Poe was a shitty leader, he should have had their fighters(x wings) take out the enemy fighters before even having the bombers in the air, hell the bombers they used were worse then the Y-Wings as they were sitting ducks being such huge targets.

Y wings are way more maneuverable, have better defenses/offenses, and would get the job done just as well but few would be so vulnerable.

Those Ships should have never been commissioned in the first place. On out of control tie-fighter took out 3 of them .
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Exactly, when I saw that shit I was literally thinking "what fucking idiot approved these fucking shit tier ships ?!", ships from the OT and PT were not this bad or easy to obliterate, their size, being so slow, and being so weak is a huge "you failed in all aspects and need to not only be fired but used as an example of how NOT to design a ship".

I'm also amazed at how stupid Poe was if he knew they were so bad, hold them back until nothing will attack them, what would have happened if all the bombers had been destroyed before even one could drop it's bombs ? then not only would Poe have disobeyed orders but he would have lost shit loads of fighters/bombers/people AND failed to accomplish his goal.

A good leader would never make that blunder, but expecting a good leader in the ST is like expecting people to make smart choices in a horror film, it rarely happens.

@cjsdowg
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TLJ mostly just undermines TFA. Rian came in and smashed all of JJ's toys.

Luke's arc didn't bother me, personally. We haven't seen him for what, 30 years? That's enough time for him to become a completely different person since we last saw him in RotJ.
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ViewtifulGrave posted...

Why didnt anyone acknowledge the fact that Poe was right in destroying the dreadnought?

If he didnt follow through with the original plan the entire Resistance would have been wiped out because of the hyper space tracking.

Maybe him delaying the escape gave the First Order time to lock on for hyperspace tracking.

I dunno it was a dumb sequence.

- General Hux looks worried when the Resistance fleet escapes
- Snoke attacks him for his failure by slamming his face to the floor
- General Hux says not to worry, the Resistance is tied to a string
- In the throne room Snoke is surprised to hear that theyre hyperspace tracking.

Its his ship, how was he unaware about the revolutionary new invention of hyperspace tracking having been created on his ship? This guy is able to bridge two minds that are light years apart. When the escape ships start getting destoryed he automatically knows whats happening and shows Rey by opening the screens and having her look into the magnifying lens. Yet hes unaware about such an important thing on his ship.
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Poe's attack at the start only failed because a freak accident caused one bomber to blow up basically all the other bombers because they were sent in such a tight formation. If they were spread out even a little bit they would have only lost a couple and Poe's gamble would have been seen as a major victory. Plot contrivance was required to make him look like an idiot.
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iPhone_7 posted...

- General Hux looks worried when the Resistance fleet escapes
- Snoke attacks him for his failure by slamming his face to the floor
- General Hux says not to worry, the Resistance is tied to a string
- In the throne room Snoke is surprised to hear that theyre hyperspace tracking.

Its his ship, how was he unaware about the revolutionary new invention of hyperspace tracking having been created on his ship? This guy is able to bridge two minds that are light years apart. When the escape ships start getting destoryed he automatically knows whats happening and shows Rey by opening the screens and having her look into the magnifying lens. Yet hes unaware about such an important thing on his ship.

itsbadwriting.jpg
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The thing that bugs me most about the movie was the whole story arc of the one lady not telling anyone about her plan, and then mr hothead ruins everything and his plan gets most of the resistance killed.
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My problem is that the villains are completely squandered.
Kylo isn't threathening at all. He has been beaten every time so far.

And that Snoke, he had, what, like 3 minutes of screen time?
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